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  1. #1711
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Damian has a reputation for having the worst fans. Today I believeit

    @Garrazza how you can advocate for fans to harass creators even when you yourself said that The old TT artist lost his job over it,

    That Gleb tried to make Damian Brown but failed.

    Someone fired meyers, someone said no to Gleb. That person is the one that decides of Damian should be brown.

    You comment that artists in America don't know what whitewashing is clearly a lie to support your pov that harassment is good.

    You yourself admitted just now 2 artists who wanted to avoid whitewashing Damian. Why would you assume the others don't?
    Can you show me any evidence to support this assumption? especially when you make proof of the opposite?

    My kids are mixed race. I would like them to be represented more but I don't think harassing people who don't have the power to change things is the way to go
    When did I advocate for harassing creators? Pointing out that putting Damian in a suicide vest isn't harassment, but pointing out that Damian should be colored brown is harassment? I don't get that.

    Gleb successfully colored Damian correctly when he colored the first issue, but penciling, inking, and coloring a comic is a lot of work for one person, so the second issue was done by someone else and they colored Damian as white. I doubt the new colorist was directed by the higher ups to color him as white. The most likely answer is that, unlike Gleb, the new colorist is unaware of the implicit bias to color characters not explicitly stated otherwise as white. Pointing out to them that it would be great if they could continue doing what Gleb was doing is not harassment. What would be harassment is if they were accused of being racist for coloring him white and not brown and bombarding their social media with those false accusations until they were forced to leave.

    As an American, I can say that a lot people here don't know what whitewashing is. Just because we know what it is doesn't mean everyone else does. For a lot people, racism is seen as being mean to people of color and not a complex system of oppression that permeates all facets of life. Do you think all creators are aware of the intricacies of racism manifests itself in art and pop culture, such as whitewashing? Some are, and some aren't. Some may know a little bit, some may know a lot, and some may not be aware at all about how it manifests. Being proactive in spreading awareness of how little acts like how a character's skin is colored or how they act or how they are treated is important and should not be diminished.

    Glass wasn't fired for his little stunt, but Meyers was fired for being respectful and proactive. That is racism, but not the only way that racism is present in comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    People please don't harass writers and artists. They don't own the intellectual property that is Damian Wayne Robin. Writers and Artists have to have certain changes approved by higher ups.

    Priest has mentioned this, Glass and Williamson also touched on this. Gleb was denied by TPTB and Jonboy was fired for attempting to to give us a brown Damian. Clearly the people who decide how Damian is portrayed are behind the scenes
    The fact that there are those on the inside that are trying to be a positive force for change but are thwarted by a racist company shows that we should be supporting those individuals while also trying to convert others that would potentially be sympathetic to that cause. WB/DC can be changed from within just as much as it can from without. If there is enough internal support within a company, the company can’t fire all of them, but right now the number small, so it’s risky, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted at all. Meyers being retaliated against should not be a sign to give up and stop trying to inform creators. It should be a reminder this is going to be a long and hard process with no easy answers or solutions, but trying something is better than not trying at all.

    But apparently I’m in the minority here and I’m not capable of giving thorough and thoughtful explanations for why and how racism in comics should be addressed, so I’ll stop here.

  2. #1712
    Mighty Member Astralabius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    In his first appearance Damian beheaded a villain, he has iirc kidnapped several other heros (his first Teen Titans team and Jon Kent iirc) and has run an illeagal prison, the the Bomb Vest doesn't seem that out of character to me.
    Damian went through a lot of character developement since his first appearance and most of the other stuff you mentioned is from the pretty unpopular Rebirth Teen Titans book. Damian fans didn't like Percy's run either from all I can tell, the Glass run was just worse and that's why people stopped complaining about the Percy run. I don't think there are a lot of people out there who like Damian because of anything you listed.

    It's also not just the fact that Damian used a bomb vest that's the problem, it's that in one of the first issues of the run Glass goes out of his way to make sure the reader knows that Damian is not white, didn't grow up in america and doesn't feel like he belongs in Gotham. All interesting things to talk about, if it wasn't followed by writing Damian in a pretty villainous way in the very same issue and everything that followed.
    Glass linked Damian being non-white and non-american to him turning evil. That was deliberate, not an accident, the same way it was deliberate that Damian suddenly had a bomb vest in his fight with Jason, which didn't even had a story purpose, the bomb vest really didn't need to be in there.

    You can't act like the decision to give Damian bomb vest had nothing to do with Damian's ethnicity or cultural identity, especially not when the writer wanted us to know that Damian was middle-eastern and highlighted Damian's "otherness" in a book whose goal was to make him a villain.
    Last edited by Astralabius; 06-05-2021 at 11:00 PM.

  3. #1713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astralabius View Post
    You can't act like the decision to give Damian bomb vest had nothing to do with Damian's ethnicity or cultural identity,
    The thing is that Damian's cultural identity isn't really middle eastern, he grew up on remote island, was trained by a lot of different teachers that came from all over the world (the LoA is in general kind cultural all over the place), and he is not a muslim.

    To me highlighting Damian as middle-eastern was more out of character than the bomb vest.

    And in general if you want to avoid middle-eastern terrorist stereotypes, having a character who was raised by terrorist organization like the League of Assassins is just not a really good place to start with.
    That's why in my opinion Damian is not exactly the best character if you want to push for "middle eastern representation".
    Last edited by Aahz; 06-06-2021 at 02:37 AM.

  4. #1714
    Incredible Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    In his first appearance Damian beheaded a villain, he has iirc kidnapped several other heros (his first Teen Titans team and Jon Kent iirc) and has run an illeagal prison, the the Bomb Vest doesn't seem that out of character to me.
    I don't really care about his color skin, but boy the Bomb Vest fiasco is OOC as hell. Damian is a proud person, overwhelmingly so. Bomb Vest fiasco is basically him challenged Jason, got horribly beaten up, then pulled a suicide threat move and threaten to bring Jason in it, which turned out to be fake. It's pathetic as hell, only second to the time when Damian got captured by Killer Croc and shouted "Mommy!"

  5. #1715
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    When did I advocate for harassing creators? Pointing out that putting Damian in a suicide vest isn't harassment, but pointing out that Damian should be colored brown is harassment? I don't get that.

    Gleb successfully colored Damian correctly when he colored the first issue, but penciling, inking, and coloring a comic is a lot of work for one person, so the second issue was done by someone else and they colored Damian as white. I doubt the new colorist was directed by the higher ups to color him as white. The most likely answer is that, unlike Gleb, the new colorist is unaware of the implicit bias to color characters not explicitly stated otherwise as white. Pointing out to them that it would be great if they could continue doing what Gleb was doing is not harassment. What would be harassment is if they were accused of being racist for coloring him white and not brown and bombarding their social media with those false accusations until they were forced to leave.

    As an American, I can say that a lot people here don't know what whitewashing is. Just because we know what it is doesn't mean everyone else does. For a lot people, racism is seen as being mean to people of color and not a complex system of oppression that permeates all facets of life. Do you think all creators are aware of the intricacies of racism manifests itself in art and pop culture, such as whitewashing? Some are, and some aren't. Some may know a little bit, some may know a lot, and some may not be aware at all about how it manifests. Being proactive in spreading awareness of how little acts like how a character's skin is colored or how they act or how they are treated is important and should not be diminished.

    Glass wasn't fired for his little stunt, but Meyers was fired for being respectful and proactive. That is racism, but not the only way that racism is present in comics.


    The fact that there are those on the inside that are trying to be a positive force for change but are thwarted by a racist company shows that we should be supporting those individuals while also trying to convert others that would potentially be sympathetic to that cause. WB/DC can be changed from within just as much as it can from without. If there is enough internal support within a company, the company can’t fire all of them, but right now the number small, so it’s risky, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted at all. Meyers being retaliated against should not be a sign to give up and stop trying to inform creators. It should be a reminder this is going to be a long and hard process with no easy answers or solutions, but trying something is better than not trying at all.

    But apparently I’m in the minority here and I’m not capable of giving thorough and thoughtful explanations for why and how racism in comics should be addressed, so I’ll stop here.


    Don't do this. Everyone's voice is welcome here.

    Over coming racism is something we all have to unite against, It's also something that's tricky to combat like you said.

    I'm just wary of fans hounding creators.

  6. #1716
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    I don't really care about his color skin, but boy the Bomb Vest fiasco is OOC as hell. Damian is a proud person, overwhelmingly so. Bomb Vest fiasco is basically him challenged Jason, got horribly beaten up, then pulled a suicide threat move and threaten to bring Jason in it, which turned out to be fake. It's pathetic as hell, only second to the time when Damian got captured by Killer Croc and shouted "Mommy!"
    Yeah, Damian being biracial is one of the reasons I've never really cared that much about his skin tone or that brief period where artists couldn't decide if his eyes were green or blue (I actually kinda wish they kept the blue eyes. It would have really stood out with his tan skin). Besides, not every person of Middle Eastern descent is dark skinned.

    That said, the suicide vest did bother the hell out of me, in a Titans run that was already bothering the hell out of me. Aside from it just being a REALLY bad look, having the Middle Eastern kid strap a bomb to his chest (regardless of whether or not Glass intended for it to come off that way), it made Damian look like a bitch. My son ain't no bitch lol

    Every attempt Glass made at making Damian a badass just made him look like a discount Jason. Pre-Flashpoint Jason, anyway. A paranoid, unstable, emotionally weak child with zero sense of self awareness. Which, to be fair, were things that he was when he started out. But he grew past most of that a long time ago.

  7. #1717
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The thing is that Damian's cultural identity isn't really middle eastern, he grew up on remote island, was trained by a lot of different teachers that came from all over the world (the LoA is in general kind cultural all over the place), and he is not a muslim.

    To me highlighting Damian as middle-eastern was more out of character than the bomb vest.

    And in general if you want to avoid middle-eastern terrorist stereotypes, having a character who was raised by terrorist organization like the League of Assassins is just not a really good place to start with.
    That's why in my opinion Damian is not exactly the best character if you want to push for "middle eastern representation".
    Which is probably why DC didn't push the representation angle. They don't push representation on Talia or Ra'is either. Yeah.... like you said, culturally, the League of Shadows isn't really Middle Eastern. So that angle doesn't make a lot of sense.

  8. #1718
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    What's the current status of Titus, Bat-Cow, and Goliath?

  9. #1719
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    What's the current status of Titus, Bat-Cow, and Goliath?
    I think it's mentioned in Robin #1 preview... yeah. Steph said they're all at a farm somewhere.

    I imagine with no proof that it's the same farm in the Bat-cow story by Dan Didio a while back

    Now what would a Goliath pen looks like...

  10. #1720
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Robin (2021-) 001-003.jpg

    This is actually my favorite panel from the entire first issue. Williamson addressed why Damian's pets aren't around with one line and that's all you need. That's very competent of him.

  11. #1721
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yeah, Damian being biracial is one of the reasons I've never really cared that much about his skin tone or that brief period where artists couldn't decide if his eyes were green or blue (I actually kinda wish they kept the blue eyes. It would have really stood out with his tan skin). Besides, not every person of Middle Eastern descent is dark skinned.
    Just look at Talia. It doesn't make sense for Damian to have darker skin than his mother. Darker skin than his father? Sure. But not his mother. Which doesn't make him all that dark.

  12. #1722
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    scan49.jpg

    About Damian long hair talked before, I made some tests, not went so well as I wanted but I liked the last one enough ^^

  13. #1723
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Just look at Talia. It doesn't make sense for Damian to have darker skin than his mother. Darker skin than his father? Sure. But not his mother. Which doesn't make him all that dark.
    Ah, but Talia skin tone also change, so based on her skin is also hard to say how would be Damian's skin

    (Again, I know could be anything between them, but Bruce's skin color is the same, but Talia's changes so much...)
    Last edited by Rebeca Armus; 06-07-2021 at 08:37 PM.

  14. #1724
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    Robin (2021-) 001-003.jpg

    This is actually my favorite panel from the entire first issue. Williamson addressed why Damian's pets aren't around with one line and that's all you need. That's very competent of him.
    I knowwww isn't it the purest thing ever? TuT

  15. #1725
    Incredible Member Rebeca Armus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Which is probably why DC didn't push the representation angle. They don't push representation on Talia or Ra'is either. Yeah.... like you said, culturally, the League of Shadows isn't really Middle Eastern. So that angle doesn't make a lot of sense.
    Agree, but I personally like when then use Middle Easteen elements as clothes and food, it's just nice, but Comics are kind lame with this things, you know? It's not when you listen things like "did you know they traveled 6 months for know more About this culture and had 2 professors for consultation about the script???" Nop, comics are like a big mix of some culture that try to not be a big stereotype and sometimes don't do this very well.

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