Riri williams: Ironheart appreciation 2021

[9th.]

I can see why people would be bothered by Black creators not getting enough attention. That should be addressed.

But I don't see why she needs to be connected to Tony beforehand. I've seen some say Rhodey's niece could've been Ironheart, but Idk why that would've been better

The reaction wouldn't have been any better if it were Lila. Jane, Sam, Kara and Cho still got hate even though they've been around. The story might've been better but there still would've been backlash.

[CosmiComic]

The reaction would've been any better if it were Lila. Jane, Sam, Kara and Cho still got hate even though they've been around. The story might've been better but there still would've been backlash.

I see. By Kara you're referring to Supergirl?

Anyway, I think she just needs more time to be established. Maybe as the heroes become more diverse, readers will become more used to them and the backlash will die down.

Idk if Lila would've necessarily better as Ironheart.

[9th.]

I see. By Kara you're referring to Supergirl?

Anyway, I think she just needs more time to be established. Maybe as the heroes become more diverse, readers will become more used to them and the backlash will die down.

Idk if Lila would've necessarily better as Ironheart.

Nah thats my bad, I meant to but Carol instead of Kara

[CosmiComic]

Nah thats my bad, I meant to but Carol instead of Kara

No problem. Carol, why was her becoming Captain Marvel even controversial? Mar-Vell had been dead for years and several others had taken the mantle

[9th.]

No problem. Carol, why was her becoming Captain Marvel even controversial? Mar-Vell had been dead for years and several others had taken the mantle

A lot of people liked her Ms. Marvel costume and personality. They also didn't like the massive push she was getting and there were complaints that marvel was making her look too "manly".

[CosmiComic]

A lot of people liked her Ms. Marvel costume and personality. They also didn't like the massive push she was getting and there were complaints that marvel was making her look too "manly".

I don't get the complaint about "manly." Every heroine is overdrawn as a White male gaze fantasy of sexist stereotypes. But Carol has short hair and she's a "man."

Her personality has been questionable in Civil War II, but most hero v hero stuff does that. Otherwise I don't find her personality very objectionable (although maybe I haven't read enough of her). I know she's not everyone's favorite, but her getting pushed doesn't somehow damage others' favorites, does it?

[Will Evans]

I don't get the complaint about "manly." Every heroine is overdrawn as a White male gaze fantasy of sexist stereotypes. But Carol has short hair and she's a "man."

Her personality has been questionable in Civil War II, but most hero v hero stuff does that. Otherwise I don't find her personality very objectionable (although maybe I haven't read enough of her). I know she's not everyone's favorite, but her getting pushed doesn't somehow damage others' favorites, does it?

The complaint is that she started to be drawn without the male gaze in mind.

[CosmiComic]

The complaint is that she started to be drawn without the male gaze in mind.

Yeah. I don't see that as a problem. The male gaze stuff always bothered me. I understand others disagree, but, IMO, they're wrong.

[Celgress]

The complaint is that she started to be drawn without the male gaze in mind.

At the end of the day, men have historically made up the bulk of comic book readers (the actual floppies), and likely to a degree still do. Keeping the majority male readership happy so they won't stop buying the product is a fact of business. I'm not saying I agree with this business approach but I do understand it from a purely ruthless logic mindset.

[Huntsman Spider]

The complaint is that she started to be drawn without the male gaze in mind.

At the end of the day, men have historically made up the bulk of comic book readers (the actual floppies), and likely to a degree still do. Keeping the majority male readership happy so they won't stop buying the product is a fact of business. I'm not saying I agree with this business approach but I do understand it from a purely ruthless logic mindset.

Pretty much, sadly. The greater problem, I think, is that the (somewhat) common critique of mainstream superhero comics as fodder for (overgrown) adolescent male power (and sex) fantasies isn't entirely an unfair one, given that there is still an unfortunate level of cliquishness and exclusionary attitudes that makes for a poor mix with an industry working to branch out and appeal to more (kinds of) people. I mean, as hardcore as the hardcore fans are, they're not the only ones who exist or matter, and that they act like that's so to the point some have started (or supported) rather abusive, and even threatening, online campaigns against anyone who doesn't fit their paradigm of what a comics fan or creator should be speaks, at least to me, of potentially dangerous amounts of self-entitlement and immaturity.

[Celgress]

Pretty much, sadly. The greater problem, I think, is that the (somewhat) common critique of mainstream superhero comics as fodder for (overgrown) adolescent male power (and sex) fantasies isn't entirely an unfair one, given that there is still an unfortunate level of cliquishness and exclusionary attitudes that makes for a poor mix with an industry working to branch out and appeal to more (kinds of) people. I mean, as hardcore as the hardcore fans are, they're not the only ones who exist or matter, and that they act like that's so to the point some have started (or supported) rather abusive, and even threatening, online campaigns against anyone who doesn't fit their paradigm of what a comics fan or creator should be speaks, at least to me, of potentially dangerous amounts of self-entitlement and immaturity.

Indeed your assessment is correct. As with Pro Wrestling, American Comic Books are at their core a male-driven soap opera. Manga in Japan doesn't have this problem to the same degree because it has long embraced genres other than action & sci-fi. I'm going to say something vulgar here but it's true to a great degree; the predominantly male reader wants to be the male characters (mainly but not always the heroic ones) and he wants to have sex with the female characters in this power fantasy. That is what it usually boils down to if you strip everything else away, sadly.

[CosmiComic]

I hope this becomes less true as time goes on. I think it helps if Marvel doesn't capitulate to more extremist fans of this variety. I know I won't miss sexualization of comic characters, for instance.

[Celgress]

I hope this becomes less true as time goes on. I think it helps if Marvel doesn't capitulate to more extremist fans of this variety. I know I won't miss sexualization of comic characters, for instance.

The problem is can they replace the core audience fast enough not to go out of business more so the floppies than the IP as a whole? Keep in mind, women have other things they traditionally like also competing for their attention and more importantly dollars same goes for LGBTQ+ people. At the end of the day, capitalism is about making money if a product doesn't make money it will eventually vanish from the marketplace.

[Huntsman Spider]

Indeed your assessment is correct. As with Pro Wrestling, American Comic Books are at their core a male-driven soap opera. Manga in Japan doesn't have this problem to the same degree because it has long embraced genres other than action & sci-fi. I'm going to say something vulgar here but it's true to a great degree; the predominantly male reader wants to be the male characters (mainly but not always the heroic ones) and he wants to have sex with the female characters in this power fantasy. That is what it usually boils down to if you strip everything else away, sadly.

Sadly, I think you're on point, at least with the mindset of a not-insignificant portion of the fanbase.

The problem is can they replace the core audience fast enough not to go out of business more so the floppies than the IP as a whole? Keep in mind, women have other things they traditionally like also competing for their attention and more importantly dollars same goes for LGBTQ+ people. At the end of the day, capitalism is about making money if a product doesn't make money it will eventually vanish from the marketplace.

"Replace" is a rather loaded term, though, given how in real life, the paranoia of certain people over the idea that they (and those like them) are being deliberately replaced by "others" has been a major motivator for serious, even deadly violence. While comics fandom is nowhere near that volatile yet, some of those same elements fomenting discord and hatred are unfortunately present there, too.

[Celgress]

...."Replace" is a rather loaded term, though, given how in real life, the paranoia of certain people over the idea that they (and those like them) are being deliberately replaced by "others" has been a major motivator for serious, even deadly violence. While comics fandom is nowhere near that volatile yet, some of those same elements fomenting discord and hatred are unfortunately present there, too.

Sorry, this thought did not even occur to me when I typed those sentences. I'm accustomed to academia where we simply speak our mind as directly as possible about any given subject without coaching our language. I should have perhaps chosen a more diplomatic term when posting on a public forum.