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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    It’s been constant devaluation of her as Batgirl for anything, the most minute thing that if Cass and Steph did? “Aww precious baby owo” -No one- has been allowed to appreciate Barbara for being Batgirl. Not for ten whole years.
    Yeah, that's what happens when you downgrade a character. If they made Dick Grayson Robin again, you'd see a lot of the same complaints

  2. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like it's unfair to act like Cass and Steph weren't being devalued in their own respect. I feel like that's at least been something to rally their fans collectively while Babs fans have had more to argue about.
    Well ya know what? Maybe there just wasn’t anything special about Steph and Cass at all if the DC universe could go on for so long without them. The fact that they have to step into Babs’ shadow and do less than what she did then is proof of that.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well ya know what? Maybe there just wasn’t anything special about Steph and Cass at all if the DC universe could go on for so long without them. The fact that they have to step into Babs’ shadow and do less than what she did then is proof of that.
    They carried the mantle in their own rights so I feel like they do hold some degree of ownership over it even if Babs was the original and set the standard.

    And I don't think there would have been as much effort to bring them back otherwise if people didn't feel they were important in their own right.

  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    They carried the mantle in their own rights so I feel like they do hold some degree of ownership over it even if Babs was the original and set the standard.

    And I don't think there would have been as much effort to bring them back otherwise if people didn't feel they were important in their own right.
    Well so did Babs, but that hasn’t stopped -anyone- from constantly pissing on her efforts. Babs set the standard, Babs did the work to define it: Cass and Steph can do what they do under ANY name.

    So why is it so imperative for them to be Batgirl? Why can’t they hold their own solos with their own unique identities? If Batgirl isn’t so special, why should my they strike out to evolve on their own?

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well so did Babs, but that hasn’t stopped -anyone- from constantly pissing on her efforts. Babs set the standard, Babs did the work to define it: Cass and Steph can do what they do under ANY name.

    So why is it so imperative for them to be Batgirl? Why can’t they hold their own solos with their own unique identities? If Batgirl isn’t so special, why should my they strike out to evolve on their own?
    People always complaint their favorite loss an popular brand identity. So, I don't know why you are surprised than fans of Cassandra or Stephanie complaint.

    Batgirl is a strong brand identity. That's why many fans want their favorite to use that identity. Honestly, Barbara likely need the Batgirl brand less than Cassandra, since she is more popular.

    In my case, I don't like Barbara as Batgirl, because DC usually wants her to be younger and inexperienced in that identity.

    However, I've never wanted Barbara to be Oracle again (I wanted her as Batwoman), because the character could be relegated to a supporting character.

  6. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    People always complaint their favorite loss an popular brand identity. So, I don't know why you are surprised than fans of Cassandra or Stephanie complaint.

    Batgirl is a strong brand identity. That's why many fans want their favorite to use that identity. Honestly, Barbara likely need the Batgirl brand less than Cassandra, since she is more popular.

    In my case, I don't like Barbara as Batgirl, because DC usually wants her to be younger and inexperienced in that identity.

    However, I've never wanted Barbara to be Oracle again (I wanted her as Batwoman), because the character could be relegated to a supporting character.
    Thankyou: I really do appreciate your honesty! And as for why I’m annoyed: it’s because Steph and Cass fans have managed to get exactly what they want at the expense of Barbara and devaluing of her accomplishments or importance alongside them.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well so did Babs, but that hasn’t stopped -anyone- from constantly pissing on her efforts. Babs set the standard, Babs did the work to define it: Cass and Steph can do what they do under ANY name.

    So why is it so imperative for them to be Batgirl? Why can’t they hold their own solos with their own unique identities? If Batgirl isn’t so special, why should my they strike out to evolve on their own?
    Being Batgirl was an important part of their characters and Batgirl became a major identifier for all three of them. Why not use it as a way of banding all three characters together to spotlight them and what they bring to the table?

    Plus, Orphan is terrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Thankyou: I really do appreciate your honesty! And as for why I’m annoyed: it’s because Steph and Cass fans have managed to get exactly what they want at the expense of Barbara and devaluing of her accomplishments or importance alongside them.
    I don't think something good for Cass and Steph should necessarily devalue Babs' accomplishment or importance just as it didn't when they were originally Batgirls.

  8. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Being Batgirl was an important part of their characters and Batgirl became a major identifier for all three of them. Why not use it as a way of banding all three characters together to spotlight them and what they bring to the table?

    Plus, Orphan is terrible.

    I don't think something good for Cass and Steph should necessarily devalue Babs' accomplishment or importance just as it didn't when they were originally Batgirls.
    Because it -isnít- being used to elevate all three characters: itís devaluing Barbaraís time while making out like Cass and Steph are disposable. No-oneís showing any special skills, if anything, Tynionís putting them down by referring to them as a singular group!

    It isnít about Cass and Steph not deserving something good, they do: but it shouldnít come at any of their expense! Hell, I argue Cass has turned out worse for this. Sheís more faceless and non-verbal than ever next to Steph, serving as her stoic-comic foil. She has no agency of her own behind all this.

  9. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Being Batgirl was an important part of their characters and Batgirl became a major identifier for all three of them. Why not use it as a way of banding all three characters together to spotlight them and what they bring to the table?

    Plus, Orphan is terrible.

    I don't think something good for Cass and Steph should necessarily devalue Babs' accomplishment or importance just as it didn't when they were originally Batgirls.
    And it did devalue Babs time as Batgirl, because the fandom made out like she was automatically the lesser and weakest.

  10. #145
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    Getting the Batgirl title back was the worst thing that ever happened to Babs.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Because it -isn’t- being used to elevate all three characters: it’s devaluing Barbara’s time while making out like Cass and Steph are disposable. No-one’s showing any special skills, if anything, Tynion’s putting them down by referring to them as a singular group!

    It isn’t about Cass and Steph not deserving something good, they do: but it shouldn’t come at any of their expense! Hell, I argue Cass has turned out worse for this. She’s more faceless and non-verbal than ever next to Steph, serving as her stoic-comic foil. She has no agency of her own behind all this.
    I am not seeing anyone viewing them as disposable. A team does not make them disposable in my opinion.

    Cass is finally looking like herself again and will probably get character focus in a Batgirls book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    And it did devalue Babs time as Batgirl, because the fandom made out like she was automatically the lesser and weakest.
    I think that had more to do with how she was being depicted as Batgirl at the time and it coming at the expense of erasing the other Batgirls.

  12. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I am not seeing anyone viewing them as disposable. A team does not make them disposable in my opinion.

    Cass is finally looking like herself again and will probably get character focus in a Batgirls book.

    I think that had more to do with how she was being depicted as Batgirl at the time and it coming at the expense of erasing the other Batgirls.
    It does if Babs isnít given the exact same chance to operate as Batgirl as the other two. It does if youíve only got two being pushed with the third and founder hardly (if ever) giving them a chance to show what makes her different and why Batgirl exists in the first place. It does if theyíre being referred to as one entity who do the exact same thing, which isnít true. Devalued.

    Well now Babs is being erased as Batgirl, isnít she? So expect one hell of a push back.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    It does if Babs isn’t given the exact same chance to operate as Batgirl as the other two. It does if you’ve only got two being pushed with the third and founder hardly (if ever) giving them a chance to show what makes her different and why Batgirl exists in the first place. It does if they’re being referred to as one entity who do the exact same thing, which isn’t true. Devalued.
    Cass and Steph aren't in Nightwing, for one, so that's potentially two books Babs will be appearing in as Batgirl.

    We have no indication Batgirls will just be Cass and Steph (and it isn't the only books Babs will be in anyways) and that Babs will have no role in the book. I would be very surprised if that is the case and that it won't show off their uniqueness as individuals and what they all bring to the mantle.

    They're a team on a mission. Not a single entity. No devaluing going on.
    Well now Babs is being erased as Batgirl, isn’t she? So expect one hell of a push back.
    Babs as Batgirl is not being erased.

  14. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Cass and Steph aren't in Nightwing, for one, so that's potentially two books Babs will be appearing in as Batgirl.

    We have no indication Batgirls will just be Cass and Steph (and it isn't the only books Babs will be in anyways) and that Babs will have no role in the book. I would be very surprised if that is the case and that it won't show off their uniqueness as individuals and what they all bring to the mantle.

    They're a team on a mission. Not a single entity. No devaluing going on.

    Babs as Batgirl is not being erased.
    I didn’t say she’d have no role -in- Batgirls, I said she’s going to have no role -as- Batgirl. She’ll be there, because of course it’s Oracle’s -duty- to support the two ‘batgirls’ but god forbid she ever get to show off what we loved about her as Batgirl in the first place. God forbid she get a chance to do what the other two do, because they’re all doing the same thing at the end of the day so what’s the big deal.

    Babs as Batgirl -is- being erased and devalued through Tynion’s approach: he wants a streamlined Bat title. He wants Oracle. He’s going to go out of his way to reverse things to the 2000’s era by systematically having Babs compared and put down to Steph and Cass, even though she brings just as much to the table (if not more) than them.

    This wouldn’t be an issue if they all definitely got to be Batgirl at the same time, but they won’t and Tynion’s interviews and dialogue make that abundantly clear.

    The indications we have:

    “I’ll be more judicious about when I use it” —as in, never
    “Am I more use as Batgirl or Oracle?” —Tynion basically not seeing the value in Batgirl
    “It’s not like this city will go wanting for a Batgirl” —As in, Steph and Cass are there so Tynion has no incentive for fans to want Babs’ Batgirl. More devaluation by treating them as non-unique personas.
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 03-04-2021 at 05:35 PM.

  15. #150
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    By the way, with Cassandra's appearance in Infinite Frontier wearing her old Batgirl outfit,

    any idea of what name they're referring to her as?
    Stephanie is wearing her Spoiler outfit, so even if she's in a group referred to as "Batgirls", they can still easily jut refer to Steph herself as "Spoiler".

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