Vixen Appreciation 2021

[Redjack]

but the basis of his powers were his superhuman leg strength, his ability to run and a jump in a way that's reminiscent of his namesake. sure there are superficial similar but if you are portraying him as speedster in the same way as Flash you would be already messing up. if he was a speedster all that would mean is he can now easily crossover with the Flash. if someone had already established he were a speedster, I still wouldn't see the value of going out of the way to retcon that away rather than just further define his unique take on what it means for him to be a speedster, especially since even among speedsters there are some characters that can do things others can't and vice versa. Does Impala need to be a speedster? not really, and since he's not they can build him however way they want but that doesn't make the idea of the speedforce or other speedster any more or less good or unique. isolated doesn't mean "unique" and erasing connective elements of a character that exists in a shared universe is antithetical to the point of a shared universe.

Well, that's partly why I made up my own Impala and didn't use any of the previous ones.

Also, yeah, there are too many speed force speedsters. there should be one. Only one. All the other speedsters should go fast some other way.

Also, the powers aren't "elements of the character." they're just the shiny wrapping paper the character comes in.

[lemonpeace]

Well, that's partly why I made up my own Impala and didn't use any of the previous ones.

Also, yeah, there are too many speed force speedsters. there should be one. Only one. All the other speedsters should go fast some other way.

Also, the powers aren't "elements of the character." they're just the shiny wrapping paper the character comes in.

actually hold up, nah. if the powers are effectively a non-factor, then why would you go out of your way to "aggressive modify" them if what you are changing never practically affected what her power does? if the powers or the basis of their power are just "shiny wrapping paper" then it doesn't matter if it's from the red or from the totem or from being a demigod or from getting bit by a radioactive african flying snake-squirrel.

in superhero fiction the origin, the personality, the powers, the suit/aesthetic are all elements the define who the character is and all inform how they operate. why do you think electric Superman doesn't work? or Super-power Damian Wayne didn't stick? or White Lanterm Kyle Rayner?

yo believe what you want my guy, but with all due respect, you ain't exactly selling me on wanting to read your stories if I'm being honest.

[John Venus]

Speed Force is confined to the Flash franchise and Flash related characters. Likewise, the Emotional Spectrum is confined to the GL franchise and only connects related characters. The problem with taking disparate characters like Animal Man, Vixen and Beast Boy who have similar powers and saying they're all from the same source is that now they're all beholden to one another. Say, the next writer on Animal Man decides to rewrite the rules on how the Meat Dimension works, now whoever is writing Vixen or Beast Boy has to figure out how that's going to affect them, ignore it and you have an inconsistency resulting in more 'DC doesn't care blah blah blah' complains. The only way to avoid that is to have all 3 of them be written by the same person till the end of time.

No, it's better to make Vixen more distinctive. Could there be *some* shared elements between these heroes with similar powers? Sure. But I don't want it to be like the Speed Force or Emotional Spectrum. There is more than one way to world build. Ultimately, I'm reading Vixen stories for Vixen and I want to know what stories can only be told with Vixen. Likewise, I want to know what kind of stories can only be told with Animal Man and what kind of stories can only be told with Beast Boy. Paint them by the same brush stroke and you end with the same problems as legacy heroes and villains where characters end up being used interchangeably.

[LordAllMIghty]

They can all use the Red but the difference is in the way they manipulate the powers

Animal Man and Vixen - Have full range of powers and can mix, match and enhance abilities.
Beast Boy - A full on shapeshifter
B'wanna Beaat - Use his power to manipulate lifeforms to combine animals
Maxine - Can actually create life.
Tristess - Could mind jump into animals (at least that's all I can remember her doing)
Tabu - Wear masks of slain animals to gain their abilities...kind of like Impala.

[lemonpeace]

Speed Force is confined to the Flash franchise and Flash related characters. Likewise, the Emotional Spectrum is confined to the GL franchise and only connects related characters. The problem with taking disparate characters like Animal Man, Vixen and Beast Boy who have similar powers and saying they're all from the same source is that now they're all beholden to one another. Say, the next writer on Animal Man decides to rewrite the rules on how the Meat Dimension works, now whoever is writing Vixen or Beast Boy has to figure out how that's going to affect them, ignore it and you have an inconsistency resulting in more 'DC doesn't care blah blah blah' complains. The only way to avoid that is to have all 3 of them be written by the same person till the end of time.

No, it's better to make Vixen more distinctive. Could there be *some* shared elements between these heroes with similar powers? Sure. But I don't want it to be like the Speed Force or Emotional Spectrum. There is more than one way to world build. Ultimately, I'm reading Vixen stories for Vixen and I want to know what stories can only be told with Vixen. Likewise, I want to know what kind of stories can only be told with Animal Man and what kind of stories can only be told with Beast Boy. Paint them by the same brush stroke and you end with the same problems as legacy heroes and villains where characters end up being used interchangeably.

but again The Red is not owned by Animal Man. y'all are working backwards, if the Red is shared by Beast Boy and Freedom Beast and Animal Man and Vixen, then any number of them could explore it as equally as each other; just like all the Lanterns can explore and discover things about the Emotional Spectrum. even putting that aside, when has that ever actually happened? the Red has been around for years now, and there has never been an instance where whatever happened over with Animal Man or Beast Boy has affected Vixen's powers unless she is in the story with them. just saying "it's gonna make them all the same" doesn't change the fact that it hasn't done that. they aren't painted by the same brush, they all still do different things, they just share a source. also, now that the red has been part of her character for years, who's to say there won't be a writer who just reintroduces it the same way y'all are proposing to retcon it? expanding what's there is a matter of security. characters of color historically NEVER benefit from this kind of revisionism. every time i've read a writer coming along wanting to write like they are the first person to write this character, and are gonna fix things and undo things, it only makes the characters and the stories weaker because it's untethered from what came before, which makes it easy to ignore (bars).

taking the red away won't add anything to the character. in fact, it literally invalidates portions of the few stories with her in it. I'm not some Red apologist I swear, it's a nifty little piece of continuity but i'm not jizzing myself over it, I just truly don't understand this leap people are making that just because her magic is tangentially defined, that suddenly it's some great detriment her character. especially when the only real detriment plaguing Vixen is the lack of a platform to further define herself. Truth & Justice works all the same whether you explain it solely by nebulous demigod magic or by the red, which shows to me the red isn't really the problem. so to go back and invalidate another creator's idea (for this character they are all sharing/renting) just feels wholly unnecessary. to me, it shows a lack of imagination in the writer and an inability to play by the rules of the game they've signed up for. so, in my mind, if that's how DC wants to move then they better do it with a story that really blows me away. otherwise, it's just a hack maneuver to appease the creative ego, that not only didn't really need to happen but also doesn't add to the character because mediocre stories tend to get retconned by omission anyway.

[lemonpeace]

They can all use the Red but the difference is in the way they manipulate the powers

Animal Man and Vixen - animal
Beast Boy - animal
B'wanna Beast - animal
Maxine - animal
Tristess - animal
Tabu - animal

while I'm sure those are all distinct abilities that are both conceptually and aesthetically diverse, because they all are connected by the red they all look like nebulous animal powers to me

[Redjack]

actually hold up, nah. if the powers are effectively a non-factor, then why would you go out of your way to "aggressive modify" them if what you are changing never practically affected what her power does? if the powers or the basis of their power are just "shiny wrapping paper" then it doesn't matter if it's from the red or from the totem or from being a demigod or from getting bit by a radioactive african flying snake-squirrel.

in superhero fiction the origin, the personality, the powers, the suit/aesthetic are all elements the define who the character is and all inform how they operate. why do you think electric Superman doesn't work? or Super-power Damian Wayne didn't stick? or White Lanterm Kyle Rayner?

yo believe what you want my guy, but with all due respect, you ain't exactly selling me on wanting to read your stories if I'm being honest.

you're confusing "who" with "what." Character is who. Powers are what.

I'm not "selling" anything. I'm not a salesman. I'm just talking.

Character is WHO the person is, powers or no.

Powers describe WHAT that person can do.

The origin does not define the character unless the origin changes their personality. Steve Rogers has the same personality prior to becoming Captain America as he does after. Clark Kent is precisely the same person, in or out of costume. and so on.

[lemonpeace]

you're confusing "who" with "what." Character is who. Powers are what.

I'm not "selling" anything. I'm not a salesman. I'm just talking.

Character is WHO the person is, powers or no.

Powers describe WHAT that person can do.

The origin does not define the character unless the origin changes their personality. Steve Rogers has the same personality prior to becoming Captain America as he does after. Clark Kent is precisely the same person, in or out of costume. and so on.

i'm not confusing them, I'm recognizing how one informs the other.

who you are is both informed and defined by what you do. you are identified by your name because you respond to that name. you are identified as a police officer by doing the training, wearing the uniform, and doing the duty. you are identified as a superhero by a combination of tropes that include costume, the skillset, the origin, etc. so, when dealing with a superhero character, in superhero fiction, you start with identifying them by the aforementioned elements that go into identifying a superhero character.

but aii man, you got it.

like I said, believe what you wanna believe. it ain't my job to debate semantics or writing theory or whatever. but I do gotta call cap on that salesman's line, considering your are consistently promoting your work on here... but to be fair, maybe I could've worded that better for nuance. so I'll rephrase:

"yo believe what you want, I just don't agree with the take you're arguing here. i guess it's a matter of personal taste but, considering you are a writer who promos on here, I felt like voicing that it's not a creative direction that's for me, as feedback from a person who reads DC comics."

and now, my part in this conversation is done

[Redjack]

i'm not confusing them, I'm recognizing how one informs the other.

who you are is both informed and defined by what you do. you are identified by your name because you respond to that name. you are identified as a police officer by doing the training, wearing the uniform, and doing the duty. you are identified as a superhero by a combination of tropes that include costume, the skillset, the origin, etc.

none of that is your character. all of those are outside you, how others see you. that isn't you and therefore not your character.

this isn't a matter of opinion but part of how one writes believable characters in fiction. It's not something i just made up.

like I said, believe what you wanna believe. it ain't my job to debate semantics or writing theory or whatever. but I do gotta call cap on that salesman's line, considering your are consistently promoting your work on here... but to be fair, maybe I could've worded that better for nuance. so I'll rephrase:

nope. i'm not selling. i just like comics a lot. I've been on these boards for more than a decade. LONG before I ever wrote any comics. Also, in this case, there's nothing to sell. There's no Vixen book as yet. So, we're just talking. But, even if there were, I'm still not a salesman. That's another department.

"yo believe what you want, I just don't agree with the take you're arguing here. i guess it's a matter of personal taste but, considering you are a writer who promos on here, I felt like voicing that it's not a creative direction that's for me, as feedback from a person who reads DC comics."

you haven't seen it so you can't have a valid opinion about it. my job, if the book ever happened, would be to tell that awesome story and to make Mari unique unto herself. Every character deserves uniqueness. And every reader too.

[9th.]

I think Vixen connection with the "Red", was to connect her to Animal Man. Her connection to the Morphogenetic field/Red was pretty much cemented in Animal Man 48-50.

I guess you could call it a retcon but was an easy way to explain where she and Animal Man get their powers.

I actually liked "The Red" concept, it gave them their own speed force without it being too wacky.

[Avi]

Could someone tell me how important the Red has been for Vixen? Or rather, in which stories it's been used?
I've only read a limited amount of Mari's stories and all of them predominantly highlighted the totem or Anansi. At least I don't remember the Red's involvement. The only reason I know she is connected to it is because of the wiki and this forum.

[LordAllMIghty]

Could someone tell me how important the Red has been for Vixen? Or rather, in which stories it's been used?
I've only read a limited amount of Mari's stories and all of them predominantly highlighted the totem or Anansi. At least I don't remember the Red's involvement. The only reason I know she is connected to it is because of the wiki and this forum.

Due to Anansi powers the Life-Web/Morphogenetic Field/Red runs through the totem. It's been brought up multiple times throughout Vixen's history. First time I can remember was in Animal Man 48-50, then it was brought up during her time in Sucide Squad. It was a major factor during the time her powers were modified in Meltzer and McDuffie's JLA run. It plays a minor role in Vixen's limited series and it's brought up multiple times in New52 JLoA.

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[Avi]

Due to Anansi powers the Life-Web/Morphogenetic Field/Red runs through the totem. It's been brought up multiple times throughout Vixen's history. First time I can remember was in Animal Man 48-50, then it was brought up during her time in Sucide Squad. It was a major factor during the time her powers were modified in Meltzer and McDuffie's JLA run. It plays a minor role in Vixen's limited series and it's brought up multiple times in New52 JLoA.

RCO004_1583544874.jpg

Thank you. I'll check those stories out. That it only plays a minor role in the limited series explains why I don't remember its involvement.

[LordAllMIghty]

Thank you. I'll check those stories out. That it only plays a minor role in the limited series explains why I don't remember its involvement.

Yeah, it was brought up when Anansi helped her understand that her powers where not dependent on the totem.
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[Incognito]

If Amaya Jiwe was ever inserted into the comics, how would you all tie her into Vixen's mythos?