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  1. #1771
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Is...that supposed to be Damian? And....Robin Steph? The hell is this book?
    Can’t forget Robin Hood’s 1 & 2!

  2. #1772
    Fantastic Member Shen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    I also liked the OG reason since it was evolution for Damian's character. His 1st attempt at fighting crime his own way. Not Bruce 's or Dick's. Not trying to fix the world the Al Ghul way.

    I liked a lot about the run. Damian reaching out to Jason showed maturity. He ditched his childish mindset that Jason was lesser / a failure because of his death.

    He forgave RH

    He handled Crush well
    He took feedback from Percy's run and appointed Emi as his 2nd in command to handle the people part of the team since he sucks at interpersonal relationships.

    He went back to hell to save Djinn showing just how far he'd go for a team mate. Plus it was a badass boss move.

    There was a lot to like about that run and contrary to what some say it developed Damian's character further. People sometimes forget that growth isn't a straight line. People sometimes falter, lapse, err or deviate. Sometimes it's backwards when mistakes are made so I don't mind Damian stumbling or falling flat on his face. Heck I don't even mind so much if he still struggles with old habits. Change isn't easy and Damian shouldn't be/isn't perfect.

    I also really liked that he put together a completely diverse team.
    Same. Throughout all this, I perfectly understood why Damian acted and reacted the way he did. It wasn't pretty, but what he did most times was consistent to his character.

    My only problem is exactly what you said - most people are unable to understand this as a character that's growing. He was portrayed as someone losing his mind and becoming more unstable toward the end. Despite all the good that he did, despite all he endured and adapted to - all they're going to see are his faults and mistakes.

    And they certainly pulled no punches, especially when Alfred compared him to Ra's when he was going after Jason. I mean, what did you expect? His team almost DIED and Jason was the only person beside Red Arrow who dealt with the information for the team. Damian's angry and betrayed, and Alfred's like nah - Jason's family he wouldn't do that. Family for Damian is a mother who orchestrated his death, a father with the emotional capacity of a rock, and siblings who he can't seem to understand after Ric appeared. But don't think about all that, coz FAMILY. God, might as well have been doing a Dominic Toretto impersonation.

    Also, Isn't it Ironic that both Father and Son had the same idea to create Super Secret Prisons for criminals who keep destroying lives when they inevitably escape?

    I still don't understand how Damian convinced Djinn to mindwipe the Villains and give them new personalities, especially after he broke her trust by imprisoning people the way she was imprisoned. And the team was apparently fine with it too. Damian's worst offense at that point was doing something his father did. His team (besides Emi) had no knowledge of it and was pissed off because of that, but they're all guilty of the mind-wipes.
    Last edited by Shen; 06-11-2021 at 10:43 PM.
    "What is better? To be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" ~ Paarthurnax

  3. #1773
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Is...that supposed to be Damian? And....Robin Steph? The hell is this book?
    I don't think it is. Note that the hooded Robin is holding a staff. I think that's actually Tim, and the other male Robin is Dick.
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  4. #1774
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shen View Post
    Same. Throughout all this, I perfectly understood why Damian acted and reacted the way he did. It wasn't pretty, but what he did most times was consistent to his character.

    My only problem is exactly what you said - most people are unable to understand this as a character that's growing. He was portrayed as someone losing his mind and becoming more unstable toward the end. Despite all the good that he did, despite all he endured and adapted to - all they're going to see are his faults and mistakes.

    And they certainly pulled no punches, especially when Alfred compared him to Ra's when he was going after Jason. I mean, what did you expect? His team almost DIED and Jason was the only person beside Red Arrow who dealt with the information for the team. Damian's angry and betrayed, and Alfred's like nah - Jason's family he wouldn't do that. Family for Damian is a mother who orchestrated his death, a father with the emotional capacity of a rock, and siblings who he can't seem to understand after Ric appeared. But don't think about all that, coz FAMILY. God, might as well have been doing a Dominic Toretto impersonation.

    Also, Isn't it Ironic that both Father and Son had the same idea to create Super Secret Prisons for criminals who keep destroying lives when they inevitably escape?

    I still don't understand how Damian convinced Djinn to mindwipe the Villains and give them new personalities, especially after he broke her trust by imprisoning people the way she was imprisoned. And the team was apparently fine with it too. Damian's worst offense at that point was doing something his father did. His team (besides Emi) had no knowledge of it and was pissed off because of that, but they're all guilty of the mind-wipes.

    Alfred's a huge hypocrite.
    When he was giving his speech about jason did he forget that Bruce literally beat the **** out of Jason like a few week's before? Did he give Bruce the same talk?

    Did he forget that he himself was taunting and mocking a crying Penguin in Bruce's private jail that same week?

    Damian was doing what his father taught him. So the Ra's line was just a lie. BS.

    The double standards never ceases to amaze me.

    The whole team went along with the mind wiping. Damian didn't force them into anything. He didn't take advantage of any of them. Again BS.

  5. #1775
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Yes, they did. Like you, their versions of Damian and Talia are strictly from the animated movies overseen by Geoff "I'm nOT RACIST" Johns. Comics Talia from before Johns, Didio, and Simone was a complicated character who did want children and would have been a great mother if it weren't for a pesky past that wouldn't let her go.

    Remember, both Tallant and Ibn turned out well. Both of them either never met Bruce or didn't met him until adulthood yet were capable of being moral, and this is a big thing as none of the Bats particularly Bruce are, ethical beings.

    If you read comics, including Breach (I apologize for suggesting that, but Talia, Luthor, and the Senator are interesting even if the rest is crap), the LexCorp years in Action Comics, Superman, Man of Steel, and Superboy, Gotham Nights, Our Worlds at War, and Hush (again I apologize as it's a very mediocre storyline that is nothing like the animated movie, but superior to the movie even with its weaknesses), you get a woman who is doing the best she can in a world that doesn't like brown women.

    She even provides sandwiches to hungry teenagers without prompting. Cuddles babies. Gets sarcastic with Superman. Snubs Bruce...a lot as this was during the period where she was completely same and decided that he was toxic and while she will always love him she needed to avoid him and move on.

    That last part is why she has been treated so poorly: a female character getting over a male character?! In DC?! A bat character no less?! One she was created to obsess over?!

    NOOOOOO!!!!

    Obviously she must become an obsessive, manipulative villainess...but only if she's not white.
    The animated movie were based on Morrision's work hence the Rape and Heretic.
    Not sure of Didio's and John's opinion on Talia but Morrison felt that Talia was out of Bruce's league. He felt that Bruce won't be stimulation for an ambitious and intelligent woman like Talia whose dreams and operations are on a global scale and grander. He said that it never made much sense to him why Talia would be into a guy like Bruce who was emotionally childish.

    So he broke them up and made Bruce a means to an end for Talia. A tool.

  6. #1776
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Damian is in Batman vs. Bigby! A Wolf in Gotham, A fables 6 issues Black Label Series out in September by Willingham, Brian Level, Jay Leisten, and Lee Loughridge.





    lol This reminds me of Neal Adams last Batman work. Batman/Ras Al Ghul. That book was bonkers.

  7. #1777
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    The animated movie were based on Morrision's work hence the Rape and Heretic.
    Not sure of Didio's and John's opinion on Talia but Morrison felt that Talia was out of Bruce's league. He felt that Bruce won't be stimulation for an ambitious and intelligent woman like Talia whose dreams and operations are on a global scale and grander. He said that it never made much sense to him why Talia would be into a guy like Bruce who was emotionally childish.

    So he broke them up and made Bruce a means to an end for Talia. A tool.
    But I think in the movie Talia said she loved Bruce, and I had the feeling she really did, of course, used him as a tool, but was also in love and heart broken for not being corresponded.
    And about Bruce I feel like he will likes any sexy pretty woman that try something with him (but I didn't see all the movies), I still don't get the scene he is dreaming with he and 3 women in the bed.

  8. #1778
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    And I think Talia could likes Bruce because he has many amazing abilities, is strong, is pretty with a nice voice, cult without being boring and is good for her? Maybe she could feel like "he is just in the wrong side, but with a little change we could be great together"? So the second best choice was making Damian?

    My opinion of what could be Talia's opinion.

  9. #1779
    Fantastic Member Shen's Avatar
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    God, I'm beating on a dead horse here, but just humor me once more.

    It's always bothered me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Djinn's brother Elias invade heaven and defeat Michael? And then the team shows up and their efforts managed to stop him. Because if that's how it went - there are soo many things that are wrong with that.

    Firstly, Michael is one of the most powerful beings in the DC Multiverse, he scales to around Lucifer Morningstar/Samael's level of power.

    Secondly, I don't buy the idea of a random 4000+ year old evil genie surprising(Cosmic Awareness ffs) and defeating a (at least Spectre level) being almost as old as the DC Universe itself. (It's hinted that Elias is Lucifer, and they tried to convey that with the gambling and clubs, but that's probably hyperbole)

    Lastly, if Elias could defeat Michael (a nigh-omnipotent being) - how am I expected to believe that the Titans could defeat a guy like that?!
    Last edited by Shen; 06-12-2021 at 10:53 PM.
    "What is better? To be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" ~ Paarthurnax

  10. #1780
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebeca Armus View Post
    And I think Talia could likes Bruce because he has many amazing abilities, is strong, is pretty with a nice voice, cult without being boring and is good for her? Maybe she could feel like "he is just in the wrong side, but with a little change we could be great together"? So the second best choice was making Damian?

    My opinion of what could be Talia's opinion.
    Yeah, Talia's not some lovestruck teenager. She liked Bruce because she saw him as exceptional and really liked him for that.

  11. #1781
    Mighty Member Astralabius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    The animated movie were based on Morrision's work hence the Rape and Heretic.
    Not sure of Didio's and John's opinion on Talia but Morrison felt that Talia was out of Bruce's league. He felt that Bruce won't be stimulation for an ambitious and intelligent woman like Talia whose dreams and operations are on a global scale and grander. He said that it never made much sense to him why Talia would be into a guy like Bruce who was emotionally childish.

    So he broke them up and made Bruce a means to an end for Talia. A tool.
    Morrison confused Talia with Ra's. Talia always wanted freedom, she loved Bruce because he showed her that there was another way.
    Wanting an heir, global ambitions, wanting to kill lots of people, all of this was Ra's. Not Talia.

  12. #1782
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shen View Post
    God, I'm beating on a dead horse here, but just humor me once more.

    It's always bothered me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Djinn's brother Elias invade heaven and defeat Michael? And then the team shows up and their efforts managed to stop him. Because if that's how it went - there are soo many things that are wrong with that.

    Firstly, Michael is one of the most powerful beings in the DC Multiverse, he scales to around Lucifer Morningstar/Samael's level of power.

    Secondly, I don't buy the idea of a random 4000+ year old evil genie surprising(Cosmic Awareness ffs) and defeating a (at least Spectre level) being almost as old as the DC Universe itself. (It's hinted that Elias is Lucifer, and they tried to convey that with the gambling and clubs, but that's probably hyperbole)

    Lastly, if Elias could defeat Michael (a nigh-omnipotent being) - how am I expected to believe that the Titans could defeat a guy like that?!
    I think you put more thought into this than people who wrote that story.

  13. #1783
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebeca Armus View Post
    And I think Talia could likes Bruce because he has many amazing abilities, is strong, is pretty with a nice voice, cult without being boring and is good for her? Maybe she could feel like "he is just in the wrong side, but with a little change we could be great together"? So the second best choice was making Damian?

    My opinion of what could be Talia's opinion.
    That's pretty spot on. Talia did love Bruce and Ra's used her as a Honey pot to sway Batman to join with Ra's.

    Personally, I agree with Morrison that Talia is out of Bruce's
    league. She can do much better than an emotionally constipated man-child who hangs out with teens in a Bat infested cave.

    Talia is a Princess and deserves a Prince who dots on her. She deserves the Mortia Adams treatment.

  14. #1784
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That's pretty spot on. Talia did love Bruce and Ra's used her as a Honey pot to sway Batman to join with Ra's.

    Personally, I agree with Morrison that Talia is out of Bruce's
    league. She can do much better than an emotionally constipated man-child who hangs out with teens in a Bat infested cave.

    Talia is a Princess and deserves a Prince who dots on her. She deserves the Mortia Adams treatment.
    Dndndndndndndndnxn I think she could fall in love by him, think! Damian is also a Prince, but we he should stay with who make him happy and will not necessarily be a princess, Diana is also a Princess... and I ship her with Bruce. What should be Talia pair for you?

  15. #1785
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    Morrison confused Talia with Ra's. Talia always wanted freedom, she loved Bruce because he showed her that there was another way.
    I more or less agree with this. Traditionally Talia has only feared one person, alive. Her Father Ra's Al Ghul. We have seen Talia out scheme Lex Luthor. We've seen her assault Dr. Light, Green Lantern and other Justice League members, manipulate Superman and dictate marching orders to Cheetah, Felix Faust, Metallo and etc. Yet it is a non-meta, Ra's Al Ghul that scares her. The only person she has ever seen successfully defy and defeat her Father, is Batman. I got the attraction on Talia's part. And I got why it has lasted so long.

    Someone described Talia as "being in love and in hate, with Bruce." Funny enough, I always thought Talia's ideal match would have been someone like Lex or Slade.

    I think she truly believes (as her recent appearance suggest) that Bruce is a bad influence on Damian and I think we will see her, in the future, scheming to erode that relationship.
    Last edited by PowerPlay25; 06-13-2021 at 09:42 AM.

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