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  1. #361
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    Prefer Bronze Tiger for Vixen. In terms of building a franchise, it's always better to have complete editorial control over all major supporting characters and lore elements since comics are a volatile creative space where sudden changes in one corner can reverberate across several titles. That's the primary reason BP and Storm can never work out long term and why Mari and John would face similar issues. As of right now Vixen is operating in a globetrotting, Mission Impossible style space with a heavy dosage of the glitz and glamor befitting he status as a supermodel hero. John is spearheading the cosmic corner of the DCU in deep space. They exist under a completely different set of writers with different priorities as heroes.

    And if they work in such different spheres you're limiting their ability to appear together in a meaningful capacity. It's the same problem you saw with Black Panther when he was filling in for Daredevil and you had a so-so appearance from Storm, who he was still married to. If they're gonna be dating, the expectation is gonna be it's not treated as some arbitrary add-on we see every few arcs in their solo titles. So the best way to get a Vixen/GL romance imo is to have them on the same team or to have them share a title where the main idea is they appear together every issue. Otherwise, they should just be casual friends who hookup between relationships every now and then.

    Bronze Tiger offers a smaller profile character that can be absorbed into the Vixen franchise as well as someone that fits into her world of espionage and mysticism much better than John could ever hope to. He's worked with various intelligence organizations and has a similar level of global experience. He offers the same gruff, stoic personality of John that bounces off well with Mari's high energy. It wouldn't take much to reestablish their shared past in the Suicide Squad given how wonky DC continuity is nowadays either. I feel like overall he's a stronger character in terms of building a Vixen franchise with him as her Catwoman. A power couple with a cosmic character poses too many issues.

  2. #362
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Prefer Bronze Tiger for Vixen. In terms of building a franchise, it's always better to have complete editorial control over all major supporting characters and lore elements since comics are a volatile creative space where sudden changes in one corner can reverberate across several titles. That's the primary reason BP and Storm can never work out long term and why Mari and John would face similar issues. As of right now Vixen is operating in a globetrotting, Mission Impossible style space with a heavy dosage of the glitz and glamor befitting he status as a supermodel hero. John is spearheading the cosmic corner of the DCU in deep space. They exist under a completely different set of writers with different priorities as heroes.
    I agree with everything except the first sentence -o he's his own IP, too, and I really do prefer a tailor-made love interest. And I'm still pulling for more civilian love interests, as I find too many heroes too disconnected from the "real" world. And it seems like a double-standard exists with female heroes, who are even more rarely paired with civilian than male heroes (though admittedly for the men, it mostly happens with legacy heroes - solo heroes are far more insular and separate from the civilian world than they used to be), like they can't be with a man who isn't superpowerful or whatnot.

    Bronze Tiger offers a smaller profile character that can be absorbed into the Vixen franchise as well as someone that fits into her world of espionage and mysticism much better than John could ever hope to.
    I'm just rarely a fan of character being "absorbed" into another's fandom. I don't care about Bronze Tiger (never read him), but I would care if a solo hero I like was suddenly plopped into another character's world, now existing to serve that character's needs, with their own journey and character development moved to second place. I think one character should never be diminished to prop up another. And I think making a hero into another's supporiting character is diminishing them (unless they haven't been used at all for a good long while, and even then it can by iffy)
    Last edited by Tzigone; 05-11-2021 at 06:11 PM.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree with everything except the first sentence -o he's his own IP, too, and I really do prefer a tailor-made love interest. And I'm still pulling for more civilian love interests, as I find too many heroes too disconnected from the "real" world. And it seems like a double-standard exists with female heroes, who are even more rarely paired with civilian than male heroes (though admittedly for the men, it mostly happens with legacy heroes - solo heroes are far more insular and separate from the civilian world than they used to be), like they can't be with a man who isn't superpowerful or whatnot.

    I'm just rarely a fan of character being "absorbed" into another's fandom. I don't care about Bronze Tiger (never read him), but I would care if a solo hero I like was suddenly plopped into another character's world, now existing to serve that character's needs, with their own journey and character development moved to second place. I think one character should never be diminished to prop up another. And I think making a hero into another's supporiting character is diminishing them (unless they haven't been used at all for a good long while, and even then it can by iffy)
    I wouldnít call Bronze Tiger his own IP in any real sense of the word. As of right now, heís more or less in exile from his original franchise the Suicide Squad and for roughly a decade heís been relegated to meager guest appearances in martial arts and espionage titles. As a fan of the character, seeing him turned into one of Vixenís primary supporting characters would be a dream come true because at the end of the day Ben isnít a solo lead and he has a a history of having a strong dynamic with her. Thatís not to say that he HAS to be with her or that Vixen canít have a regular guy as her love interest, but if weíre looking at superheroes Bronze Tiger makes much more sense narratively and editorially than Green Lantern does.

    That said, I donít think it would be a diminishment of Bronze Tiger to be a consistent presence in a Vixen solo, it would almost certainly amount to more development and feats than heís gotten for the last few years. Just because heís not headlining the book doesnít mean itís a downgrade or that heís all of a sudden not important to the wider landscape of DC. Quite the opposite. Likewise I donít think itís a knock against Vixen if she doesnít end up with a regular guy.

    Itís perfectly valid to be irked by the death of the civilian supporting cast in Big 2 comics, but Vixen is a supermodel and public hero, it can be argued that itíd be preferable for her lover to be able to handle himself. Plus with the highly fantastical life that she lives being a billionaire supermodel on top of one of the worldís most powerful heroes, sheís already really disconnected from regular life. Iíd just lean into it rather than force some humanity on the character with a love interest clearly not built for the lifestyle that she lives. There are other ways to inject civilian supporting characters into a Vixen solo and have that relatable heart at the core of the franchise. Doesnít mean it canít work or isnít worth a shot (My ideal BP love interest is a damn singer/humanitarian lol) but I donít think a civilian love interest is absolutely needed for Vixen.

  4. #364
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    hell yeah! there's hella room up here, cop a squat bro
    My man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree with everything except the first sentence -o he's his own IP, too, and I really do prefer a tailor-made love interest. And I'm still pulling for more civilian love interests, as I find too many heroes too disconnected from the "real" world. And it seems like a double-standard exists with female heroes, who are even more rarely paired with civilian than male heroes (though admittedly for the men, it mostly happens with legacy heroes - solo heroes are far more insular and separate from the civilian world than they used to be), like they can't be with a man who isn't superpowerful or whatnot.

    I'm just rarely a fan of character being "absorbed" into another's fandom. I don't care about Bronze Tiger (never read him), but I would care if a solo hero I like was suddenly plopped into another character's world, now existing to serve that character's needs, with their own journey and character development moved to second place. I think one character should never be diminished to prop up another. And I think making a hero into another's supporiting character is diminishing them (unless they haven't been used at all for a good long while, and even then it can by iffy)
    I want more civilian supporting casts too, but with some finesse they could be another Green Arrow/Black Canary, though hopefully without how sometimes Dinah just gets absorbed by the GA franchise. It can work, but I admit it's because I don't think Bronze Tiger will ever get his own series so a co-feature in Vixen's (who I see as a possibility) seems like a good spot for him to appear regularly.

  5. #365
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Even better Green Lantern-Vixen-Bronze Tiger love triangle. Could be interesting

    A girl gotta keep her options open.
    Jazmine Sullivan - Pick Up Your Feelings - https://youtu.be/6jOA3h4zSTc

  6. #366
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I wouldn't really hold up GA/BC as the standard bearer of anything.

    Marie has way too much class and self respect and isn't the type to run back to a dude who cheated on her twice and then marry him.

  7. #367
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I wouldn't really hold up GA/BC as the standard bearer of anything.

    Marie has way too much class and self respect and isn't the type to run back to a dude who cheated on her twice and then marry him.
    It's one of DC's more successful partnering of IPs. Dinah still gets to be on the Justice League, BoP and sometimes her own mini without Ollie, who mostly just sticks to his own book and sometimes joining her on the Justice League.

    Bronze Tiger and Vixen could both benefit from that treatment. Is GA/BC the best model? No, but it's better than most at DC. We're only now getting a Blue and Gold book.

    As for Oliver's character, well, there's a reason I love that character but only half the time. I just don't agree with writers who make him a cheater but that's another thread.

  8. #368
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    So I'm sitting here thinking...other than Lois and Clark what other couple can be considered successful.
    Jazmine Sullivan - Pick Up Your Feelings - https://youtu.be/6jOA3h4zSTc

  9. #369
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    So I'm sitting here thinking...other than Lois and Clark what other couple can be considered successful.
    Now? Arthur and Mera. Before Johns DC regularly shit on her but they're committed to one another again.

  10. #370
    Incredible Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Definitely Arthur/Mera, Dinah/Oliver, Bruce/Selena to a degree.

    But I loved Vixens relationship with John in JLU even if she was more of a rebound. It's definitely something that'd be fun to see adapted to the comics or another medium.

    I wouldn't mind Bronze Tiger either if they want the bad boy route.

  11. #371
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    Definitely Arthur/Mera, Dinah/Oliver, Bruce/Selena to a degree.

    But I loved Vixens relationship with John in JLU even if she was more of a rebound. It's definitely something that'd be fun to see adapted to the comics or another medium.

    I wouldn't mind Bronze Tiger either if they want the bad boy route.
    Tom King really soured a lot of readers on that last one. I personally would love for it to die and Bruce remain entirely single at that point.

  12. #372
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Now? Arthur and Mera. Before Johns DC regularly shit on her but they're committed to one another again.
    Forgot about Arthur and Mera. They seem to have some staying power. It sad I can't really think of that many couples
    Jazmine Sullivan - Pick Up Your Feelings - https://youtu.be/6jOA3h4zSTc

  13. #373
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    I'm in the Bronze Tiger/Vixen camp. They bounce off each other so well I'm still disappointed Ostrander broke them up! I love these two!

    As for John I'm still stuck on him being with Katma so other relationship options are nonexistent to me

    I wouldn't mind if Mari was dating someone in her field or status. Be it an actor, professional sports player, rapper/singer, professional business owner, etc. It would be a nice change of pace.

  14. #374
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    Forgot about Arthur and Mera. They seem to have some staying power. It sad I can't really think of that many couples
    I will never forget about Arthur and Mera. I really grew to love them from Silver Age reprints (which are very of their time) and the way she got dragged through the mud in later volumes (PAD's run in particular) kept me from enjoying Aquaman.

    She's a much different character today but she's in a good place and still feels like Mera.

    I can only hope someone comes along and boosts Mari the way Johns was able to for Mera.

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    I'm in the Bronze Tiger/Vixen camp. They bounce off each other so well I'm still disappointed Ostrander broke them up! I love these two!

    As for John I'm still stuck on him being with Katma so other relationship options are nonexistent to me

    I wouldn't mind if Mari was dating someone in her field or status. Be it an actor, professional sports player, rapper/singer, professional business owner, etc. It would be a nice change of pace.
    I prefer John with Katma too.

  15. #375
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    It's one of DC's more successful partnering of IPs. Dinah still gets to be on the Justice League, BoP and sometimes her own mini without Ollie, who mostly just sticks to his own book and sometimes joining her on the Justice League.

    Bronze Tiger and Vixen could both benefit from that treatment. Is GA/BC the best model? No, but it's better than most at DC. We're only now getting a Blue and Gold book.

    As for Oliver's character, well, there's a reason I love that character but only half the time. I just don't agree with writers who make him a cheater but that's another thread.

    When Ollie came back from the dead, she was taken off the JSA to be in his book. When they got married, she got taken off the BOP book. In her books and BOP she gets to kick ass, be a top tier martial artist and in JSA focused stories, she is tied to the greater history of the DCU. In GA books, her competency nose dives based on plot, she get hurt to drive GA's narrative and her own personal history is minimized and often outright ignored in favor of Ollie, her plots are bogged down by relationship drama (be it cheating or Ollie lying to her or storming off because she thinks he is being patronizing). Occasionally you get something great like JLU's Double Date or the Wildcat episode but for the most part, the relationship is a net negative for Dinah in my view. It's the same bs as Zatanna/Constantine only with more nostalgic tint. At least most of Vixen's romances have been better written.

    Though to be clear, I don't hate Ollie. I like them both, just not together. I like Ollie as this flawed character trying to atone for his past but I think Dinah should be allowed to progress as a character as well. I wouldn't hold them up as the best relationship in the DCU, that goes to Clark/Lois, Wally/Linda, Arthur/Mera, Katar/Shayera, Diana/Steve (Rebirth) and Bruce/Selina (pre-Rebirth).

    Anyway, I to try and steer this discussion back to Vixen, here are some moments between Vixen and Bronze Tiger during McDuffie's JLA run:







    Sources:
    http://suicidesquadtaskforcex.blogsp...ing-vixen.html

    http://thebronzetiger.blogspot.com/2012/11/vixen.html

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