Cassandra Cain: Orphan, Black Bat, Batgirl Appreciation 2021

[Frontier]

Not that odd, when you consider that Loeb doesn't like her

I did not know that...but considering his apparent view of Asian characters, not altogether unsurprising.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I did not know that...but considering his apparent view of Asian characters, not altogether unsurprising.

I know of Loeb's racism, but I think most in the old DC regime just couldn't get the f**k over Babs as Batgirl

[Frontier]

I know of Loeb's racism, but I think most in the old DC regime just couldn't get the f**k over Babs as Batgirl

I think it probably depends on who we're talking about.

[Restingvoice]

I know of Loeb's racism

Wait I need receipt on this

[Blight]

So to answer the question. It all boils down to this from Daredevil actor Peter Shinkoda (he played Nobu) stated Loeb made racist comments while on set. You look at the way he treated say Lady Shiva in his various stories? Then the lack of Cass as well. The way he had Ultimate Wasp infamously killed off. Well, it kind puts some pieces of a puzzle together.

[Digifiend]

Didio definitely derailed her more than anyone else.

Though I think she had a decent turn in *some* Bat books stuff - particularly with Robin - given the time period, since it was that weird transition period between Hush and Morrison, where a lot of BatBooks were going through a bad stretch.

It’s just that eventually, her book got cancelled and Evil!Cass git ordered because Dan Didio was afraid that new readers would be confused if offered a selection between a completely masked Asian Batgirl with a martial arts theme and a tall, red headed lesbian Batwoman.

*That’s* the moment that truly derailed her, and even after John’s and others tried to fix her, you can tell Didio seemed to think she was a failure because she didn’t work in the whip-lash inducing status quo change he ordered for her.

There's more to it than that. The original plan for the Batwoman costume is that Barbara would wear it - she was originally supposed to return to the cowl five years before she did. Of course, that plan would've screwed Cass over too.

[godisawesome]

There's more to it than that. The original plan for the Batwoman costume is that Barbara would wear it - she was originally supposed to return to the cowl five years before she did. Of course, that plan would've screwed Cass over too.

I think I’d heard that before, but I always have to check on it - I was always well aware they wanted to put her back in the suit before Steph got it, but it’s hard for me to extricate Kate from that suit.

It still does stink to high heaven and always feel like an obsession with the idea that a familiar status quo must be created n9 matter how little the market or the creatives seem to demand it...

...And I feel it’s safe to say Cass would likely have gotten the “Evil Dragon Lady” treatment regardless of whether the Batwoman was Babs or Kate just because Didio has a weirdly paranoid “scorched earth” policy towards characters he sees as redundant - the guy seemed almost constitutionally incapable of accepting an expanding universe and clearly regarded even surviving civilian IDs for “redundant” characters as a threat.

[The Cool Thatguy]

There's more to it than that. The original plan for the Batwoman costume is that Barbara would wear it - she was originally supposed to return to the cowl five years before she did. Of course, that plan would've screwed Cass over too.

Not surprised that 'screw Cass' is a consistent step.

[frostedemma]

So to answer the question. It all boils down to this from Daredevil actor Peter Shinkoda (he played Nobu) stated Loeb made racist comments while on set. You look at the way he treated say Lady Shiva in his various stories? Then the lack of Cass as well. The way he had Ultimate Wasp infamously killed off. Well, it kind puts some pieces of a puzzle together.

Not surprising at all given how asians characters were treated on daredevil, especially during season 1-2.

[frostedemma]

I don't know if Cass got that much of a push. She rarely appeared in any of the other Bat books, and she didn't have much more than a guest spot on those other books. She had excellent writing overall, and frankly I think Dan D is the one who torpedoed Cass, not Grant.

I didn't say that Grant was the reason for Cass downfall, but that the creation of Damian gave Didio&co a golden opportunity to sideline Cass. Also just because Cass wasn't pushed with Harley levels of overexposure, doesn't mean Cass wasn't pushed at all.

What do you think about her FS costume

The costume is okay, a vast improvement over the rebirth version it's based on. I'm just not a big fan of the princess jasmine pants.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I didn't say that Grant was the reason for Cass downfall, but that the creation of Damian gave Didio&co a golden opportunity to sideline Cass. Also just because Cass wasn't pushed with Harley levels of overexposure, doesn't mean Cass wasn't pushed at all.

They never developed her relationship with Tim or Dick in their books, her maternal relationship with Babs wasn't acknowledged outside of Cass' book and I'm pretty sure that Brubaker was the only one to use Cass in his Batman book. She never joined another ongoing series/team book, and was never the star of the spin off books like Gotham Knights or Batman and Superman.

And this was in the era before there are a million sidekicks, and characters walked in and out of other's books pretty casually.

[Frontier]

Wasn't Gail Simone told she couldn't use Cass the few times she wanted to bring her in? I seem to remember that being a thing.

[godisawesome]

They never developed her relationship with Tim or Dick in their books, her maternal relationship with Babs wasn't acknowledged outside of Cass' book and I'm pretty sure that Brubaker was the only one to use Cass in his Batman book. She never joined another ongoing series/team book, and was never the star of the spin off books like Gotham Knights or Batman and Superman.

And this was in the era before there are a million sidekicks, and characters walked in and out of other's books pretty casually.

I think she was Kasumi in Justice League Elite... but that was a short-lived book, and they made a point of hiding she was that character behind a mask for some time. She also wound up in Outsiders during Dixon’s brief run on that book during the period between her Evil Cass phase ending and her later limbo during RIP.

Neither was really high profile, though - Dixon actually forgot he’d written her when someone praised him for handling her better than others during that time period (where let’s face it, giving her back to Beechen right before sending her back to limbo can feel spiteful on DC’s part.)

Wasn't Gail Simone told she couldn't use Cass the few times she wanted to bring her in? I seem to remember that being a thing.

I know she proposed an idea that was nixed, and it’s likely she was forbidden from using her when everyone else is... but I don't know if that was just a lining up of the times she had ideas and Cass’s misfortune or if there were other times she wanted to use her and was discouraged.

[Will Evans]

She was used briefly in Young Justice, as a sort of backup team.

It was Beast Boy, Flamebird, Lagoon Boy, CM3 (cap marvel jr) and Cass.

[Aahz]

I don't know if Cass got that much of a push. She rarely appeared in any of the other Bat books, and she didn't have much more than a guest spot on those other books. She had excellent writing overall, and frankly I think Dan D is the one who torpedoed Cass, not Grant.

I think that Grant being more interested in doing his thing and bringing back Silver Age stuff than doing anything with stuff from more recent comics, also didn't help that much.