"Beware Their Power" - Green Lantern Mythos Appreciation 2021

[EmeraldGladiator]

that Guardian looks ominous.

[SJNeal]

A million years ago, when this was released, I asked my LCS owner to order me one. Young, dumb, broke me didn't realize I'd actually have to pay for it, and I had to pass once it arrived. The shop owner was *not* happy with me!

Maybe I should track one down on eBay...

[Robanker]

I don't know how many new fans DC PTB think they will get by trying to make out of the closet Alan Scott cannon, it's going to cost them at least this one long time JSA fan in general and Alan Scott fan in particular. I tried with Earth 2 ok because it is an alternative universe tale but this if it continues will keep me from purchasing any projects with him and majorly tempers any excitement for this HBO Max GL project I would normally be uber excited for. Funny thing is I haven't seen any evidence that this version of Alan Scott is more commercially viable for DC. The Johns JSA version was one of DC top selling titles. Earth 2 was far from a hit. Then DC has a habit of not giving the fans what they want because I don't get the logic of yet another reboot Legion instead of going back to it's most commercially viable version of the team (the original/retroboot version). Some complain DC is run by the nostalgia crowd but tell that to the Legion and Alan Scott who seem to be suffering for it. Put me in the "Not my Alan (and therefore not my JSA) and not my Legion either" club. Rant generated by rumored upcoming changes at DC.

Long-time DC reader of over 25 years here. Alan's been my favorite GL for most my adult life (I don't buy a lot of Pop Vinyls but I have him at my desk at work), and I think the change for him in particular could work. I do see a big potential upside. Of course they could completely botch the execution and make him a really bad flamboyant stereotype instead of maintaining his character while making him gay. I don't think that's going to happen. Hell, it adds to the tragedy of him not being able to be there for his son as he was growing up because when Todd came out of the closet, Alan would have been able to be there and support him by telling his son he knows exactly what that burden is like. Instead Alan has to know he could have made his son's life a lot easier but wasn't around to do so.

It opens up a lot of story potential for Alan Scott. Yes, he was heterosexual and had two marriages before. Yes, he loved his wife and even sometimes broke his usual stoicism for the rare romantic exchange. It didn't happen often, however, and unlike other characters he rarely expressed any sexual interest in much of anyone. It's still a big change and I'm very cautious with which characters we swap over, but Alan feels like a good choice. There's a ton of narrative potential and he's always been portrayed as emotionally guarded for the last, what, forty+ years? He's the stiff upper lip man's man of yesteryear. Unlike some characters I can't imagine ever being in the closet, I can see it with Alan. He was raised in a society that told him his feelings were a sickness and to be ashamed of. That he was a deviant. That he'd be shunned and his businesses shuttered should his perversion see the light. That's true of many gay men of that era. It's a throughline that continues and gives Alan a lot of added story potential instead of DC's usual approach of finding a female character, having her kiss a woman and patting themselves on the back for being so progressive but never doing anything with them outside of Elseworlds.

Hell, look at Diana.

"She's totes bi, but we'll never show it although we'll allude to stuff off panel and use her as our most forward-facing LGBTQ+ hero."

They just broke her up with Steve Trevor. Make a new love interest for her and have that character be a woman. She's been with men for eighty years. I know it's not correct to think that bisexual characters need to "prove" it by having partners of both sexes, but over eighty years? Can even Plas make that stretch? I'm giving them five more years and then I'm just writing it off as lip service. They confirmed she likes women too in Rucka's second run. A decade is long enough to find one story where she's with a woman that can't be discounted as "that other Earth where things are different." Believe it or not, representation actually needs to be represented.

Alan is the rare time a male hero is used for this and with him he brings the potential for a great arc. They could also ruin him Bobby Drake style by derailing him with the ugliest coming out story I've ever seen: being forcibly dragged out of the closet by his straight(?) white friend. Time will tell, but I'm not against it with Alan as I would be other characters where I don't think it's the right call.


Please don't bring up "then make new gay GLs" because the market has shown it's toxic to 99% of new characters and DC really wants to improve the diversity of their line. We already have far too many earth GLs as it is, no less, and to my knowledge only Alan (who isn't even part of the primary thrust of the IP) and Jo are not heterosexual. It's why the Future State squad has more diversity in pretty much every respect. Those characters have the best shot of sticking around because while some instantly landed (Yara), others feel like they'll be gone in ten years (Jess, sadly). Some are lucky enough to be the kids of beloved heroes (Andy) so they may be able to survive that way.

But new characters generally don't sell except to speculators and don't get their own books because, again, they don't sell big. Do I wish other characters could take off and old ones not change? Absolutely, but the market refuses to support that, so here we are. Alan is one of the best case scenarios for this so we'll see how they pull it off. Perhaps making him bi would have been safer, but DC doesn't have a lot of prominent gay male characters.

The Legion is a completely different issue at the moment and not really appropriate for this thread.

[Frontier]

that Guardian looks ominous.

Yeah, kind of wondering what he's doing/thinking there .

[Robanker]

Yeah, kind of wondering what he's doing/thinking there .

And here I was wondering who clocked him and put him in the cone of shame. Then I see Hal's glowing fist and it all checks out. lol

[SJNeal]

What Robanker said above? That.

I'm cautiously optimistic, personally. Depending on which writer is handling Alan's coming out (and beyond), there's a lot of potential there.

[Johnny]

I don't know how many new fans DC PTB think they will get by trying to make out of the closet Alan Scott cannon, it's going to cost them at least this one long time JSA fan in general and Alan Scott fan in particular. I tried with Earth 2 ok because it is an alternative universe tale but this if it continues will keep me from purchasing any projects with him and majorly tempers any excitement for this HBO Max GL project I would normally be uber excited for. Funny thing is I haven't seen any evidence that this version of Alan Scott is more commercially viable for DC. The Johns JSA version was one of DC top selling titles. Earth 2 was far from a hit. Then DC has a habit of not giving the fans what they want because I don't get the logic of yet another reboot Legion instead of going back to it's most commercially viable version of the team (the original/retroboot version). Some complain DC is run by the nostalgia crowd but tell that to the Legion and Alan Scott who seem to be suffering for it. Put me in the "Not my Alan (and therefore not my JSA) and not my Legion either" club. Rant generated by rumored upcoming changes at DC.

I think higher-ups always operate on "nostalgia" to a degree. Makes no difference if one is nostalgic towards the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze age or anything else. Years from now they can put someone in charge who used to love the New-52 and he or she would try to bring "their" nostalgia back. Comic book publishers are always run by "fanboys", the only thing that matters to a lot of fans when it comes to nostalgia is whether those higher-ups happen to share the same nostalgia they do. If the current management likes Alan, they will invest in him, whether he's reimagined as a gay man or not.

[Gaius]

I thought making the more traditional WW2-era Alan gay (or bi) is more interesting than the revamped New 52 version of him. Adds an interesting wrinkle to his kind of standard stoic 1940s leading man character.

[EmeraldGladiator]

very good point Johnny, makes me wonder how much of my love for Geoff Johns is his writing style/vision and how much of it is the fact that his nostalgia so closely matches my own.

[SJNeal]

I think higher-ups always operate on "nostalgia" to a degree. Makes no difference if one is nostalgic towards the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze age or anything else. Years from now they can put someone in charge who used to love the New-52 and he or she would try to bring "their" nostalgia back. Comic book publishers are always run by "fanboys", the only thing that matters to a lot of fans when it comes to nostalgia is whether those higher-ups happen to share the same nostalgia they do. If the current management likes Alan, they will invest in him, whether he's reimagined as a gay man or not.

very good point Johnny, makes me wonder how much of my love for Geoff Johns is his writing style/vision and how much of it is the fact that his nostalgia so closely matches my own.

This echoes what Joshua Williamson states in the recent podcast that's been floating around. He mentions that the guys running DC editorial now all grew up in the 90's*, and that era is a touchstone for them, in regards to continuity and what they do/don't want to use. He personally cites Mark Waid's The Flash as a huge inspiration for his own run.



*Which also makes since considering AT&T laid off all of the tenured ($$) editors last year.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Long-time DC reader of over 25 years here. Alan's been my favorite GL for most my adult life (I don't buy a lot of Pop Vinyls but I have him at my desk at work), and I think the change for him in particular could work. I do see a big potential upside. Of course they could completely botch the execution and make him a really bad flamboyant stereotype instead of maintaining his character while making him gay. I don't think that's going to happen. Hell, it adds to the tragedy of him not being able to be there for his son as he was growing up because when Todd came out of the closet, Alan would have been able to be there and support him by telling his son he knows exactly what that burden is like. Instead Alan has to know he could have made his son's life a lot easier but wasn't around to do so.

It opens up a lot of story potential for Alan Scott. Yes, he was heterosexual and had two marriages before. Yes, he loved his wife and even sometimes broke his usual stoicism for the rare romantic exchange. It didn't happen often, however, and unlike other characters he rarely expressed any sexual interest in much of anyone. It's still a big change and I'm very cautious with which characters we swap over, but Alan feels like a good choice. There's a ton of narrative potential and he's always been portrayed as emotionally guarded for the last, what, forty+ years? He's the stiff upper lip man's man of yesteryear. Unlike some characters I can't imagine ever being in the closet, I can see it with Alan. He was raised in a society that told him his feelings were a sickness and to be ashamed of. That he was a deviant. That he'd be shunned and his businesses shuttered should his perversion see the light. That's true of many gay men of that era. It's a throughline that continues and gives Alan a lot of added story potential instead of DC's usual approach of finding a female character, having her kiss a woman and patting themselves on the back for being so progressive but never doing anything with them outside of Elseworlds.

Hell, look at Diana.

"She's totes bi, but we'll never show it although we'll allude to stuff off panel and use her as our most forward-facing LGBTQ+ hero."

They just broke her up with Steve Trevor. Make a new love interest for her and have that character be a woman. She's been with men for eighty years. I know it's not correct to think that bisexual characters need to "prove" it by having partners of both sexes, but over eighty years? Can even Plas make that stretch? I'm giving them five more years and then I'm just writing it off as lip service. They confirmed she likes women too in Rucka's second run. A decade is long enough to find one story where she's with a woman that can't be discounted as "that other Earth where things are different." Believe it or not, representation actually needs to be represented.

Alan is the rare time a male hero is used for this and with him he brings the potential for a great arc. They could also ruin him Bobby Drake style by derailing him with the ugliest coming out story I've ever seen: being forcibly dragged out of the closet by his straight(?) white friend. Time will tell, but I'm not against it with Alan as I would be other characters where I don't think it's the right call.


Please don't bring up "then make new gay GLs" because the market has shown it's toxic to 99% of new characters and DC really wants to improve the diversity of their line. We already have far too many earth GLs as it is, no less, and to my knowledge only Alan (who isn't even part of the primary thrust of the IP) and Jo are not heterosexual. It's why the Future State squad has more diversity in pretty much every respect. Those characters have the best shot of sticking around because while some instantly landed (Yara), others feel like they'll be gone in ten years (Jess, sadly). Some are lucky enough to be the kids of beloved heroes (Andy) so they may be able to survive that way.

But new characters generally don't sell except to speculators and don't get their own books because, again, they don't sell big. Do I wish other characters could take off and old ones not change? Absolutely, but the market refuses to support that, so here we are. Alan is one of the best case scenarios for this so we'll see how they pull it off. Perhaps making him bi would have been safer, but DC doesn't have a lot of prominent gay male characters.

Very good points, My problem with Alan and the GLC is I don't like my favorite pillar of the DCU being used the easiest road to forced diversity in the DCU. I love the result of John being the GL of the JLA in the animated series, it sucks for me at least because I would like to see more Hal JLA stories, worse yet when they replaced even John for the likes of Simon, Kyle and Jessica. Then the DCU needs more LGBTU representation, hey lets use a Green Lantern for that; lets use Alan even though Obsidian an existing character and Alan's son already filled that void. While they would never use other major established characters in the Batman (Batwoman not withstanding), Superman or Flash universes. Alan has a definite history if they wanted to just out a prominent member of the JSA Dr Midnight doesn't have as much of an established romantic history but DC higher ups wanted the buzz of saying Green Lantern is gay when they changed Alan in Earth 2. They knew what the general public would first think (Hal or John). I think DC needs more diversity but I am tired of the GL franchise being their go to option for bringing it to the DCU. Nothing homophobic about it. I love Far Sector, my favorite DC ongoing (hopefully). I love Jo and have no problem with her bi-status. Everybody has their favorite characters I am sure Gleek is somebodies favorite member of the Super Friends however it's no fun when your favorite characters are repeatedly changed just to make a point.

[Johnny]

very good point Johnny, makes me wonder how much of my love for Geoff Johns is his writing style/vision and how much of it is the fact that his nostalgia so closely matches my own.

It can be both. Geoff Johns liked certain characters and he was fortunately talented enough to help make them more popular than they ever were before. I think if they can find someone do for Alan what Johns did for Hal and others it can turn out to be great. Now don't get me wrong, if they see Alan being gay as the only thing that can make him stand out and end up giving him the forced coming out moment that Robanker referred to previously, that would suck. If they botch his push and then toss him aside if it doesn't work, then unfortunately they'd prove they don't care about him as a character as much as they needed to say they have a Green Lantern who is a gay man. I hope it's not like that and they actually respect the character and have good plans in the pipeline for him. The guy is slated to be a TV star soon as well, try not to botch that. :>

[Robanker]

Very good points, My problem with Alan and the GLC is I don't like my favorite pillar of the DCU being used the easiest road to forced diversity in the DCU. I love the result of John being the GL of the JLA in the animated series, it sucks for me at least because I would like to see more Hal JLA stories, worse yet when they replaced even John for the likes of Simon, Kyle and Jessica. Then the DCU needs more LGBTU representation, hey lets use a Green Lantern for that; lets use Alan even though Obsidian an existing character and Alan's son already filled that void. While they would never use other major established characters in the Batman (Batwoman not withstanding), Superman or Flash universes. Alan has a definite history if they wanted to just out a prominent member of the JSA Dr Midnight doesn't have as much of an established romantic history but DC higher ups wanted the buzz of saying Green Lantern is gay when they changed Alan in Earth 2. They knew what the general public would first think (Hal or John). I think DC needs more diversity but I am tired of the GL franchise being their go to option for bringing it to the DCU. Nothing homophobic about it. I love Far Sector, my favorite DC ongoing (hopefully). I love Jo and have no problem with her bi-status. Everybody has their favorite characters I am sure Gleek is somebodies favorite member of the Super Friends however it's no fun when your favorite characters are repeatedly changed just to make a point.

The problem with Pieter Cross is that who the hell is Doctor Mid-Nite? I love him to pieces, but he's D-List. Green Lantern is an A-List name even if Alan is arguably B-List.

Representation along the wall when all the premier characters on the dance floor are white straight (save Diana sometimes) people and John Stewart isn't representation. It's just window dressing. Alan is the chair of the JSA often times and was the Superman of his era. He's a big deal. He's one of DC's most respected heroes in universe.

He told Amanda Waller to stuff it and she had to. Amanda Waller. She had her own agenda, but when Alan barked, even she listened. That's why he's one of the best candidates-- he's a character of immense presence as well as the points I listed.

I understand the frustration of seeing a beloved character change, hell there are some where I'd be really angry about myself, but thinking of any changes as forced diversity is weird. Was it forced diversity (of thought and politics) when O'Neil/Adams reinvented Oliver Queen into a leftist? Was it forced diversity (of sexes) when they put Hawkgirl on the JLA over Aquaman in the animated series so Diana wouldn't be the only woman? Why is it forced when non white-people or non-heterosexual people want a seat at the table that actually gets respect? I don't really like racebending characters when we have perfectly wonderful characters that can be used (Black Lightning, Vixen, Dr. Light, Fire, Jaime Reyes, Ryan Choi, etc) but I understand it's going to happen. It's not forced for a business to want to expand their market outside the dwindling one they're watching slip through their fingers and a lot of people want to see themselves on the page-- that's always been true. Superman was popular because people wanted to be him and still do. Sometimes it's the powers. Sometimes it's being the person who is incorruptible and does the right thing. It isn't just us white people who want to see themselves on the page doing that.

I'm not saying that we can only see ourselves in characters that resemble us exactly, but when people keep hearing that them showing up is "forced change" it drives them away. I'm sorry but this line of thinking turned a passionate new fan (someone I care for very deeply) into someone who abandoned the industry because at every turn guys would remind her she's not wanted. Her showing up on the page was forced diversity. "Get out." She still likes a lot of elements from comics I got her into. She still likes Ollie and Dinah, but she has no interest in investing in the community or stories because it just reminds her of how much heterosexual white men cannot tolerate her existing in their fantasy worlds. That's what this sort of behavior pushes, dude. It's fucking wrong.

I fell off Far Sector and plan to pick it back up when it's done, but Jo was great and I'm glad to see her in Future State. Let's look at the flip side. When Hal went nuts and they needed a new GL, why not pick from Guy or John? Hell, you could dust off Charlie Vicker who was essentially a blank slate by that point. Instead, you guessed it, new white dude.

I'm not saying they shouldn't create new heroes who are male, white, straight or all three but it's foolish to think that each new character is going to take off and tick boxes that matter. There's dangerously little Latino representation in Metropolis for example. Yeah, you have Gangbuster, La Enchantadora and others but they're wallflowers-- only used by the writers who introduced them and then fade away. For representation to matter and stick they need to be prominent figures. Look, again, I understand where you're coming from because there are some characters I think it's wrong for but Alan isn't one of them. He ticks all the right boxes and has more of an upside than a downside and I don't see any negative reasoning behind their decision.

I don't see any "we need gay people so just make the girls kiss and we'll sell some extra issues." I don't see any "they want gays? Fine, make the feminist gay because straight women are obedient and know their place." This doesn't feel like "Why did they have to make the manly one gay? Why not girly boy?" You may think I'm strawmaning those, but I've heard them from my father's generation (which is the same one that was running DC until recently and they come from similar communities, so I feel it's probably closer to home than I'm comfortable with) ad naseum. With Alan all I'm seeing is "there's a big story to tell here." Is there a cynical reason they made Alan gay? Yes. They're a business and they want to appear progressive and get the most money they can. Literally everything they do is about money including printing every other straight hero. The creatives in charge? I don't get the backwords-thinking old man vibes I got from the misogynist "marriage ends the story" "all our gays are hot chicks" and "we have black people over there in team books and we don't use actual black flesh tones for them half the time" that I got from previous regimes.

A lot of Didio's era (especially where guys like Carlin and Berganza were involved) felt a lot like trying to do a good thing for all the wrong reasons. They only had interest in LGBTQ+ when it was hot to them. They did the marriage and then kept trying to end it because how dare my Superman not be a young, hip swinger? They would talk about empowering, strong women who they'd have wedge their thongs between their butt cheeks and break their backs every panel. They'd talk about drama and stuff Alex into a fridge to make Kyle feel bad. There was a lot of trying to do something interesting in the most tone-deaf way possible with really shitty reasoning and that's before we get into the office politics.

It could fumble and be executed poorly, but I'm hopeful for Alan.

This is an appreciation, thread, dammit. Let's move on to funner discussion, like how much I wish this was a statue.



Source

[Johnny]

This echoes what Joshua Williamson states in the recent podcast that's been floating around. He mentions that the guys running DC editorial now all grew up in the 90's*, and that era is a touchstone for them, in regards to continuity and what they do/don't want to use. He personally cites Mark Waid's The Flash as a huge inspiration for his own run.



*Which also makes since considering AT&T laid off all of the tenured ($$) editors last year.

Can someone send a link to that podcast please. Sounds interesting if he delves into the creative process behind the scenes.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Robanker I get your A-lister point but I offer Mr. Terrific, the original which only beat out Ma Hunkle in notoriety, was replaced by a diverse character, who became my 2nd favorite JSA'er in Johns' JSA. So powerful a character that he and I guess Stargirl were the only members of the JSA who were kept active in the modern DCU, and even got his own title while most of the JSA are in limbo.
JohnnyAs for Earth-2's Alan, I was desperate for JSA content so despite my furrowed brow over changing Alan, I gave it a shot. If written well it might have won me over but I never got the point. Alan's love interest was killed in the first arc first 4 issues volume 1, he never got another throughout the 3 volumes of Earth 2 comics. There seemed to be zero point beyond the buzz of saying we have a gay green Lantern in the pre solicits in the book. I fear gay Alan is the doorway to getting the HBO Max show green lit because a majority of shows have to have representation to be green lit and the New Frontier rewrite is being done in support of the TV show. If it leads to great stories , it will make the changes more palpable but no one wants something they prize lessened just for a pop that quickly "pops" and changes nothing substantially for the better long term but hurts a beloved property for ages if not forever. Alcoholism gave depth to Tony Stark, Hank Pym never recovered from the slap heard round the world. What good came from that? I just don't want that for Alan.