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  1. #616
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    Apologies 10char
    It's okay - we all get sucked into these kind of things at times. We all check each other.

  2. #617
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    So due to some comments in other threads I decided I wanted to get a couple of people's opinions and this seemed like the best place for it. I thought about asking this in the John Stewart or Hal Jordan thread, but seeing as bringing up other GL usually dissolve into fighting, and the mention of those two threads is probably ringing the alarm in people's heads right now I thought it better to ask it here since most GL fans talk here probably.

    With that out of the way my question is how do you guys feel about the relationship between John and Hal? It's no surprise the Hal being one the most recognized figure in the GL fandom would have iconic moments between both the human GLs and the alien GLs. But are Hal and John as close as they should be? Hal was told to bring in and train John when he first got his ring. He healed John when he was crippled and, I'm not fully sure here, got John a job at Ferris Air as an architect. He briefly also lived with John. John was tied to Hal a lot more back then than he is now. Do you believe they're as close as need be, or were there missed opportunities for the two to be closer?

    I bring this up because some said John, along with a handful of other things I don't want to mention in fear of causing no
    arguements, that John had no real relationship with any of the GLs besides a few conversations. I'm really hoping this doesn't close the thread with arguments as I'm curious what Hal fans think about John and the relationship between the two. Please forgive the long winded question.

  3. #618
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    From my experience most of "Hal is boring" people are also John's fans and I think this is one of the reasons why we don't see much of them together.

  4. #619
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Seems to kind of wax and wane depending on the writer, at least from my (admittedly limited) perspective. Though more wane in recent years given Hal's usually off doing his own thing and John is on either JL or a GLC book.

    Seems pre-Emerald Twilight they had more of a relationship between them.
    Last edited by Gaius; 07-29-2021 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #620
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    The only human GL John is close to is Guy, who the DCAU creator admitted was an influence on their version of Wally. He has a respectful working relationship with the others, but they're not going to pop beers and talk about personal problems. Just maybe trade experiences. Kyle might be debatable since I haven't read much of the Kyle-centric 90s stuff. Alan has a proud mentor view of John, but he pretty much has that view of all GLs. John and Hal had a pretty conflicting relationship from the outset (John's original origin), and when John was reintroduced in the 1980s, Hal was afraid of being replaced by the Guardians, then spent time free loading off John when they lived together. John was notably underutilized in the Johns run, so a close relationship was never believable given their previous history. The Hal and John had multiple conflicts in the Venditti/Jensen era.







    By contrast, Hal has brotherly relationships with Kyle and Guy and respectful working relationships with the rest.

    Thorne is creating a new clique with Jo, Simon, and Keli.

    Simon is also close with Jessica, due to their extensive time working together.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 07-29-2021 at 10:55 AM.

  6. #621
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 07-29-2021 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #622
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 07-29-2021 at 11:07 AM.

  8. #623
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Hal and John were portrayed as being pretty close friends during the start of the Johns run.

    I never heard the DCAU based Wally on Guy at all.

  9. #624
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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  10. #625
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Hal and John were portrayed as being pretty close friends during the start of the Johns run.

    I never heard the DCAU based Wally on Guy at all.
    All I recall is a baseball game that Guy and Kyle also attended, the four being in Martin's apartment after SCW, and John sticking it to Batman on hehalf of Hal. The last of which is the strongest argument but entirely inconsistent with what's been shown before or since. The fact that John was used as a prop and nothing more at the time made it feel like Johns was only interested in seeing him lick boots.

    Edit-- There was also John and Guy defending Hal from the Lost Lanterns, but that doesn't mean John is tight with Hal like he is with Guy.

    Bruce Timm on the Flash and Batman: “Batman and Flash’s relationship is much more like Batman and Guy Gardner’s relationship in the Keith Giffen, Kevin Maguire, and J.M. DeMatteis days of Justice League. Flash is kind of cocky and rude and Batman…well, he’s Batman (courtesy of Wizard Magazine).”
    http://jl.popgeeks.com/flash/flash.htm
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 07-29-2021 at 12:55 PM.

  11. #626
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    I would say Hal & John were fairly close. I think they drifted apart once John got hooked on tragedy porn by various writers. Geoff made it a habit of having Hal neglect most of his previous relationships, imo.

    As a fan of both heroes, I think it has been a missed opportunity to rexamine their rather unique history.

    Plus, both had significant connections with Katma Tui. I think her death is what caused them to drift, and started the stoic persona John adapted.

  12. #627
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    All I recall is a baseball game that Guy and Kyle also attended, the four being in Martin's apartment after SCW, and John sticking it to Batman on hehalf of Hal. The last of which is the strongest argument but entirely inconsistent with what's been shown before or since. The fact that John was used as a prop and nothing more at the time made it feel like Johns was only interested in seeing him lick boots.
    I was thinking more like how Hal and John worked together to take down Amon Sur. And whose boots was he licking just by defending a friend?
    Edit-- There was also John and Guy defending Hal from the Lost Lanterns, but that doesn't mean John is tight with Hal like he is with Guy.



    http://jl.popgeeks.com/flash/flash.htm
    You'd think you'd vocally defend someone you were pretty close with.

    Glad Wally didn't get one punched.

  13. #628
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I was thinking more like how Hal and John worked together to take down Amon Sur. And whose boots was he licking just by defending a friend?

    You'd think you'd vocally defend someone you were pretty close with.

    Glad Wally didn't get one punched.
    Again, that's a working relationship, not being close enough to talk about deeply personal issues, like Hal does with say Ollie.

    It is boot licking when it isn't ever reciprocated. A real friendship is supposed to be a two-way street. At no point did other characters ever show any interest in John's issues or what he was going through. That's why as a side character (barely even that), no parts of his past or family or goals were ever explored, as with other side characters at the time, like Guy and Kyle. John was a two dimensional cheerleader at best. Simping for people who don't give two ****s about him. The writers didn't even try to develop him. Once they were forced to move on from hitting Xanshi beats over and over again, they tried to recreate that trauma with Mogo and John being a cold-blooded killer--pretty much recycling the same lazy beat because they weren't interested in anything more with him. There's really no defending it. And as soon as the writers changed, things dramatically started to improve for John, so it's no coincidence. That said, the relationships are still canon. The history is still relevant.

    In the first season of the show, I'm sure Bats wanted to, lol.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 07-29-2021 at 08:33 PM.

  14. #629
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    So due to some comments in other threads I decided I wanted to get a couple of people's opinions and this seemed like the best place for it. I thought about asking this in the John Stewart or Hal Jordan thread, but seeing as bringing up other GL usually dissolve into fighting, and the mention of those two threads is probably ringing the alarm in people's heads right now I thought it better to ask it here since most GL fans talk here probably.

    With that out of the way my question is how do you guys feel about the relationship between John and Hal? It's no surprise the Hal being one the most recognized figure in the GL fandom would have iconic moments between both the human GLs and the alien GLs. But are Hal and John as close as they should be? Hal was told to bring in and train John when he first got his ring. He healed John when he was crippled and, I'm not fully sure here, got John a job at Ferris Air as an architect. He briefly also lived with John. John was tied to Hal a lot more back then than he is now. Do you believe they're as close as need be, or were there missed opportunities for the two to be closer?

    I bring this up because some said John, along with a handful of other things I don't want to mention in fear of causing no
    arguements, that John had no real relationship with any of the GLs besides a few conversations. I'm really hoping this doesn't close the thread with arguments as I'm curious what Hal fans think about John and the relationship between the two. Please forgive the long winded question.
    Hal & John's relationship is one of the great underdeveloped elements of GL comics, unfortunately.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Hal & John's relationship is one of the great underdeveloped elements of GL comics, unfortunately.
    Yeah, I'm still hoping if those two appear together in live action, then writers will dig into their history within the books.

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