Zatanna Zatara: Mistress of Magic Appreciation 2021

[Frontier]

I don't really count Arthur as a "magical" character. More of a mythological one...I mean DC Comics didn't invent Atlantis. And his movie had some really cool fight choreography (the kind you don't usually see in fantasy movies at all). Mystical films to me involve incantations, artifacts, spells, wands, laser beams, reality warping and hand waving. I mean Aquaman did use the water to help him, so I guess that's considered magical.

There are different kind of fantasies .

[Albert1981]

There are different kind of fantasies .

Oh I totally agree with you. I think the Wonder Woman and Aquaman movies are definitely fantasies. And they were extremely successful. So you definitely have a lot of facts on your side. For me, my definition of a classic fantasy movie is Princess Bride. It remains one of my favorites!

[John Venus]

Ho, ton taht drah.

Pey, ti steg reisae eht reom uoy od ti.

Because I think DC wants to make this flick a "horror" movie.

She's not really a horror character though. Her stories can be dark but she's not a horror character.

Yeah, but...Zatanna .

It can work if the conceit is that she is the light in a dark world.

I'm fine with dark. Magic has consequeces when it's dark. It's perfect for characters with stupid powers like Zatanna. Tbh before JLD no one took her stories seriously.

Magic doesn't necessarily have to 'dark' or horror based in order for it to have consequences though. That's on the writing. The old Sabrina: The Animated Series showed consequences for misusing magic without being dark. It also bugs me that DC seems to think that 'dark' stories are the only valid ones worth telling and that stories that are lighter or more comedic are lacking in verisimilitude. That's not true at all. Darkness is just an indicator of atmosphere, not a determination of whether a story is good or not. Comedy can be just as enlightening and expose hidden truths just as as well as any dark and dreary story can.

Back in the 70's, fans literally voted her in to the JLA, there has always been interest around the character, its DC's fault that it took them 40 years to consider giving her an ongoing. I haven't seen people claim that they couldn't take her seriously before JLD, it's just that the latter was the only place for people to read her in. There is still a great deal of love towards Dini's ongoing.

JLD deserves some applause for having Zatanna defeat a cosmic entity twice but that's something she did even before the Nu52. I like the relationship between Zee and Diana as well as Detective Chimp but the primary dynamic is still her being Constantine's girlfriend who constantly rolls her eyes at his antics. Even though it's the 'magic book', JLD doesn't bother diving into Zatanna's own history or lore, there is no Zachary, there is no Vegas crew, Zee's relationships and history with characters like Barry Allen, Batman and Ray Palmer are mostly non existent, nobody's revisited Sindella or the Hidden City, nobody's touched Arella or bothered to update her rogues gallery. Instead most writers seem to be mostly drawing from Alan Moore's 'American Gothic' Neil Gaiman's Sandman for inspiration. I like Ram V and Tynion IV's work, JLD Vol 2 is a cut above JLD Vol 1 but Zee and the magical world deserves more, imo.

Paul Dini tried to make her light hearted but no one bought it because of Identity crisis. There was a great contrast between what Paul wanted her to be and what other writers wanted.

IC was used as plot point by almost every writer. Writers of Flash (wally), green arrow, superman, catwoman and batman used her to make their own stories.

I would have liked Paul Dini to at least make me feel sympathy for zatanna. Maybe show her reason for doing so or show how hard it has been for her but nah.

Paul Dini didn't make her light hearted, she has always been a light hearted character from her first appearance up through JLA to her feature in World's Finest. She can work in darker stories but there was a reason why Zatara's death in Swamp Thing was so shocking.

IC damaged Zatanna's character. Mind wiping just became a gimmick for writers to exploit for cheap thrills and none of them could make up their mind; was Zatanna gleefully and very willingly participating in the mind wipe? Was she a rookie with great power who was cajoled by the senior members to do it? Does she truly regret her actions or does she consider it a 'necessary evil'?

I think Dini was right in trying to explore new avenues of story telling. Him and Grant Morrison saved the character are IC tainted her.

Dini does show her regretting the mind wipes but he just didn't have her dwell on it.

Literally the first page of her 2010 series shows her tied up and about to be penetrated by a drill controlled by her stage hands dressed up as Joker and Dr Light. Dr. Light who raped Sue and Joker who recently killed her friend and almost killed her too.

I found that jarring too but given that she was performer and artist, I now see it as her dealing with her issues through her performances.

Paul Dini didn't even know that Batman was angry at Zatanna the first time he got to write her in Tec.

Then when Joker shoves her into the water tank and taunts her by saying that some think she can't escape without magic, what does Paul make her do? Blood magic, enough to heal her but not escape. So Batman can once again save the damsel. This would've been a good time to show her escape artist skill but nah. Let's give Batman a reason to lock lips with her.

Then he has her fall in love with Batman knowing full well that she's the reason why Batman and Catwoman seperated in the first place.

In short, I don't like Paul's version because he always made her magic feel small and inconsequential. Magic didn't have a cost so everything was solved within seconds. Hell, paul wouldn't even allow her to feel sad for her father anymore because now she could just summon his spirit with a word.

That's a shallow reading of that story arc and your take is missing several details.

For one thing, Zee wasn't clueless about why Bruce was mad at her. In fact, she states that she has apologized and is remorseful for her actions. The problem was Bruce still holding it against her and even forbid her from using magic. It's like how Lin from Legend of Korra was still holding in her anger at Suyin for the incident that scarred Lin 30 years ago.

As for the rescue scene: Joker shoots her in the throat then dumps her in a water tank after strapping Bruce to an electric chair. She only had time for one spell; either heal her wound or to escape the tank and risk facing the Joker again. She chose to heal her wound and trust Batman to save her. At that point, she had more faith in him that he did in her which made Bruce feel guilty and later they both rekindled their friendship. Yes, she got saved but there was a lot more to that story. She wasn't taken out to make Bruce look cool (in fact it did the opposite) nor because her powers were an inconvenience to the writer. It also established that Zatanna wasn't helpless just because she can't speak.

As for the relationship, she asks him about it, he turns her down, she moves on. He is not mentioned in the ongoing and there is no pining for each other. It was all very clean and uncomplicated.

As for Selina, the latter already got her revenge on Zee in her ongoing. Dini had them interact much more cordially in his 'Tec run. First Selina beats at a card game called Zatanna Shuffle and then later gives her an ointment to heal the scarring on her chest after Selina underwent surgery.

Zatanna talking to her father's ghost happened in an issue of Gotham City Sirens and that was not Dini. In her own ongoing, she did encounter his ghost when Brother Night tried to weaponize it against her. The ghost moved on. Dini did however have her casually talk to her fathers ghost in the Zatanna/Black Canary: OGN and yeah, I wasn't a fan of that moment either.

[Mai Zen]

Pey, ti steg reisae eht reom uoy od ti.



She's not really a horror character though. Her stories can be dark but she's not a horror character.



It can work if the conceit is that she is the light in a dark world.



Magic doesn't necessarily have to 'dark' or horror based in order for it to have consequences though. That's on the writing. The old Sabrina: The Animated Series showed consequences for misusing magic without being dark. It also bugs me that DC seems to think that 'dark' stories are the only valid ones worth telling and that stories that are lighter or more comedic are lacking in verisimilitude. That's not true at all. Darkness is just an indicator of atmosphere, not a determination of whether a story is good or not. Comedy can be just as enlightening and expose hidden truths just as as well as any dark and dreary story can.

Back in the 70's, fans literally voted her in to the JLA, there has always been interest around the character, its DC's fault that it took them 40 years to consider giving her an ongoing. I haven't seen people claim that they couldn't take her seriously before JLD, it's just that the latter was the only place for people to read her in. There is still a great deal of love towards Dini's ongoing.

JLD deserves some applause for having Zatanna defeat a cosmic entity twice but that's something she did even before the Nu52. I like the relationship between Zee and Diana as well as Detective Chimp but the primary dynamic is still her being Constantine's girlfriend who constantly rolls her eyes at his antics. Even though it's the 'magic book', JLD doesn't bother diving into Zatanna's own history or lore, there is no Zachary, there is no Vegas crew, Zee's relationships and history with characters like Barry Allen, Batman and Ray Palmer are mostly non existent, nobody's revisited Sindella or the Hidden City, nobody's touched Arella or bothered to update her rogues gallery. Instead most writers seem to be mostly drawing from Alan Moore's 'American Gothic' Neil Gaiman's Sandman for inspiration. I like Ram V and Tynion IV's work, JLD Vol 2 is a cut above JLD Vol 1 but Zee and the magical world deserves more, imo.



Paul Dini didn't make her light hearted, she has always been a light hearted character from her first appearance up through JLA to her feature in World's Finest. She can work in darker stories but there was a reason why Zatara's death in Swamp Thing was so shocking.

IC damaged Zatanna's character. Mind wiping just became a gimmick for writers to exploit for cheap thrills and none of them could make up their mind; was Zatanna gleefully and very willingly participating in the mind wipe? Was she a rookie with great power who was cajoled by the senior members to do it? Does she truly regret her actions or does she consider it a 'necessary evil'?

I think Dini was right in trying to explore new avenues of story telling. Him and Grant Morrison saved the character are IC tainted her.

Dini does show her regretting the mind wipes but he just didn't have her dwell on it.




I found that jarring too but given that she was performer and artist, I now see it as her dealing with her issues through her performances.



That's a shallow reading of that story arc and your take is missing several details.

For one thing, Zee wasn't clueless about why Bruce was mad at her. In fact, she states that she has apologized and is remorseful for her actions. The problem was Bruce still holding it against her and even forbid her from using magic. It's like how Lin from Legend of Korra was still holding in her anger at Suyin for the incident that scarred Lin 30 years ago.

As for the rescue scene: Joker shoots her in the throat then dumps her in a water tank after strapping Bruce to an electric chair. She only had time for one spell; either heal her wound or to escape the tank and risk facing the Joker again. She chose to heal her wound and trust Batman to save her. At that point, she had more faith in him that he did in her which made Bruce feel guilty and later they both rekindled their friendship. Yes, she got saved but there was a lot more to that story. She wasn't taken out to make Bruce look cool (in fact it did the opposite) nor because her powers were an inconvenience to the writer. It also established that Zatanna wasn't helpless just because she can't speak.

As for the relationship, she asks him about it, he turns her down, she moves on. He is not mentioned in the ongoing and there is no pining for each other. It was all very clean and uncomplicated.

I would like to add that She manage to shatter the infamous Joker sanity wank (or it was insanity? xd) Raven and Spectre have difficulf experiences against Joker once. So yeah She got a sweet revenge for it. Too bad New 52 happened before the 2010s run end. It's gonna have a stand off against The Spectre after after a chaotic battle initiated by Brother Night

I think Sindella briefly brought when Zee trapped at the illusion of the beginning of time (First JLD around issue 34 to 38). Uniquely her mother is a Brunette in there (not blonde like at the silver age story of them). But She manage to get free from that potent Illusion.

[Mai Zen]

I don't really count Arthur as a "magical" character. More of a mythological one...I mean DC Comics didn't invent Atlantis. And his movie had some really cool fight choreography (the kind you don't usually see in fantasy movies at all). Mystical films to me involve incantations, artifacts, spells, wands, laser beams, reality warping and hand waving. I mean Aquaman did use the water to help him, so I guess that's considered magical.

I love to see Zatanna exploring other ways to channeling her magics if there again story of her power doesn't work. Especially with arsenals of magical artifacts her family have at Shadowcrest

[Gaius]

That's a shallow reading of that story arc and your take is missing several details.

For one thing, Zee wasn't clueless about why Bruce was mad at her. In fact, she states that she has apologized and is remorseful for her actions. The problem was Bruce still holding it against her and even forbid her from using magic. It's like how Lin from Legend of Korra was still holding in her anger at Suyin for the incident that scarred Lin 30 years ago.

As for the rescue scene: Joker shoots her in the throat then dumps her in a water tank after strapping Bruce to an electric chair. She only had time for one spell; either heal her wound or to escape the tank and risk facing the Joker again. She chose to heal her wound and trust Batman to save her. At that point, she had more faith in him that he did in her which made Bruce feel guilty and later they both rekindled their friendship. Yes, she got saved but there was a lot more to that story. She wasn't taken out to make Bruce look cool (in fact it did the opposite) nor because her powers were an inconvenience to the writer. It also established that Zatanna wasn't helpless just because she can't speak.

As for the relationship, she asks him about it, he turns her down, she moves on. He is not mentioned in the ongoing and there is no pining for each other. It was all very clean and uncomplicated.

As for Selina, the latter already got her revenge on Zee in her ongoing. Dini had them interact much more cordially in his 'Tec run. First Selina beats at a card game called Zatanna Shuffle and then later gives her an ointment to heal the scarring on her chest after Selina underwent surgery.

Zatanna talking to her father's ghost happened in an issue of Gotham City Sirens and that was not Dini. In her own ongoing, she did encounter his ghost when Brother Night tried to weaponize it against her. The ghost moved on. Dini did however have her casually talk to her fathers ghost in the Zatanna/Black Canary: OGN and yeah, I wasn't a fan of that moment either.

Yeah, I think aside from a dream sequence, Bruce didn't show up at all in Zee's solo series. Which I'll give Dini props on considering what a Bat-fan he is and he introduced the relationship aspect between them (and in comparison to creative partner, Bruce Timm's habits in the DCAU).

[Albert1981]

I love to see Zatanna exploring other ways to channeling her magics if there again story of her power doesn't work. Especially with arsenals of magical artifacts her family have at Shadowcrest

I wouldn't mind seeing some diversity and flexibility in how Zatanna uses her magic. There's gotta be more than just saying **** backwards.

[Albert1981]

Pey, ti steg reisae eht reom uoy od ti.



She's not really a horror character though. Her stories can be dark but she's not a horror character.



It can work if the conceit is that she is the light in a dark world.



Magic doesn't necessarily have to 'dark' or horror based in order for it to have consequences though. That's on the writing. The old Sabrina: The Animated Series showed consequences for misusing magic without being dark. It also bugs me that DC seems to think that 'dark' stories are the only valid ones worth telling and that stories that are lighter or more comedic are lacking in verisimilitude. That's not true at all. Darkness is just an indicator of atmosphere, not a determination of whether a story is good or not. Comedy can be just as enlightening and expose hidden truths just as as well as any dark and dreary story can.

Back in the 70's, fans literally voted her in to the JLA, there has always been interest around the character, its DC's fault that it took them 40 years to consider giving her an ongoing. I haven't seen people claim that they couldn't take her seriously before JLD, it's just that the latter was the only place for people to read her in. There is still a great deal of love towards Dini's ongoing.

JLD deserves some applause for having Zatanna defeat a cosmic entity twice but that's something she did even before the Nu52. I like the relationship between Zee and Diana as well as Detective Chimp but the primary dynamic is still her being Constantine's girlfriend who constantly rolls her eyes at his antics. Even though it's the 'magic book', JLD doesn't bother diving into Zatanna's own history or lore, there is no Zachary, there is no Vegas crew, Zee's relationships and history with characters like Barry Allen, Batman and Ray Palmer are mostly non existent, nobody's revisited Sindella or the Hidden City, nobody's touched Arella or bothered to update her rogues gallery. Instead most writers seem to be mostly drawing from Alan Moore's 'American Gothic' Neil Gaiman's Sandman for inspiration. I like Ram V and Tynion IV's work, JLD Vol 2 is a cut above JLD Vol 1 but Zee and the magical world deserves more, imo.



Paul Dini didn't make her light hearted, she has always been a light hearted character from her first appearance up through JLA to her feature in World's Finest. She can work in darker stories but there was a reason why Zatara's death in Swamp Thing was so shocking.

IC damaged Zatanna's character. Mind wiping just became a gimmick for writers to exploit for cheap thrills and none of them could make up their mind; was Zatanna gleefully and very willingly participating in the mind wipe? Was she a rookie with great power who was cajoled by the senior members to do it? Does she truly regret her actions or does she consider it a 'necessary evil'?

I think Dini was right in trying to explore new avenues of story telling. Him and Grant Morrison saved the character are IC tainted her.

Dini does show her regretting the mind wipes but he just didn't have her dwell on it.




I found that jarring too but given that she was performer and artist, I now see it as her dealing with her issues through her performances.



That's a shallow reading of that story arc and your take is missing several details.

For one thing, Zee wasn't clueless about why Bruce was mad at her. In fact, she states that she has apologized and is remorseful for her actions. The problem was Bruce still holding it against her and even forbid her from using magic. It's like how Lin from Legend of Korra was still holding in her anger at Suyin for the incident that scarred Lin 30 years ago.

As for the rescue scene: Joker shoots her in the throat then dumps her in a water tank after strapping Bruce to an electric chair. She only had time for one spell; either heal her wound or to escape the tank and risk facing the Joker again. She chose to heal her wound and trust Batman to save her. At that point, she had more faith in him that he did in her which made Bruce feel guilty and later they both rekindled their friendship. Yes, she got saved but there was a lot more to that story. She wasn't taken out to make Bruce look cool (in fact it did the opposite) nor because her powers were an inconvenience to the writer. It also established that Zatanna wasn't helpless just because she can't speak.

As for the relationship, she asks him about it, he turns her down, she moves on. He is not mentioned in the ongoing and there is no pining for each other. It was all very clean and uncomplicated.

As for Selina, the latter already got her revenge on Zee in her ongoing. Dini had them interact much more cordially in his 'Tec run. First Selina beats at a card game called Zatanna Shuffle and then later gives her an ointment to heal the scarring on her chest after Selina underwent surgery.

Zatanna talking to her father's ghost happened in an issue of Gotham City Sirens and that was not Dini. In her own ongoing, she did encounter his ghost when Brother Night tried to weaponize it against her. The ghost moved on. Dini did however have her casually talk to her fathers ghost in the Zatanna/Black Canary: OGN and yeah, I wasn't a fan of that moment either.

Yeah, Zatanna's not a horror character. But I think she can fit very comfortably in a horror-based story. And be very funny in it too.

[John Venus]

I would like to add that She manage to shatter the infamous Joker sanity wank (or it was insanity? xd) Raven and Spectre have difficulf experiences against Joker once. So yeah She got a sweet revenge for it. Too bad New 52 happened before the 2010s run end. It's gonna have a stand off against The Spectre after after a chaotic battle initiated by Brother Night

I think Sindella briefly brought when Zee trapped at the illusion of the beginning of time (First JLD around issue 34 to 38). Uniquely her mother is a Brunette in there (not blonde like at the silver age story of them). But She manage to get free from that potent Illusion.

That's a good point about the Joker. She did a number on him even though he is one of Dini's pet characters as well.

Maybe it's just me but I prefer Sindella as a blonde woman.

I wouldn't mind seeing some diversity and flexibility in how Zatanna uses her magic. There's gotta be more than just saying **** backwards.

Well, most writers are content with taking her out by gagging but she has been shown to do magic by using sign language, writing in her own blood and even a speak and spell.

Yeah, Zatanna's not a horror character. But I think she can fit very comfortably in a horror-based story. And be very funny in it too.

Certainly:

[Mai Zen]

A dazzling and dynamic Zatanna art for the day. By SteelScarlet at Twitter
https://twitter.com/SteelScarlet/sta...059271681?s=19

[Zee_Fan]

Love it. Still holding out hope the Future State costume becomes the new look.

[Gaius]

I like the longer coat that gives it a cape feel but I don't think the hood is necessary as a permanent feature.

[Artemisfanboy]

Love it. Still holding out hope the Future State costume becomes the new look.

Me too. I love the overall classic look of the Future State outfit and think it would be a shame if it only appears in those two issues. I especially appreciate it bringing back the fishnets which have missed from the current outfit she's had since JLD began. They're such an iconic part of her look it doesn't feel right without them and the rest of her outfit harkens to her classic magician feel as well. It's a really good design in my book.

I like the longer coat that gives it a cape feel but I don't think the hood is necessary as a permanent feature.

The hood is very Raven esque, and I may prefer a top hat, but I like the costume overall so well I really find myself not minding it.

[Albert1981]

That's a good point about the Joker. She did a number on him even though he is one of Dini's pet characters as well.

Maybe it's just me but I prefer Sindella as a blonde woman.



Well, most writers are content with taking her out by gagging but she has been shown to do magic by using sign language, writing in her own blood and even a speak and spell.



Certainly:

Never knew Zatanna was a Queen fan. That's pretty funny. Hopefully her movie will show her using her powers in creative ways instead of just boring magical "western" battles.

[starduck]

I hope we see stage spells like this:



and some magic lasers too: