Carol Danvers: Captain Marvel Appreciation 2021

[Ichijinijisanji]

I get not liking it as a character move but I honestly don’t think it’s out of character. Carol’s shown to be a pretty reactionary person who tends to jump into things rather then think it through. She’s done something similar to the Strange hookup in the Brian Reed run after being in down mood set, and the Reed run also kind of put Strange on her map before Thompson did with her run. I really don’t see this as being out of character for Carol Danvers based off her history.

The whole love triangle shit was the worst part of the brian reed run honestly. Plus carol was in a way worse place with regards to that both in terms of the trauma and also lack of support system.

[MadFacedKid]

The whole love triangle shit was the worst part of the brian reed run honestly. Plus carol was in a way worse place with regards to that both in terms of the trauma and also lack of support system.

Yeah if you didn’t like it then I could understand why you wouldn’t like it now. But she had people around her she was the head of a task force, mentor to that Spidergirl at the time, support system or not someone she was romantically interested in was murdered and her way of coping with it was sleeping with Wonderman. Reason why I wouldn’t call this inconsistent with her character

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I’d argue Reed was first to tease the possibility of a Doctor Strange romance with them teaming up to fight against magic, he just never actually did anything with it but that tease.

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I’d argue Thompson’s been consistent with what he’s established though and doing her own thing at the same time.

Tbf with Carol as well as far as I’m aware Thompson’s last arc was her first time traveling into a possible future. She’s interacted with different universes and characters from alternate realities but she’s never to my recollection been to a possible future.

[Ichijinijisanji]

Yeah if you didn’t like it then I could understand why you wouldn’t like it now. But she had people around her she was the head of a task force, mentor to that Spidergirl at the time, support system or not someone she was romantically interested in was murdered and her way of coping with it was sleeping with Wonderman. Reason why I wouldn’t call this inconsistent with her character.

Spider-girl had recently got hurt and carol was avoiding her.
She basically even said in ms marvel 24 towards the end that she didn't have a place to call home, and she wasn't able to be with wonder-man or william because of her responsibilities making it hard for her to make time and william maybe not being interested in her anymore. She didn't have any friends she could talk to cuz of civil war.

Plus she had only been on a few dates with william and the whole time the sexual tension between wonder-man and carol was fleshed out, they were sleeping together in mighty aveners but had to break up, instead of a whole relationship she had with rhodey.

William had also died, plus she was getting buried in her failures like with the skrull tricking her and her crumbling under all her responsibilities i mean she straight up had a scene moping in the shower, she was in a way worse place and the relationship between william/carol/simon was not exclusive at the time. She'd also been dumped by william for reasons she didn't understand and also that he was a kree spy.

And this is worse. Her headspace should be completely different.

like... being killed is different than breaking up with them or being broken up with as well i mean c'mon

[Digifiend]

Arana. Anya wasn't called Spider-Girl back then. She only took that name in 2010, and this was in what, 2007?

[MadFacedKid]

I don’t think sleeping with someone because the person you were romantically interested in was murdered is better but that might just be a difference of opinion I guess. I think at the point when you have to justify one while bashing the other is questionable it’s practically a circumstance that shows Carol is pretty reactionary and it’s nothing new.

On top of the fact I think people aren’t paying attention to the actual timeline in the book. Thompson said weeks had passed by since her breakup with Rhodes, I could also bring up her failures as well to stopping Ove and Future Jess having to die all that being stuff Carol had to deal with. What’s different? The time frame, based on your Anya mention as well it sounds like Carol was pushing away people who were close to her like she tried to do with Spiderwoman who kept barging into her apartment. I’d honestly take the Thompson instance though over the Reed one.

I really don’t get how you’d argue a lover being killed makes more sense to rebound with someone than being torn up by a breakup, she was avoiding and dodging Simon for a good amount of time to but again different perspectives. Regardless she was going through a lot more than just her breakup with Rhodes. Her whole inspiration to learn magic is evident on that, because she doesn’t want to experience the same failure again.

[Ichijinijisanji]

I don’t think sleeping with someone because the person you were romantically interested in was murdered is better but that might just be a difference of opinion I guess. I think at the point when you have to justify one while bashing the other is questionable it’s practically a circumstance that shows Carol is pretty reactionary and it’s nothing new.

Okay first of all, reactionary doesn't mean to react impulsively to situations. It has an entirely different definition.

On top of the fact I think people aren’t paying attention to the actual timeline in the book. Thompson said weeks had passed by since her breakup with Rhodes, I could also bring up her failures as well to stopping Ove and Future Jess having to die all that being stuff Carol had to deal with. What’s different? The time frame, based on your Anya mention as well it sounds like Carol was pushing away people who were close to her like she tried to do with Spiderwoman who kept barging into her apartment. I’d honestly take the Thompson instance though over the Reed one.

Exactly... weeks had gone by. She's had time to process her emotions as opposed to just it being dumped on her immediately. She was having a borderline panic attack when she slept with simon then.

I really don’t get how you’d argue a lover being killed makes more sense to rebound with someone than being torn up by a breakup, she was avoiding and dodging Simon for a good amount of time to but again different perspectives. Regardless she was going through a lot more than just her breakup with Rhodes. Her whole inspiration to learn magic is evident on that, because she doesn’t want to experience the same failure again.

Well for one, it isn't a rebound. They hadn't actually been in a relationship. They had been on 3 dates, and she had a similar thing going with simon.
It's also about how much more traumatic annd how much less control you had over one of the situation when compared to the other making the situation worse.

She wasn't necessarily avoiding simon... she was just struggling to make time for anyone including herself because she was running the avengers, lightning storm, training initiative recruits and so on and drowning in all that responsibility until she snapped.
Anya also had a restraining order put on her, and carol would feel guilty leaning on her, not to mention that would be inappropriate.
Simon was who she went to and given that they sorta had an ongoing fwb situation recently so it made sense, they didn't have that boundary between them

Additionally i don't think she slept with simon then primarily because william had been killed, but a whole host of other things and her personal feelings of guilt. Her confessions pouring out to simon about things that weighed on her show that. KT's issue is purely from the perspective of a rebound.

I don't think you should also just keep adding random flaws and unhealthy coping mechanisms to carol endlessly. "Oh hey now she's drinking, oh wait now she's punching stuff and a workaholic, oh hey now its casual sex" and never have her grow from anything ever.

A hookup also adds absolutely nothing to the narrative, its especially awkward here.

[MadFacedKid]

My mistake then but it’s in character for Carol to be impulsive. She’s made impulsive decisions in non relationship instances as well and I’d sadly argue both Civil Wars showcase that. I definitely agree I’m not big on character flaws stacking up but she never really stopped making brash decisions she didn’t have a character arc to resolve not thinking through things before she acts so I also wouldn’t call it out of character.

Eh on the weeks going by to suggest she had time to process. Weeks went by and she was still in bed avoiding reality. How exactly was she processing her emotions when she distanced herself from the world around her?

I don’t think your definition of rebound is accurate. You could get a divorce from someone you were married to for years and cope with it by hooking up with someone at a bar and that would be your rebound. A rebound is simply someone your using either in a sexual or time consuming way to get over someone else. Carol could have broken up with Rhodey a year ago and if she still had her heart with him and used someone else to fill that void then that would qualify as a rebound.
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The whole I don’t “think” is opinion based and it isn’t supported by what was actually shown in the run. She didn’t hook up with Simon until Williams was killed and I’d argue that’s evident enough on why, she was romantically interested in Williams she didn’t feel the same about Simon. I think this article does a pretty good job of highlighting that.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arousin...oyfriends/amp/


At the end of the day it’s just one of those things where drama just sells. There’s a reason we get these tropes in long running shows.

[Ichijinijisanji]

My mistake then but it’s in character for Carol to be impulsive. She’s made impulsive decisions in non relationship instances as well and I’d sadly argue both Civil Wars showcase that. I definitely agree I’m not big on character flaws stacking up but she never really stopped making brash decisions she didn’t have a character arc to resolve not thinking through things before she acts so I also wouldn’t call it out of character.

Eh on the weeks going by to suggest she had time to process. Weeks went by and she was still in bed avoiding reality. How exactly was she processing her emotions when she distanced herself from the world around her?

I don’t think your definition of rebound is accurate. You could get a divorce from someone you were married to for years and cope with it by hooking up with someone at a bar and that would be your rebound. A rebound is simply someone your using either in a sexual or time consuming way to get over someone else. Carol could have broken up with Rhodey a year ago and if she still had her heart with him and used someone else to fill that void then that would qualify as a rebound.
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The whole I don’t “think” is opinion based and it isn’t supported by what was actually shown in the run. She didn’t hook up with Simon until Williams was killed and I’d argue that’s evident enough on why, she was romantically interested in Williams she didn’t feel the same about Simon. I think this article does a pretty good job of highlighting that.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arousin...oyfriends/amp/


At the end of the day it’s just one of those things where drama just sells. There’s a reason we get these tropes in long running shows.

Yeah if you're willing to argue that cwii is in character then there's no hope in arguing. You can argue carol can do anything from that perspective. Which is what I mean, you can argue anything she does ever is in character. No matter what the writers make her do, you can everything is in character. In CW1 she wasn't particularly impulsive but dealing with a lot of restrictions and seeing how to best manage them trying to look at what would be best in the long term (which i would argue is the opposite of impulsive)

And that article is trash, two of the comments (one by caleb) resolve all the mistakes it makes

Further im saying the william/simon thing wasn't a rebound because they didn't really start being in a relationship unless you feel that going on 2.5 dates is a relationship.

As for how she felt about simon, she was denying her feelings for him because wanted normalcy in her life but she also had a dream where they had sex indicating her subconscious feelings.

Eh on the weeks going by to suggest she had time to process. Weeks went by and she was still in bed avoiding reality. How exactly was she processing her emotions when she distanced herself from the world around her?

She was literally breaking down when she went with simon. That atleast suggests mentally she was in a way worse place and had way more unprocessed emotions that came crashing down on her. She literally making out with him through tears.

[Chris0013]

Yeah if you didn’t like it then I could understand why you wouldn’t like it now. But she had people around her she was the head of a task force, mentor to that Spidergirl at the time, support system or not someone she was romantically interested in was murdered and her way of coping with it was sleeping with Wonderman. Reason why I wouldn’t call this inconsistent with her character

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I could actually get behind a Carol and Simon ship....
1. As a pacifist he really has no place on a team because in the middle of a fight he would be useless. So adding him to CM gives him purpose.
2. His powers puts them on the same level.
3. As a romantic interest his pacifist philosophy could help her deal with whatever emotional turmoil she is dealing with.
4. It gets Simon away from his Wanda fixation.

[MadFacedKid]

Yeah if you're willing to argue that cwii is in character then there's no hope in arguing. You can argue carol can do anything from that perspective. Which is what I mean, you can argue anything she does ever is in character. No matter what the writers make her do, you can everything is in character. In CW1 she wasn't particularly impulsive but dealing with a lot of restrictions and seeing how to best manage them trying to look at what would be best in the long term (which i would argue is the opposite of impulsive)

And that article is trash, two of the comments (one by caleb) resolve all the mistakes it makes

Further im saying the william/simon thing wasn't a rebound because they didn't really start being in a relationship unless you feel that going on 2.5 dates is a relationship.

As for how she felt about simon, she was denying her feelings for him because wanted normalcy in her life but she also had a dream where they had sex indicating her subconscious feelings.



She was literally breaking down when she went with simon. That atleast suggests mentally she was in a way worse place and had way more unprocessed emotions that came crashing down on her. She literally making out with him through tears.

You’re liking of something doesn’t equate to whether it stands on something a character would be willing to do. The minute something is put out on the shelves I feel like it’s put into question whether it’s in character or not. The minute you can call back to instances of the character acting in a similar manner it builds into the consistency of a character doing things. Busiek showed Carol as impulsive with the whole I’m still going to do superheroics while I’m under the influence. However you try to dance around it she had feelings for Williams that she didn’t really for Simon she stated what she liked about Williams and why she wanted to be with him. Simon was someone she kissed to snap out of Modok’s control and then someone she slept with when she was grieving over Williams death. Something she was calling a mistake while doing it and yes I’d put into question her impulsiveness when doing things like that. You’re excuse is she was grieving in bed for weeks so she had time to process it... that’s not how grieving works. Processing and getting over something isn’t on your time it’s on the person whose grievings time period. The story Thompson wrote suggested she was still in a hurt place weeks later, Rhodes is someone still weighing on her mind similar to Williams making both Simon and Strange rebounds in a way.

Caleb still covers my point on Simon having been a rebound. If you sleep with someone just because someone you prefer is not with you anymore and you still are missing that person. That makes you a rebound.


You’re still ignoring the fact that she was ducking Simon. She basically gave him time off her team so she wouldn’t have to see him anymore while trying to pursue Williams. Her heart was obviously in favor of Williams and she didn’t sleep with Simon until Williams was murdered.


Where was she crying at while sleeping with Simon?

[MadFacedKid]

I’m honestly in favor of Carol developing her own love interest in her book. I don’t want her to really date any established heroes, or atleast for it to be long term. I like you’re points on the matter though outside 4 I don’t think Carol should be used as a deterrence to keep any character a way from a fixation they have for another.

[Chris0013]

I’m honestly in favor of Carol developing her own love interest in her book. I don’t want her to really date any established heroes, or at least for it to be long term. I like you’re points on the matter though outside 4 I don’t think Carol should be used as a deterrence to keep any character a way from a fixation they have for another.

I meant #4 a little humorously...

And even though Simon is an established hero...his pacifism really limits his use unless you are going to have him wax philosophical to the bad guys in a fight to try to dissuade them from being bad guys....so it kind of opens him up to be somewhere in a supporting character role. So have Dr Strange be the 'rebound' and bring Simon back and have them work up to a relationship.

And

[Rang10]

I could actually get behind a Carol and Simon ship....
1. As a pacifist he really has no place on a team because in the middle of a fight he would be useless. So adding him to CM gives him purpose.
2. His powers puts them on the same level.
3. As a romantic interest his pacifist philosophy could help her deal with whatever emotional turmoil she is dealing with.
4. It gets Simon away from his Wanda fixation.

I don't care about powers puting characters on the same level, never agreed to use powers as a way to match characters.

I really think Carol is better off without Simon

[Phoenixx9]

I don't care about powers puting characters on the same level, never agreed to use powers as a way to match characters.

I really think Carol is better off without Simon

Exactly my thoughts. I liked Carol as a friend of Simon but not romantic interest.

[Ichijinijisanji]

You’re liking of something doesn’t equate to whether it stands on something a character would be willing to do. The minute something is put out on the shelves I feel like it’s put into question whether it’s in character or not. The minute you can call back to instances of the character acting in a similar manner it builds into the consistency of a character doing things.

Yeah sometimes some writers who don't understand the character fall into easy stereotypes instead of the more complex, nuanced version of them. That doesn't mean you follow their lead, it means they need to do better The very foundation for this breakup is poorly written and contrived. This is after infinity countdown where she did have an arc about not letting herself be consumed by visions of the future.

Busiek showed Carol as impulsive with the whole I’m still going to do superheroics while I’m under the influence.

This is literally showing the effect and symptoms of active addiction which is a disease in how it alters your brain significantly combined with years of trauma (aka dual diagnosis). Every single character who has gone through addiction likes arcs has shown these symptoms because they're real (cap, batman, tony, recently jess and so on). Don't make the clear and well documented symptoms of a disease that carol fought to get better with how she'll act in stressful situations.

However you try to dance around it she had feelings for Williams that she didn’t really for Simon she stated what she liked about Williams and why she wanted to be with him.

She had feelings for simon too that she was denying. They meant different things to her but at the point of life she was in (where she wanted normalcy) William looked more appealing immediately. With simon it was more about passion and excitment.

Simon was someone she kissed to snap out of Modok’s control and then someone she slept with when she was grieving over Williams death.

Bro they had a whole thing going by the time avengers rolled out.... it was just on the dl and then they drifted apart because simon didn't want their relationship to interfere
even brian reed hinted at it with her being worried about simon knowing about william at her home which is dating "etiquette" when ur in the dating around phase to avoid awkwardness

Caleb still covers my point on Simon having been a rebound. If you sleep with someone just because someone you prefer is not with you anymore and you still are missing that person. That makes you a rebound.

She didn't sleep with simon because there was a break up. That's maybe 5% of her hurt. Will was murdered, and the skrull who killed him dragged carol across the city to find him only to trick them and reveal a new power that blew up the helicarrier and fell on people that she had to help but felt the failure and guilt of, and the hard decisions she had to make during civil war.



Her demeanor is way more desperate. She basically says "please simon, please" that's how fucked up she is. Her hook up with strange came after her friends got her out of her house, got her some bad guys to fight, so she was in a way better place and that's evident by how relatively at ease she is in talking to and even able to flirt with strange contrasted.

Please understand the degree I'm trying to convey. Carol felt like she was drowning then. And this is evident by the art drawn with eyes glistening, welling up, pained expressions on the verge of crying.

[/QUOTE]
You’re still ignoring the fact that she was ducking Simon. She basically gave him time off her team so she wouldn’t have to see him anymore while trying to pursue Williams.[/QUOTE]

She didn't duck him to pursue william, she had virtually no time for private stuff. Her boxes are shown unpacked, she wasn't just messing around but swamped with work and dealing with personal stuff on work time would be harder. Even with william all she could do is make phone calls, but when she'd basically end up in one fight or another which would take her away from it.

Issue 25 is basically her feeling like she's been neglected her personal life too much and says "yeah today im gonna deal with this shit!" rather than deliberately ducking everyone.

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