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  1. #106
    Spectacular Member rf2044's Avatar
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    MSI launches exhibit exploring history of Marvel's superheroes


    Marvel just launched the “Universe of Super Heroes” exhibit in Chicago, depicting Marvel history over the last 81 years that includes rare original artwork, costumes and interactive activities.

    Dani gets a mention of this article, from the exhibit's opening:

    https://www.hpherald.com/news/local/...de34e21ef.html

    Screenshot 2021-01-20 113622.jpg



    WHICH LEADS ME TO THE QUESTION OF THE WEEK:

    IS DANIELLE MOONSTAR THE MOST PROMINENT NATIVE AMERICAN / INDIGENOUS CHARACTER IN COMIC BOOK HISTORY?

    Curious to hear thoughts / reactions from others.
    Last edited by rf2044; 03-10-2021 at 12:58 PM.

  2. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    IS DANIELLE MOONSTAR THE MOST PROMINENT NATIVE AMERICAN / INDIGENOUS CHARACTER IN COMIC BOOK HISTORY?
    Curious to hear thoughts / reactions from others.
    Mutant Native American - probably. But over all, I am not sure.
    Because you have to consider Warpath (James Proudstar). Sadly his brother, John (Thunderbird) didn't live long enough to leave a big impact. (Other than the impact he left on the side of a mountain... sigh)
    There's also Red Wolf (who appeared in Avengers, and throughout comics).
    There is also Shaman of Alpha Flight, who is Native American.
    Forge is also Native American.

    Those were ones that came to the top of my head.

    And of the above - I'd say Dani is up there at the top, for sure.
    But I also think other characters represented Native Americans better than Dani did, from time to time.

    Decided to check and the list of Native Americans in comics is larger than I could have imagined (but could always use more!)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...an_superheroes
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  3. #108
    Spectacular Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    Mutant Native American - probably. But over all, I am not sure.
    Because you have to consider Warpath (James Proudstar). Sadly his brother, John (Thunderbird) didn't live long enough to leave a big impact. (Other than the impact he left on the side of a mountain... sigh)
    There's also Red Wolf (who appeared in Avengers, and throughout comics).
    There is also Shaman of Alpha Flight, who is Native American.
    Forge is also Native American.

    Those were ones that came to the top of my head.

    And of the above - I'd say Dani is up there at the top, for sure.
    But I also think other characters represented Native Americans better than Dani did, from time to time.

    Decided to check and the list of Native Americans in comics is larger than I could have imagined (but could always use more!)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...an_superheroes

    Re: the question above, I meant it to encompass ALL comics. Not sure that there's anyone from DC who rates. Dawnstar? Apache Chief was a joke.

    Warpath and Shaman for Marvel -- but not sure either of them have the same impact or longevity Dani has.

  4. #109
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    Re: the question above, I meant it to encompass ALL comics. Not sure that there's anyone from DC who rates. Dawnstar? Apache Chief was a joke.

    Warpath and Shaman for Marvel -- but not sure either of them have the same impact or longevity Dani has.
    Not Shaman, but definitely Warpath. He's been around almost as long as Dani and has been used more consistently than her since the 90s. She's had broader reach though due to her Valkyrie ties and gets used outside of the X-line whereas he doesnt

  5. #110

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    It's her "Valkryie" era (for me - keep in mind, my own opinion about to be expressed) that tarnishes her "Native American" bit.

    I don't know - I can't explain it. I just felt like she truly represented Native Americans - then after the Valkyrie thing - she just became "another super hero."

    And it's not every appearance since then - from time to time, she's written and drawn in a way that reminds me of it.

    It's difficult because, as a writer you don't want to write a "stereotypical" Native American (or any race). So you want to venture away from using bow and arrows, moccasin boots, beaded headbands, etc., but at the same time - it also steers away from that, and just makes the character feel like everyone else.

    Difficult balance.

    This is why I mentioned Shaman and Warpath, who I think still have "the look" without being the stereotypical Native American. So they feel like slightly stronger representations?

    But none have done what Dani has done - from over coming her fears (Demon Bear), to leading a team (New Mutants), going undercover (MLF), to losing her powers and still fighting bravely.

    So she has all of that going for her.

    For other comics - other than Image, I am not wholly familiar with - for example, a lot of DC characters.
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  6. #111
    Fantastic Member justinslot's Avatar
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    Does anyone know if Dani is in the new Mighty Valkyries book? Interested in it if she is, less interested if not...

  7. #112
    Spectacular Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post

    And of the above - I'd say Dani is up there at the top, for sure.
    But I also think other characters represented Native Americans better than Dani did, from time to time.

    Hey Adam -- just responding to this to dialogue [not in an argumentative way]. Hope you take it in the spirit intended -- just a friendly discussion, since things have been slow in this thread lately.

    I'm not connecting with what you mean about her not representing Native Americans. In what way? Because as you point out in your other post, there's a fine line not just in comics, but in all fiction, between characterization and stereotyping. Characters like Red Wolf, Shaman, Black Crow, etc. are all kind of stereotypes of the way that Native Americans are generally depicted in comics. Their powers are tied to their connection to nature, they are mystical, and they are pretty one dimensional [and this is coming from someone who likes Red Wolf, and used to read Alpha Flight with Shaman].

    Somewhat unintentionally, IMO, Claremont avoided making Dani a stereotype of Native Americans. Her powers were abstract, and semi-unique. Sure, he toed the line in some ways with her being able to empathically communicate with animals, and with some things about her look [i.e., braids, leather clothes, her use of a bow, etc.] -- but by the end of the graphic novel, Dani "took back" those things by making the unauthorized changes to her uniform, by defiantly donning the turquoise belt, the fringed boots, etc. rather than conform to the rules imposed by Professor X. She did that because despite being out of her element, she was asserting that her culture was important, and that she wouldn't abandon her heritage.

    c34cc4959760a961e8528d935651836c.jpg

    Later on, her Native American fashion became even more prominently pronounced -- wearing feathers woven into her hair, later on constantly wearing the Apache-style headband -- but those weren't things that seemed to be used to make her SEEM more Native American, it was more like Dani asserting her unique style, representing her culture, and NOT abandoning her look by being "white washed."

    a22.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam-X View Post
    It's her "Valkryie" era (for me - keep in mind, my own opinion about to be expressed) that tarnishes her "Native American" bit.

    I don't know - I can't explain it. I just felt like she truly represented Native Americans - then after the Valkyrie thing - she just became "another super hero."


    And it's not every appearance since then - from time to time, she's written and drawn in a way that reminds me of it.

    It's difficult because, as a writer you don't want to write a "stereotypical" Native American (or any race). So you want to venture away from using bow and arrows, moccasin boots, beaded headbands, etc., but at the same time - it also steers away from that, and just makes the character feel like everyone else.

    Difficult balance.

    This is why I mentioned Shaman and Warpath, who I think still have "the look" without being the stereotypical Native American. So they feel like slightly stronger representations?

    But none have done what Dani has done - from over coming her fears (Demon Bear), to leading a team (New Mutants), going undercover (MLF), to losing her powers and still fighting bravely.

    So she has all of that going for her.

    For other comics - other than Image, I am not wholly familiar with - for example, a lot of DC characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by justinslot View Post
    Does anyone know if Dani is in the new Mighty Valkyries book? Interested in it if she is, less interested if not...

    Duly noted -- again, this is just a friendly debate. As a devout Dani fan, I think Marvel did her a disservice by depowering her during the Decimation. Because that made her Valkyrie abilities the only "powers" she had. And for awhile [many years of real time, in fact] that's all she was. But thankfully that's been remediated, and now her powers are back to normal, despite her still being a Valkyrie.

    I think some of the art [there's a cover where she doesn't look Native American at all] could be accused of "white washing," but by and large they get her look right. a9eef9b33f28acea578fdb991ba28449.jpg

    Darcie Little Badger, who is a Lipan Apache writer who authored her "Indigenous Voices" story, described that Dani's Valkyrie costumes are way better than her other costumes [in her opinion]. She also goes on to say that being a Valkyrie doesn't detract from Dani's indigenous-osity at all, because like all Native Americans, she can be many things in one [a mutant, a hero, a woman, a Valkyrie, AND a Native American] without any of those facets detracting from or diminishing the others:

    Who is Dani Moonstar? Well, she’s a Cheyenne woman. A mutant hero. A vehemently loyal friend, an independent thinker, a successful teacher, an effective leader, and—as mentioned previously—an on-again, off-again Valkyrie. Like all Native folks, she’s many things simultaneously. Dani’s character is not made to minimize or compromise her indigeneity in pursuit of individuality or complexity.

    Here's the article, just for reference: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...simultaneously

    I guess as a fan of the character, I believe that she's a great representation of Native American cultures not because she fits a stereotype, but because she's different, diverse, and weaves her Native American culture into every aspect of her look / character. And has for nearly 40 years -- from her first appearance in Marvel Graphic Novel #4, to the present day. I can't rightly say whether Claremont intended her to break the mold with respect to Indigenous stereotypes, but whether by design or by accident, that's what Dani's accomplished IMO.
    Last edited by rf2044; 03-25-2021 at 02:47 PM.

  8. #113
    Spectacular Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinslot View Post
    Does anyone know if Dani is in the new Mighty Valkyries book? Interested in it if she is, less interested if not...

    Hey -- just did a quick search, but couldn't find anything definitive. The one "Dani Moonstar" reference related to Mighty Valkyries talked about her inclusion in the King In Black series.

    https://comicyears.com/comics/new-mi...ttia-di-iulis/
    Last edited by rf2044; 03-25-2021 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #114
    Mighty Member norj's Avatar
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    The first issue has the Demon Bear running around eating souls, she had better show up.
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  10. #115
    Spectacular Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norj View Post
    The first issue has the Demon Bear running around eating souls, she had better show up.

    With that set up, I don't see any way Dani COULDN'T be a big part of the plotline. Besides... there's nobody better against bears!

    bad ass2.jpg

    Came across the video the other day, breaking down her character / history. Enjoy!


  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    Hey Adam -- just responding to this to dialogue [not in an argumentative way]. Hope you take it in the spirit intended -- just a friendly discussion, since things have been slow in this thread lately.

    I'm not connecting with what you mean about her not representing Native Americans. In what way? Because as you point out in your other post, there's a fine line not just in comics, but in all fiction, between characterization and stereotyping. Characters like Red Wolf, Shaman, Black Crow, etc. are all kind of stereotypes of the way that Native Americans are generally depicted in comics. Their powers are tied to their connection to nature, they are mystical, and they are pretty one dimensional [and this is coming from someone who likes Red Wolf, and used to read Alpha Flight with Shaman].

    Somewhat unintentionally, IMO, Claremont avoided making Dani a stereotype of Native Americans. Her powers were abstract, and semi-unique. Sure, he toed the line in some ways with her being able to empathically communicate with animals, and with some things about her look [i.e., braids, leather clothes, her use of a bow, etc.] -- but by the end of the graphic novel, Dani "took back" those things by making the unauthorized changes to her uniform, by defiantly donning the turquoise belt, the fringed boots, etc. rather than conform to the rules imposed by Professor X. She did that because despite being out of her element, she was asserting that her culture was important, and that she wouldn't abandon her heritage.

    c34cc4959760a961e8528d935651836c.jpg

    Later on, her Native American fashion became even more prominently pronounced -- wearing feathers woven into her hair, later on constantly wearing the Apache-style headband -- but those weren't things that seemed to be used to make her SEEM more Native American, it was more like Dani asserting her unique style, representing her culture, and NOT abandoning her look by being "white washed."

    a22.jpg







    Duly noted -- again, this is just a friendly debate. As a devout Dani fan, I think Marvel did her a disservice by depowering her during the Decimation. Because that made her Valkyrie abilities the only "powers" she had. And for awhile [many years of real time, in fact] that's all she was. But thankfully that's been remediated, and now her powers are back to normal, despite her still being a Valkyrie.

    I think some of the art [there's a cover where she doesn't look Native American at all] could be accused of "white washing," but by and large they get her look right. a9eef9b33f28acea578fdb991ba28449.jpg

    Darcie Little Badger, who is a Lipan Apache writer who authored her "Indigenous Voices" story, described that Dani's Valkyrie costumes are way better than her other costumes [in her opinion]. She also goes on to say that being a Valkyrie doesn't detract from Dani's indigenous-osity at all, because like all Native Americans, she can be many things in one [a mutant, a hero, a woman, a Valkyrie, AND a Native American] without any of those facets detracting from or diminishing the others:

    Who is Dani Moonstar? Well, she’s a Cheyenne woman. A mutant hero. A vehemently loyal friend, an independent thinker, a successful teacher, an effective leader, and—as mentioned previously—an on-again, off-again Valkyrie. Like all Native folks, she’s many things simultaneously. Dani’s character is not made to minimize or compromise her indigeneity in pursuit of individuality or complexity.

    Here's the article, just for reference: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...simultaneously

    I guess as a fan of the character, I believe that she's a great representation of Native American cultures not because she fits a stereotype, but because she's different, diverse, and weaves her Native American culture into every aspect of her look / character. And has for nearly 40 years -- from her first appearance in Marvel Graphic Novel #4, to the present day. I can't rightly say whether Claremont intended her to break the mold with respect to Indigenous stereotypes, but whether by design or by accident, that's what Dani's accomplished IMO.
    I can see why Darcie Little Badger would say that that Dani's Valkyrie costumes are way better than her other costumes [in her opinion].

    Because Dani's other costumes (MLF for instance) for the most part never really looked like anything someone like Dani would actually wear.

    Kitty,yes. Dani, no.
    Last edited by rcaguy; 03-27-2021 at 03:26 PM.

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    MSI launches exhibit exploring history of Marvel's superheroes


    Marvel just launched the “Universe of Super Heroes” exhibit in Chicago, depicting Marvel history over the last 81 years that includes rare original artwork, costumes and interactive activities.

    Dani gets a mention of this article, from the exhibit's opening:

    https://www.hpherald.com/news/local/...de34e21ef.html

    Screenshot 2021-01-20 113622.jpg



    WHICH LEADS ME TO THE QUESTION OF THE WEEK:

    IS DANIELLE MOONSTAR THE MOST PROMINENT NATIVE AMERICAN / INDIGENOUS CHARACTER IN COMIC BOOK HISTORY?

    Curious to hear thoughts / reactions from others.
    I'd say so but to add to the rather popular list of NA characters I'd also add Warpath and Talisman who (the latter) is Shamans daughter and she is also on Alpha Flight. One of my favorites of that team. I always liked Wyatt Wingfoot who was a support for the FF and used to date She-Hulk. Actually... I would say Dani and James are tied for most prominent.
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  13. #118
    Spectacular Member rf2044's Avatar
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    Sounds like issue #4 of King In Black: Return of the Valkyries comes out in two days, on March 31st:

    https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/...lkyries_2021_4

    clean.jpg

  14. #119
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    spoilers:
    Dani retains her Valkyrie powers at the end of Return of the Valkyries
    end of spoilers

  15. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    Hey Adam -- just responding to this to dialogue [not in an argumentative way]. Hope you take it in the spirit intended -- just a friendly discussion, since things have been slow in this thread lately.
    Pfft - I can see you're being very respectful in your reply. So there was no way I was gonna think it was "argumentative" - we're all good.

    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    I'm not connecting with what you mean about her not representing Native Americans. In what way? Because as you point out in your other post, there's a fine line not just in comics, but in all fiction, between characterization and stereotyping. Characters like Red Wolf, Shaman, Black Crow, etc. are all kind of stereotypes of the way that Native Americans are generally depicted in comics. Their powers are tied to their connection to nature, they are mystical, and they are pretty one dimensional [and this is coming from someone who likes Red Wolf, and used to read Alpha Flight with Shaman].
    I, personally, don't mind stereotypes too much. For example, I am from Spain. Every single time I saw El Aguila show up (primarily in Power Man & Iron Fist), I was jumping with joy. He's a character that's from Madrid (Spain) where a lot of my family is from (I'm from Spain, but not Madrid Spain). Despite the mask over the face that looks like something from Zorro, and that he had a blade (similar to what bull fighters use) - I loved it every time he showed up. Why? Did I think he was the best character ever? No. But he was from Spain, and despite some stereotype stuff about him - it did not insult me, or how I feel about my heritedge.

    As a side note - I love Red Wolf, Shaman, Dani, and so on. As a matter of fact, way back (remember when Wizard Magazine was around?) - I pulled a group of people together to write in a shared Marvel Universe, with the idea, "What if Onslaught had been defeated without Heroes Reborn happening?" and called it Alt Marvel. And we each took books and continued them from the time of Onslaught. I took on writing Uncanny X-Men. What was one of the first things I did? Introduced a new Native American mutant named Warcry. So I love me some Native Americans.

    As for not connecting what I meant - you quoted it later...

    Quote Originally Posted by rf2044 View Post
    Duly noted -- again, this is just a friendly debate. As a devout Dani fan, I think Marvel did her a disservice by depowering her during the Decimation. Because that made her Valkyrie abilities the only "powers" she had. And for awhile [many years of real time, in fact] that's all she was. But thankfully that's been remediated, and now her powers are back to normal, despite her still being a Valkyrie.
    Right there. Not only when they depowered her - but before that when they gave her Valkyrie powers.
    Because suddenly she became more about being a Valkyrie - even when she had her powers - than anything else. The idea that she was a Native American character got washed away (for me) during this time.
    Mind you, I still liked Dani (when she had her powers and was a Valkyrie) - but she felt like a new character to me. Not only had she become a Valkyrie - but even her powers changed (where she'd see death all the time).
    But as you mentioned, when they depowered her - and then that's all she had was being a Valkyrie - made what I was already sort of disliking what they did to her, just burn infinitely brighter.
    Where as you take James Proudstar (Warpath) - he's not had anything crazy like that. He's always represented himself as a Native American. He's not gotten a power that so drastically changed who he was that I felt like he lost a bit of what he was representing.

    Again - these are just my views and I don't expect anyone but myself to agree with them. So I never fear or worry or get offended if someone disagrees.
    Last edited by Adam-X; 03-31-2021 at 11:27 AM.
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