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  1. #541
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    If he's selling, then there's really no discussion and I'm honestly happy for his fans, but do you have any numbers backing up these claims?

    From what I see, Jace's debut issue was in place 32 of the icv best selling list- a very low ranking for a new Batman book. Robin and Batman the detective, for comparison, were amongst the top comichorn 10 most selling books when they debuted, static was in place 14, and superman son of kal el was in place 17, so if these numbers are true, jace had a very bad debut issue.

    Of course, we still don't have the comichorn numbers for August, so the book ranking may be higher, and the sales of issue #1 could even be higher (they should have been), but so far it seems that issue #1, despite being the big first issue, didn't make it to the top of the bestsellers of the week.
    Actually, Superman: Son of Kal-El #1 debuted at place 34 in units and 44 in dollars according to icv2. I Am Batman #0 debuted at place 32 in units and 26 in dollars according to icv2. Which, yeah, happened to be above Nightwing #83.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    Actually, Superman: Son of Kal-El #1 debuted at place 34 in units and 44 in dollars according to icv2. I Am Batman #0 debuted at place 32 in units and 26 in dollars according to icv2. Which, yeah, happened to be above Nightwing #83.
    You can't compare a debut issue to issue #83. That's ridiculous. first issues sell a lot and then plunge in sales, you can see if for every single comic.

    And if we are comparing debut issues, you can't compare Jace's numbers to either Robin or the Detective numbers, or even Nightwing's debut in 2016, if you're so eager to compare between the two.
    The comichorn numbers seem more reliable, so I cited them regarding Superman son of kal-el, but anyway his debut issue also sold out and got a 2nd printing. Jace's book didn't.
    And that's without mentioning that it's a Batman book - so there are differences expectations.

    Again, if Jace attracts readers- great, and if he sells well - great for his fans, but if he his series doesn't sell as expected of Batman, I hope they move him to an elseworld setting, because he doesn't really work in the main universe.

  3. #543
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    You can't compare a debut issue to issue #83. That's ridiculous. first issues sell a lot and then plunge in sales, you can see if for every single comic.

    And if we are comparing debut issues, you can't compare Jace's numbers to either Robin or the Detective numbers, or even Nightwing's debut in 2016, if you're so eager to compare between the two.
    The comichorn numbers seem more reliable, so I cited them regarding Superman son of kal-el, but anyway his debut issue also sold out and got a 2nd printing. Jace book didn't.
    And that's without mentioning that it's a Batman book - so there are differences expectations.

    Again, if Jace attracts readers- great, and if he sells well - great for his fans, but if he his series doesn't sell as expected of Batman, I hope they move him to an elseworld setting, because he doesn't really work in the main universe.
    He works fine in the main universe, I don't know what you're talking about. Especially since Bruce is leaving Gotham. He's the exact same as Yara Flor.

    Also, icv2 is the most accurate and:

    1. He's not in Batman, he's in I Am Batman. Big difference.

    2. Batman: The Detective and Robin are starring established characters.
    Last edited by Superboy-Prime; 09-22-2021 at 04:58 PM.

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    He works fine in the main universe, I don't know what you're talking about. Especially since Bruce is leaving Gotham. He's the exact same as Yara Flor.

    Also, icv2 is the most accurate.
    ICV ratings is based on a sample of 100 stores, how can you say it's more accurate? On what data or you basing your claims?

    Jace doesn't work in a shared world with Bruce and the Batfamily.
    In a world in which all the batfamily are dead, as well as Bruce, he could work. Or in a world when Bruce approves of him after seeing him operating for a while. But as long as he's claiming to be Batman without receiving Bruce's blessing, neither a normal Bruce nor the batfamily would accept it.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    ICV ratings is based on a sample of 100 stores, how can you say it's more accurate? On what data or you basing your claims?

    Jace doesn't work in a shared world with Bruce and the Batfamily.
    In a world in which all the batfamily are dead, as well as Bruce, he could work. Or in a world when Bruce approves of him after seeing him operating for a while. But as long as he's claiming to be Batman without receiving Bruce's blessing, neither a normal Bruce nor the batfamily would accept it.
    Geoffrey Thorne, the writer of Green Lantern, has stated icv2 is the most accurate.

    That's what makes Jace interesting. As long as he does a good job, the Bat-Family will eventually accept him, because Batman is a symbol that can be anybody. But he doesn't want nor require their permission, and he doesn't even respect the original Batman. I'd argue he only works in a "shared world," as his perceived notion of Batman as Lucius and Bruce's private soldier has to be challenged by someone. And Lucius can't do that, seeing as he's suffering from PTSD.

  6. #546
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    A better origin would have at least helped to win people over.
    I mean most people who was indifferent about the idea of Jace as Batman before, will either not really changed his mind, or given up on him because this the series was kind of meh.

    I don't think that this series has made many readers really excited for this character, and it may have even done the opposite to some that were excited.
    Not necessary because of what happened in the book, but mostly because it is simply not a great series.
    “Better” is subjective. I think this origin works fine, it’s clearly unique compared to the rest of the Batfamily.
    Quote Originally Posted by BatsUSA View Post
    I have not "refused to read" the Jace Fox stories, in fact I am one of the few who probably read all of them -- hoping it would improve.
    And it is not about someone "accepting a black Batman" - it about accepting THIS black Batman - major difference.

    Some are interpreting public "indifference" for "acceptance" -- and measuring public by the relatively small, insular comics world.
    "Indifference" and "Acceptance" are total opposites.
    I have heard those unhappy with the Jace Fox origin. There just aren't a lot interested in the Jace Fox character at all.
    I think the larger public is going to care about the Jace Fox origin - if they ever bother to hear about it.

    I don't know of a single costumed hero whose basis was killing a person in a hit-and-run, leaving the victim to die in the street.
    I can think of numerous heroes who are trying to make up for past sins via being heroes. It’s a pretty common trope. Including Bruce who has committed countless war crimes and other atrocities throughout his career.
    That might seem edgy or creative to very small minority in the comics world. But when you try to sell that to the larger public, it is going down like a lead balloon. It is honestly astounding sometimes to see how little comics community understand the broader public. And for DC, how little they understand an essential business intellectual property like Batman. Imagine DC's business model with no Batman sales.

    Today the only significant public interest in a Fox Batman character is Luke Fox as Batwing on television.
    There are a lot of people (relatively) interested in Ryan Wilder, Luke Fox, Duke Thomas.
    But even that is a very small percent. I can only imagine if you foisted Jace Fox's negative origin on these characters.
    Nobody cares about any of those characters. Wilder becoming Batwoman tanked the views for Batwoman. Duke is one of the least popular Batfamily members as is Luke.
    As I previously mentioned, 145,000+ Tweets on Batman Day, I found 13 on Jace.

    Luke Fox is a much more marketable and positive character as a Batman family character and/or as a future Batman.
    Luke is boring and hilariously they already tried what you’re suggesting with Luke. He took over the Batwing mantle from David and ran the title into the ground. David was, like Jace, a unique character who had his own spin on being a Bat. Luke in contrast was another Gotham vigilante who did the typical Batfamily things. He’s a fine B-Lister but he’s not main character material. He lacks the edge that Batman needs.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  7. #547
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I can think of numerous heroes who are trying to make up for past sins via being heroes. It’s a pretty common trope. Including Bruce who has committed countless war crimes and other atrocities throughout his career.
    War crimes!?

    Okay, maybe enhanced interrogation tactics...and maybe holding someone against their will in the Batcave...

  8. #548
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    War crimes!?

    Okay, maybe enhanced interrogation tactics...and maybe holding someone against their will in the Batcave...
    Lol that Brother EYE stunt would’ve gotten anyone else locked up. Also you’re forgetting the child soldiers all of which have died or believed to have died at this point
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    “Better” is subjective. I think this origin works fine, it’s clearly unique compared to the rest of the Batfamily.
    My point is not that the origin doesn't work, my point is that the "Second Son" was kind of boring and had really lack lustre art.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    Geoffrey Thorne, the writer of Green Lantern, has stated icv2 is the most accurate.

    That's what makes Jace interesting. As long as he does a good job, the Bat-Family will eventually accept him, because Batman is a symbol that can be anybody. But he doesn't want nor require their permission, and he doesn't even respect the original Batman. I'd argue he only works in a "shared world," as his perceived notion of Batman as Lucius and Bruce's private soldier has to be challenged by someone. And Lucius can't do that, seeing as he's suffering from PTSD.
    I can't find Thorne citation saying that. Could you please provide a link? If it's true, that's good to know.

    As for new characters debuting with lower sales - Wonder girl #1 debut issue was the 5th bestseller comic in May based on ICV2 (she's also a new character with a new series, so very comparable to Jace, and she's not even claiming the WW mantle).
    So again, based on those numbers, it's impossible to call Jace's debut issue a success.
    Of course, it's not final yet. The real test would be his #1 issue, but unless issue #1 would sell much better ( it should, since that was supposed to be his big launch) that's a very weak opening for his new series.

    As for the batfam leaving Jace "if he's doing a good job" - that's incredibly out of character for all of them. Especially for the paranoid and untrusting Bruce.
    The batfam would not see kindly someone pretending to be their mentor (unless Jace is making it 100% clear he's not the original Batman and is actually a "Brand new Batman", and in that case, that would probably be his mantle, not just "Batman").
    Again, it's one thing to be a masked vigilante in Gotham, and another one to claim the Batman mantle.

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    As long as he does a good job, the Bat-Family will eventually accept him, because Batman is a symbol that can be anybody.
    Because Batman is such a big symbol, I don't see the Bat-Family accepting him just taking over the mantle like that.

  12. #552
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Because Batman is such a big symbol, I don't see the Bat-Family accepting him just taking over the mantle like that.
    They will accept him because that's the narrative.

  13. #553
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Lol that Brother EYE stunt would’ve gotten anyone else locked up. Also you’re forgetting the child soldiers all of which have died or believed to have died at this point
    Always amazes how Bruce gets a pass for endangering minors even as they keep dying in battle. Change your strategy already Bruce.

  14. #554
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    As for the batfam leaving Jace "if he's doing a good job" - that's incredibly out of character for all of them. Especially for the paranoid and untrusting Bruce.
    The batfam would not see kindly someone pretending to be their mentor (unless Jace is making it 100% clear he's not the original Batman and is actually a "Brand new Batman", and in that case, that would probably be his mantle, not just "Batman").
    Again, it's one thing to be a masked vigilante in Gotham, and another one to claim the Batman mantle.
    Then I guess you're about to be very disappointed, because they'll inevitably end up accepting him.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    Then I guess you're about to be very disappointed, because they'll inevitably end up accepting him.
    I wouldn't mind if it would make sense. I just wonder how it's going to work without making either the Batfamily or Jace look bad, and if the readers would accept it (again, right now Jace isn't popular, and enough evidence support it)

    DC would probably try to adjust everything based on the readers reception. We already know they eventually course-correct when sales show lack of interest. Look at what they did with Damian or with Dick.
    And I think that if they'll have to make a choice between the two, it wouldn't be wise for them to chose Jace.

    Btw - could you add Thorne reference about the sales?

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