"Beware Their Power" - Green Lantern Mythos Appreciation 2021

[Robanker]

sometimes you just gotta let bad takes me bad takes. like you said, Hal is the most celebrated and most promoted GL. they're whole complaint that they're getting defensive about boils down to "Hal won't get enough attention" even tho it's an ensemble franchise, you can disregard it because it's not a serious talking point nor does it keep in the spirit of this thread. don't feed a non-issue, just let the bad take be bad.

Yeah, I edited down that post (alas, not fast enough it seems) because in the end it's just not worth it and I thought it was too knee-jerky a reaction.

I love Hal Jordan, but I also love the other Lanterns and I want to see them shine. I wish the market could sustain more GL books but right now it cannot so that means Hal takes a backseat while the others get to do stuff and that's okay. He'll be back. I have no doubts Morrison's run isn't Hal's last time in the saddle. If everything DC did to Wally West couldn't bury that kid because of the strength of the Waid and Johns run, Hal's not going anywhere considering the Johns run managed to catapult it back into the A-List where it belongs.

But it's not - or rather historically has not been - an ensemble franchise. For most of history, there was one main GL of Earth. For a lot of it only one GL of Earth. One main character in the DCU with that title. For it to be an ensemble franchise means someone (probably Hal, as he's mostly been the main one) gets demoted. Goes from King to a member of the ruling council. Goes from a whole book to part of one, etc. You can't pretend that's not what happens. If they had enough of fanbase for each to have their own book, and each to also star in the biggest team book, it wouldn't be nearly as bad (though, of course, his role within the the hero world becomes less distinct/individual to fans, and that can be problematic, as it makes them more expendable). But they don't have can fanbase. The pie doesn't get that much bigger, so it being cut into slices dose result in smaller pieces for the fans of the one who was originally the whole pie.

The pie was cut a long time ago and has since been morphed into one where the IP is an ensemble. Again, I bring up The Flash. It used to just be Barry, with Jay over there. Now people love Barry, Wally, Jay and the "Flash Family." It's absolutely got more than one protagonist. GL has been the same ever since Johns brought back Hal, kept Kyle around and John got to star on the animated series. You instantly had three protagonists and one IP to fit them in. This is to say nothing of Alan over in the JSA or Jessica's meteoric rise.

The GL IP has grown. Unlike some IP where it's largely been the same person driving it for 80 years (the Trinity for example) or one where there was only one replacement that has been walked back (Green Arrow), both GL and Flash have shifted around a lot and gotten to a point where they have a lot of different protagonists vying for the same spot.

Yes, someone is going to get shafted on page time when you only have 1-2 books going. It's a bad look when the Lantern who has been in the driver's seat for 15 years is suddenly mistreated for being treated like everyone else has been. Again, I love Hal Jordan. He's my third favorite Lantern after Alan and Guy. I loved his relationship to Ollie and Barry. The Johns run was very strong (until I jumped off at Brightest Day and it's not terrible after, just not as good) I love him in classic GL/JLA stuff. I adore the animated series. I think he's a great, fun character and I want to see him more in the future. I just think it's okay if John and other Lanterns get the spotlight for the next couple years.

[Tzigone]

The pie was cut a long time ago and has since been morphed into one where the IP is an ensemble. Again, I bring up The Flash. It used to just be Barry, with Jay over there. Now people love Barry, Wally, Jay and the "Flash Family." It's absolutely got more than one protagonist. GL has been the same ever since Johns brought back Hal, kept Kyle around and John got to star on the animated series. You instantly had three protagonists and one IP to fit them in. This is to say nothing of Alan over in the JSA or Jessica's meteoric rise.

I don't agree. There's one main Flash at time, generally speaking, and everyone else takes a backseat. It's not ensemble. It's the star and the second-tier. The star is the one that gets movies and more prominent roles in big events. And Wally fans get quite bitter about Wally being demoted/removed from that (but think Barry fans ridiculous if they were upset about it having happen to them and happy when he got be the living, great main hero again) - because it is, in fact, a demotion. And proof positive there that being demoted can lead to be erased/rewritten. Sure, Wally came back, but it's not like he's been shining since then.

Yes, someone is going to get shafted on page time when you only have 1-2 books going. It's a bad look when the Lantern who has been in the driver's seat for 15 years is suddenly mistreated for being treated like everyone else has been. Again, I love Hal Jordan. He's my third favorite Lantern after Alan and Guy. I loved his relationship to Ollie and Barry. The Johns run was very strong (until I jumped off at Brightest Day and it's not terrible after, just not as good) I love him in classic GL/JLA stuff. I adore the animated series. I think he's a great, fun character and I want to see him more in the future. I just think it's okay if John and other Lanterns get the spotlight for the next couple years.

Sure, you think it's okay. You like the others, so it goes from one character you like to another. But that does nothing for fans of Hal who aren't fans of others (and I'm not even a particular Hal fan). No, it wasn't okay other heroes got treated that way. Doesn't suddenly make it okay for Hal to get treated that way. People who love Hal, though, are quite reasonably more concerned with making sure he's treated well (I admit the double-standard can be annoying - like people okay with other heroes being character-assassinated, but outraged when it happened to Wally, whereas they all really irritate me, but I don't have enough passion to be outraged). And I also think the "he'll be back in a few years" is problematic on two fronts - firstly, there are lots of fans of others who would fight tooth and nail to keep their hero in the star seat (quite reasonably). Secondly, even if it did happen, they spend years without stories about their character or getting to see him shine. Like I said, if there was room for everyone to do so, it'd be different, but there isn't, so fans who have one particular favorite are taking rational action when the advocate for that one.

I notice that whenever anyone argues for team or ensemble or fans sharing, they always seem to argue for demoting Hal. So, of course, primarily-Hal fans aren't going to be happy when fans of the others decide the solution all/most of the others get more attention and Hal gets less. I get that that solution is proposed because Hal (usually) has the biggest position already, but in the end it results in telling fans they should be happy while their beloved character's role permanently shrinks (because even if he moves back to the forefront in a few years, it only lasts a few years before it's someone else's turn in the limelight) so others can shine more.

Not to mention, of course, that ensemble is a particularly tenuous place for GLs, since there's a not-insignificant history of the writers insulting/diminishing the other earth GLs to prop-up the one they are currently writing. At least, I've seen it it when two of the GLs were written. And I don't read all that much GL.

[SJNeal]

But it's not - or rather historically has not been - an ensemble franchise. For most of history, there was one main GL of Earth. For a lot of it only one GL of Earth. One main character in the DCU with that title. For it to be an ensemble franchise means someone (probably Hal, as he's mostly been the main one) gets demoted. Goes from King to a member of the ruling council. Goes from a whole book to part of one, etc. You can't pretend that's not what happens. If they had enough of fanbase for each to have their own book, and each to also star in the biggest team book, it wouldn't be nearly as bad (though, of course, his role within the the hero world becomes less distinct/individual to fans, and that can be problematic, as it makes them more expendable). But they don't have can fanbase. The pie doesn't get that much bigger, so it being cut into slices dose result in smaller pieces for the fans of the one who was originally the whole pie. Hal's may still often end up with the biggest piece, but it's smaller than it used to be. Maybe instead of pieces of pie I should have used assorted donuts and new flavors resulting in fewer of the kind you liked in the box...

While you won't catch me passing up any donut, Hal is definitely the bluberry cake in my dozen...

[Johnny]

I don't agree. There's one main Flash at time, generally speaking, and everyone else takes a backseat. It's not ensemble. It's the star and the second-tier. The star is the one that gets movies and more prominent roles in big events. And Wally fans get quite bitter about Wally being demoted/removed from that (but think Barry fans ridiculous if they were upset about it having happen to them and happy when he got be the living, great main hero again) - because it is, in fact, a demotion. And proof positive there that being demoted can lead to be erased/rewritten. Sure, Wally came back, but it's not like he's been shining since then.

Sure, you think it's okay. You like the others, so it goes from one character you like to another. But that does nothing for fans of Hal who aren't fans of others (and I'm not even a particular Hal fan). No, it wasn't okay other heroes got treated that way. Doesn't suddenly make it okay for Hal to get treated that way. People who love Hal, though, are quite reasonably more concerned with making sure he's treated well (I admit the double-standard can be annoying - like people okay with other heroes being character-assassinated, but outraged when it happened to Wally, whereas they all really irritate me, but I don't have enough passion to be outraged). And I also think the "he'll be back in a few years" is problematic on two fronts - firstly, there are lots of fans of others who would fight tooth and nail to keep their hero in the star seat (quite reasonably). Secondly, even if it did happen, they spend years without stories about their character or getting to see him shine. Like I said, if there was room for everyone to do so, it'd be different, but there isn't, so fans who have one particular favorite are taking rational action when the advocate for that one.

I notice that whenever anyone argues for team or ensemble or fans sharing, they always seem to argue for demoting Hal. So, of course, primarily-Hal fans aren't going to be happy when fans of the others decide the solution all/most of the others get more attention and Hal gets less. I get that that solution is proposed because Hal (usually) has the biggest position already, but in the end it results in telling fans they should be happy while their beloved character's role permanently shrinks (because even if he moves back to the forefront in a few years, it only lasts a few years before it's someone else's turn in the limelight) so others can shine more.

Not to mention, of course, that ensemble is a particularly tenuous place for GLs, since there's a not-insignificant history of the writers insulting/diminishing the other earth GLs to prop-up the one they are currently writing. At least, I've seen it it when two of the GLs were written. And I don't read all that much GL.

Well said. Even though GL is supposed to be an "ensemble franchise", that's essentially always been a lie since it's about "the star and the side characters". DC was so glad about Green Lantern being an ensemble franchise that at one point they simultaneously decided to either character assassinate, depower or shove everyone to the side to have only one guy left. Even when they do have everyone around, there's one guy in the driver's seat, one in the passenger's seat, a bunch of folks in the backseat and someone all the way back in the trunk. The "star" is the one who gets the events, the posters, the merchandise, the most animated, video game or live-action appearances, while the others are fighting over whatever scraps are left. Even if they do happen to be featured in whatever Green Lantern/Justice League related media product, they won't be the main representative because they're not the ones the marketing machine is backing up. The notion about this being treated like an ensemble franchise just because it has many Earth Lanterns scattered around, when people can always see which Lantern happens to be more favored than others, has always fascinated me.

Anyway this isn't the right thread to keep going on about this, I've just never been a fan of the "You're an entitled fanboy who can't be taken seriously" take that's usually thrown against Hal fans whenever they express some kind of displeasure about his treatment.

[Samm]

I can see why Hal Jordan fans are concerned and it’s the same reason John Stewart fans have been so angry with Dc for years. Green Lantern, despite having multiple characters going by that name, isn’t much of an ensemble franchise, historically at least. There’s always been one main Lantern who got all the outside media, team up stories, video game appearances and attention, all others played support. Historically Hal Jordan has been the face of the franchise, even with Kyle getting the franchise to himself for the 90’s. At one point Hal fans were trying to make him a part of the Trinity instead of Wonder Woman (yes I remember old school DC comics and CBR forums), but back then the franchise was at its peak in popularity (animated show, animated movies, live action movie, multiple comics...etc). Fast forward to 2021, Hal is no where near Trinity status anymore (Geoff is gone, no movie appearances, gets traded out in animated movies now, 1-2 comics...etc) and there is now 10 Earth based Green Lanterns with a huge company wide push for diversity! Guess which franchise is the most diverse, outside of the Titans... yup it’s Green Lantern!

But let’s be real here, as cool as Tai, Keli, Jo, and Simon are they’re too new to lead a franchise and haven’t really taken off in the same way Jessica did. Alan and Guy are two White guys (remember the push for diversity) and aren’t as popular as Hal. Kyle lacks the outside media exposure of John and thus doesn’t have the fan support. Jessica, despite soaring in popularity, is taking on the female counterpart role in the franchise (ala Batgirl, Supergirl...etc) and not the lead role. That just leaves Hal and John, the former is the one that has historically always been the face of the franchise, while the latter has a huge fan base due to outside media exposure and is DC’s most popular Black hero (sorry Black Lightning and Cyborg). In 2021, John is getting a huge push, he’s the star of the current comic, he’s appearing in outside media more (got the death in Apokolips War, was the GL in Harley Quinn and TT:Go, has the JL membership, appeared in Red Son and will likely be the GL of the new animated movie universe going by box art...etc) while Hal just has a solo comic that’s ending and an appearance in Red Son. Suddenly Hal’s no longer being treated as the face of the franchise, John is! Hal is being treated more like John was in the 2000’s, support character who wasn’t guaranteed to show up every issue. Hal fans are now feeling what John fans felt in the past, and that feeling always sucks! I should know! It’s never a good feeling when your favorite character’s prominence dwindles! As a John fan I am extremely happy about his new found push, but I will say I am sympathetic to Hal fans and their current predicament. Though I will end by saying I’m going to fight tooth and nail for John’s push to continue!

[Twice-named]

While you won't catch me passing up any donut, Hal is definitely the bluberry cake in my dozen...

What’s wrong with blueberry cake?

[SJNeal]

What’s wrong with blueberry cake?

Not a thing! They're my favorite, hence the Hal comparison...

[Gaius]

[Samm]

The 10 earth Lanterns! They should form their own Justice League

[Frontier]

Two more and we have a pantheon .

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Green Lantern is a franchise that has done both a main character and an ensemble.

Up until the 80s, it was about one main guy, Alan or Hal. But, once John took over, then Guy got added and Hal came back, it was an ensemble franchise and that proved pretty successful for several years until DC editorial decided to go back to one main guy again with Kyle. When Hal returned, they tried to split the difference between making Hal the main guy, but also giving almost everyone else else an ongoing series. Unfortunately, that wasn't sustainable when the franchise's popularity dimmed with the failure of the movie and the further addition of more and more human GLs.

Currently, DC's still trying to manage the main/ensemble hybrid, but with Hal once again handing the baton to John as the main GL with the other GLs getting lots of attention.

Morrison/Sharp look to be delivering a banger of a finale for Hal Jordan, so him getting put on the shelf for a little while is only going to make his inevitable return that much sweeter.

Unfortunately, there are simply too many GLs for everyone to get equal attention, but I think the spotlight is getting pretty well distributed.

I can see fans of Kyle being a little miffed. Nobody's figured out what to do with him for years. He's burned through the everyman, and messianic martyr stuff. I don't know what role he has to play these days, but I am sure some 90s kid weaned on Morrison's JLA will come up with something.

[Will Evans]

Two more and we have a pantheon .

Since Justice League has aliens like Superman and Martian Manhunter, just get Arisia and Kilowog.

[Frontier]

Since Justice League has aliens like Superman and Martian Manhunter, just get Arisia and Kilowog.

I guess if we are talking about alien GL's who've been the closest to being main characters, it would probably be them and Salaak.

[j9ac9k]

All their first appearances - nice! Can you imagine the event story that could actually feature them all equally as a team?? Since they're all earthers, it might be a thing where the GLC is willing to let the earth be destroyed "for the greater good" kinda thing but the Earth GLs aren't havin' it. (or something...)

[Anthony Shaw]

The "fanbase sabotage" thing is tiresome as well. Fans aren't to blame that the "custodians" of those characters not only seem uninterested in finding a solution to satisfy different portions of the fanbase, but also appear to be so creatively bankrupt that they see the only way to do something fresh with GL is to keep bringing in more characters the franchise isn't able to sustain on a long-term basis. The more this happens the more "What about my favorite?" arguments we'll have. That's not on the fans who can't logically pretend to be equally invested in every GL representative the corporate machine decides to get behind, it's on the folks who make the decisions.

I totally agree, Johnny.