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  1. #106
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    https://www.denofgeek.com/comics/bat...lot-scarecrow/

    Sounds like Cass and Stephanie are in Joker ongoing as Agents of Oracle

    "The Gordon family is a very central force in the book, and tied very closely into that is the new arrangement in which we have Barbara Gordon working a bit more [behind the scenes, but] has not fully given up the Batgirl costume. But she is working more and more as Oracle again. And because she’s behind the computer, she is using Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown as her agents in the field, as her Batgirls. And so we are playing and building out that whole dynamic.

    I’m very happy about it. :laughs: And we have big plans for all of the Batgirl characters in the line that will become more and more clear as the year goes on."
    I'm guessing they'll be appearing sporadically across multiple books.

    (Where's my Batgirls ongoing?)

  2. #107
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Am I the only who really doesn't like having Cass and Steph being Batgirls at the same time? Unless they're operating out of two different cities (Steph in Bludhaven and Cass in Gotham for example), it really irks me to have a batgirls duo because;

    1) you don't see that nonsense with robin

    2)It implies that Cass and Steph time as batgirl are of equal importance and hold the same weight when it's simply not true. This isn't me trying to reduce Steph batgirl run (i own all the trades and like her time as batgirl although I firmly believe robin!Steph > batgirl!Steph) but it's a disservice to Cass character and minimises the impact and important role Cass played in Batgirl legacy. Not only was Cass run as batgirl a decade long while Steph's only lasted 6 months, but there literally wouldn't be a Steph Batgirl serie (and n52 and rebirth Batgirl Babs) without Cassandra. Cass not only revitalised the Batgirl mantle, but got Batgirl to be popular again all while being one of the only female characters of colour with an ongoing solo at the time.

    Unlike Steph, Cass has only ever been batgirl and she got that title stripped away from her not for character growth but for bs editorial reasons. Steph being Spoiler or Robin doesn't take way from her time as Batgirl or diminish her history the way Cass being orphan does. J like how Duke being the signal doesn't erase his time as Robin or his place and importance in the batfam.

    But most importantly, the Steph and Cass batgirl duo is pretty much just a costume change for Cass because she still doesn't get to truly be anywhere near the pre flashpolint batgirl we know and love. She's sidelined and treated as Steph sidekick where Steph is put front and center with Cass doing some martial art in the background with a few lines of dialogue thrown Cass' way (it happened during league of batgirls one shot, the whole time Cass and Steph were on tec together and in future state during the batgirl story).

    Now that Damian isn't robin anymore Steph should get take the Robin mantle again. Robin was actually a role that Steph took for herself and felt she had finally found her footing (until Bruce started to act like an asshole to her yet again), whereas Batgirl was a mantle thrusted upon her and she always felt like she was an impostor, second to Cass and living in her shadows, while Steph felt truly fulfilled as Robin. The Robin and Batgirl dynamic duo should come back with Cass and Steph.

  3. #108
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Am I the only who really doesn't like having Cass and Steph being Batgirls at the same time? Unless they're operating out of two different cities (Steph in Bludhaven and Cass in Gotham for example), it really irks me to have a batgirls duo because;

    1) you don't see that nonsense with robin

    2)It implies that Cass and Steph time as batgirl are of equal importance and hold the same weight when it's simply not true. This isn't me trying to reduce Steph batgirl run (i own all the trades and like her time as batgirl although I firmly believe robin!Steph > batgirl!Steph) but it's a disservice to Cass character and minimises the impact and important role Cass played in Batgirl legacy. Not only was Cass run as batgirl a decade long while Steph's only lasted 6 months, but there literally wouldn't be a Steph Batgirl serie (and n52 and rebirth Batgirl Babs) without Cassandra. Cass not only revitalised the Batgirl mantle, but got Batgirl to be popular again all while being one of the only female characters of colour with an ongoing solo at the time.

    Unlike Steph, Cass has only ever been batgirl and she got that title stripped away from her not for character growth but for bs editorial reasons. Steph being Spoiler or Robin doesn't take way from her time as Batgirl or diminish her history the way Cass being orphan does. J like how Duke being the signal doesn't erase his time as Robin or his place and importance in the batfam.

    But most importantly, the Steph and Cass batgirl duo is pretty much just a costume change for Cass because she still doesn't get to truly be anywhere near the pre flashpolint batgirl we know and love. She's sidelined and treated as Steph sidekick where Steph is put front and center with Cass doing some martial art in the background with a few lines of dialogue thrown Cass' way (it happened during league of batgirls one shot, the whole time Cass and Steph were on tec together and in future state during the batgirl story).

    Now that Damian isn't robin anymore Steph should get take the Robin mantle again. Robin was actually a role that Steph took for herself and felt she had finally found her footing (until Bruce started to act like an asshole to her yet again), whereas Batgirl was a mantle thrusted upon her and she always felt like she was an impostor, second to Cass and living in her shadows, while Steph felt truly fulfilled as Robin. The Robin and Batgirl dynamic duo should come back with Cass and Steph.
    I think it's fine for now in that it acknowledges their legacy and is putting both of them out there. I prefer Steph as Spoiler (and she still looks like Spoiler) but now they're acknowledging both her and Cass's tenrue.

    Damian's getting a Robin solo.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Am I the only who really doesn't like having Cass and Steph being Batgirls at the same time? Unless they're operating out of two different cities (Steph in Bludhaven and Cass in Gotham for example), it really irks me to have a batgirls duo because;

    1) you don't see that nonsense with robin

    2)It implies that Cass and Steph time as batgirl are of equal importance and hold the same weight when it's simply not true. This isn't me trying to reduce Steph batgirl run (i own all the trades and like her time as batgirl although I firmly believe robin!Steph > batgirl!Steph) but it's a disservice to Cass character and minimises the impact and important role Cass played in Batgirl legacy. Not only was Cass run as batgirl a decade long while Steph's only lasted 6 months, but there literally wouldn't be a Steph Batgirl serie (and n52 and rebirth Batgirl Babs) without Cassandra. Cass not only revitalised the Batgirl mantle, but got Batgirl to be popular again all while being one of the only female characters of colour with an ongoing solo at the time.

    Unlike Steph, Cass has only ever been batgirl and she got that title stripped away from her not for character growth but for bs editorial reasons. Steph being Spoiler or Robin doesn't take way from her time as Batgirl or diminish her history the way Cass being orphan does. J like how Duke being the signal doesn't erase his time as Robin or his place and importance in the batfam.

    But most importantly, the Steph and Cass batgirl duo is pretty much just a costume change for Cass because she still doesn't get to truly be anywhere near the pre flashpolint batgirl we know and love. She's sidelined and treated as Steph sidekick where Steph is put front and center with Cass doing some martial art in the background with a few lines of dialogue thrown Cass' way (it happened during league of batgirls one shot, the whole time Cass and Steph were on tec together and in future state during the batgirl story).

    Now that Damian isn't robin anymore Steph should get take the Robin mantle again. Robin was actually a role that Steph took for herself and felt she had finally found her footing (until Bruce started to act like an asshole to her yet again), whereas Batgirl was a mantle thrusted upon her and she always felt like she was an impostor, second to Cass and living in her shadows, while Steph felt truly fulfilled as Robin. The Robin and Batgirl dynamic duo should come back with Cass and Steph.
    I really like Cass, but she isn't really the reason why there is New52 Barbara Batgirl.

    They will probably give Barbara a Batgirl solo in New52 even if Cass doesn't exist.

    The Batgirl mantle has always been pretty popular. The reason why Barbara as Batgirl (and Dick as Robin) never have a solo is because that wasn't common at that time. And TKJ prevented her to have a solo in 90s.


    The reason why DC needs to use Cassandra and Stephanie as Batgirls is because they don't trust the current popularity of these characters.

    Unfortunately, the popularity of Cassandra has been strongly affected by DC's mismanagament (even before that she seems less popular than Tim).


    PS: I would love Stephanie as Robin, but it seems that mantle will be mainly on Damian.
    Last edited by Konja7; 02-23-2021 at 07:12 PM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's fine for now in that it acknowledges their legacy and is putting both of them out there. I prefer Steph as Spoiler (and she still looks like Spoiler) but now they're acknowledging both her and Cass's tenrue.

    Damian's getting a Robin solo.
    I still hope Stephanie will have a suit similar to her old Batgirl suit at the end.

    Surprisingy, I think it would be convenient for Cassandra that Stephanie has a "traditional" Batgirl suit, since they are being presented as a Batgirl duo

    If Stephanie still look like Spoiler in Batgirls, it is pretty possible they make Cassandra still be Orphan in her Batgirl suit.

  6. #111
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    Didn't Bruce make Stephanie Robin in order to convince Tim to come back? That never sat right with me. It's not like her mom was 'in the know' about her vigilante work either, which is kind of messed up for Bruce to conceal. I much prefer Stephanie as Batgirl...now that title was a breath of fresh air. She never to my mind felt like she was "living in Cass's shadow" if anything the emotional core was her connection with Babs and her seeing her younger self in Steph to some degree. She had to earn respect and trust from Babs, Dick, and Damian. They had this tentative, promising dynamic building. The dynamic between Robin-Damian and Batgirl-Steph beats out Tim and Cass in terms of how much I enjoyed reading it. They were a lot of fun and I wish it lasted longer.

    Damian should stay Robin for a good long while. He's still a kid, whereas Tim is almost 18 and pre-reboot was nearly Dick's peer. It seems like a demotion to give him the mantle back.

    That said, at this point, DC doesn't have any interest in making Cass or Steph *the* Batgirl again. But it is Bab's mantle, and she was never a sidekick in the way Robin was meant to be, so I don't necessarily agree that being Batgirl or Batgirl and Oracle is a step backward for Babs. It's certainly better for her IP to remain Batgirl.

  7. #112
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Am I the only who really doesn't like having Cass and Steph being Batgirls at the same time? Unless they're operating out of two different cities (Steph in Bludhaven and Cass in Gotham for example), it really irks me to have a batgirls duo because;

    1) you don't see that nonsense with robin

    2)It implies that Cass and Steph time as batgirl are of equal importance and hold the same weight when it's simply not true. This isn't me trying to reduce Steph batgirl run (i own all the trades and like her time as batgirl although I firmly believe robin!Steph > batgirl!Steph) but it's a disservice to Cass character and minimises the impact and important role Cass played in Batgirl legacy. Not only was Cass run as batgirl a decade long while Steph's only lasted 6 months,
    Two years. It was her Robin tenure that only lasted a few months.
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  8. #113
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Am I the only who really doesn't like having Cass and Steph being Batgirls at the same time? Unless they're operating out of two different cities (Steph in Bludhaven and Cass in Gotham for example), it really irks me to have a batgirls duo because;

    1) you don't see that nonsense with robin

    2)It implies that Cass and Steph time as batgirl are of equal importance and hold the same weight when it's simply not true. This isn't me trying to reduce Steph batgirl run (i own all the trades and like her time as batgirl although I firmly believe robin!Steph > batgirl!Steph) but it's a disservice to Cass character and minimises the impact and important role Cass played in Batgirl legacy. Not only was Cass run as batgirl a decade long while Steph's only lasted 6 months, but there literally wouldn't be a Steph Batgirl serie (and n52 and rebirth Batgirl Babs) without Cassandra. Cass not only revitalised the Batgirl mantle, but got Batgirl to be popular again all while being one of the only female characters of colour with an ongoing solo at the time.

    Unlike Steph, Cass has only ever been batgirl and she got that title stripped away from her not for character growth but for bs editorial reasons. Steph being Spoiler or Robin doesn't take way from her time as Batgirl or diminish her history the way Cass being orphan does. J like how Duke being the signal doesn't erase his time as Robin or his place and importance in the batfam.

    But most importantly, the Steph and Cass batgirl duo is pretty much just a costume change for Cass because she still doesn't get to truly be anywhere near the pre flashpolint batgirl we know and love. She's sidelined and treated as Steph sidekick where Steph is put front and center with Cass doing some martial art in the background with a few lines of dialogue thrown Cass' way (it happened during league of batgirls one shot, the whole time Cass and Steph were on tec together and in future state during the batgirl story).

    Now that Damian isn't robin anymore Steph should get take the Robin mantle again. Robin was actually a role that Steph took for herself and felt she had finally found her footing (until Bruce started to act like an asshole to her yet again), whereas Batgirl was a mantle thrusted upon her and she always felt like she was an impostor, second to Cass and living in her shadows, while Steph felt truly fulfilled as Robin. The Robin and Batgirl dynamic duo should come back with Cass and Steph.
    You don't see that nonsense with Robin because DC doesn't erase Robinhood. It's a long side effect of the DC top brass preferring Barbara that the current writers have to do this.

  9. #114
    All-New Member Ruthborn's Avatar
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    I do so love discovering new Cass stuff.

    s-l640.jpg

    https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...m-city-mystery

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I prefer Steph as Spoiler and Cass as the main Batgirl or at very least something like 'Black Bat'.

    Though I understand why they are bringing back Cass, Steph and Babs as Batgirl. They are trying to bring back all the fans that were left alienated by all the editorial micromanagement in the 00's and 10's. Didio and co screwed over Steph as Spoiler then screwed over Cass, imo, bringing back Steph as Batgirl and erasing Cass was just more of their troll games so they could pit the fan bases against each and also so they could have someone they deemed acceptable (i.e white) under the cowl to fulfill their nostalgia impression of who Babs Batgirl was.
    Last edited by John Venus; 03-02-2021 at 03:53 PM.

  11. #116
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I prefer Steph as Spoiler and Cass as the main Batgirl or at very least something like 'Black Bat'.

    Though I understand why they are bringing back Cass, Steph and Babs as Batgirl. They are trying to bring back all the fans that were left alienated by all the editorial micromanagement in the 00's and 10's. Didio and co screwed over Steph as Spoiler then screwed over Cass, imo, having Steph as Batgirl and erasing Cass was just more of their troll games so they could pit the fan bases against each and also they could have someone they deem acceptable (i.e white) person under the Batgirl mask to fulfill their nostalgia impression of who Babs Batgirl was.
    Agreed (although I have nostalgia of Babs as Batgirl, just not the kind they seem keen on fulfilling...).

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I like Babs!Batgirl too. She was my introduction to the character but I also love the character growth she went through as Oracle. Babs doesn't work for me when you knock off her IQ and maturity points and is infantilized as Batgirl. I also think Cass is a great character and she was very important in terms of proving that Batgirl can sustain a long term ongoing and as a modern legacy hero.

  13. #118
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I like Babs!Batgirl too. She was my introduction to the character but I also love the character growth she went through as Oracle. Babs doesn't work for me when you knock off her IQ and maturity points and is infantilized as Batgirl. I also think Cass is a great character and she was very important in terms of proving that Batgirl can sustain a long term ongoing and as a modern legacy hero.
    That's why Burnside Batgirl just didn't do it for me and I totally agree about Cass.

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Am I the only who really doesn't like having Cass and Steph being Batgirls at the same time? Unless they're operating out of two different cities (Steph in Bludhaven and Cass in Gotham for example), it really irks me to have a batgirls duo because;

    1) you don't see that nonsense with robin

    2)It implies that Cass and Steph time as batgirl are of equal importance and hold the same weight when it's simply not true. This isn't me trying to reduce Steph batgirl run (i own all the trades and like her time as batgirl although I firmly believe robin!Steph > batgirl!Steph) but it's a disservice to Cass character and minimises the impact and important role Cass played in Batgirl legacy. Not only was Cass run as batgirl a decade long while Steph's only lasted 6 months, but there literally wouldn't be a Steph Batgirl serie (and n52 and rebirth Batgirl Babs) without Cassandra. Cass not only revitalised the Batgirl mantle, but got Batgirl to be popular again all while being one of the only female characters of colour with an ongoing solo at the time.

    Unlike Steph, Cass has only ever been batgirl and she got that title stripped away from her not for character growth but for bs editorial reasons. Steph being Spoiler or Robin doesn't take way from her time as Batgirl or diminish her history the way Cass being orphan does. J like how Duke being the signal doesn't erase his time as Robin or his place and importance in the batfam.

    But most importantly, the Steph and Cass batgirl duo is pretty much just a costume change for Cass because she still doesn't get to truly be anywhere near the pre flashpolint batgirl we know and love. She's sidelined and treated as Steph sidekick where Steph is put front and center with Cass doing some martial art in the background with a few lines of dialogue thrown Cass' way (it happened during league of batgirls one shot, the whole time Cass and Steph were on tec together and in future state during the batgirl story).

    Now that Damian isn't robin anymore Steph should get take the Robin mantle again. Robin was actually a role that Steph took for herself and felt she had finally found her footing (until Bruce started to act like an asshole to her yet again), whereas Batgirl was a mantle thrusted upon her and she always felt like she was an impostor, second to Cass and living in her shadows, while Steph felt truly fulfilled as Robin. The Robin and Batgirl dynamic duo should come back with Cass and Steph.
    Agee with you in every step of the way; Tynion’s treating the Batgirl name so disposably. But ya know what? You Cass and Steph fans got what you wanted: they’re gonna be Batgirl while us Babs as Batgirl fans are never gonna see her out on the field and working in that way we love ever again.

    They’re all special to us for our own reasons, I think we can all agree on that.

  15. #120
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Agee with you in every step of the way; Tynion’s treating the Batgirl name so disposably. But ya know what? You Cass and Steph fans got what you wanted: they’re gonna be Batgirl while us Babs as Batgirl fans are never gonna see her out on the field and working in that way we love ever again.

    They’re all special to us for our own reasons, I think we can all agree on that.
    Babs is going to be out in the field in Nightwing's book.

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