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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Sorry for the delay, long weekend
    1) I'll look to see where I read it. Or maybe I inferred it based on the mass targeting of mutants that happened prior to the branch to all super heroes. But I would say that Hellfire Club did not oversee to execute the massacre at Xavier's. No writer, Claremont included, brings this up again in any retelling of what happened. In every mention after this comic, and before, it has been the government executing a raid with intents to kills or imprison the mutants residing there. Even if they did use their clout, which is speculation, they wouldn't have wanted all the mutants there killed as they would seek to bring them in and control them as shown by having their own academy by that point.

    2) It's possible that was the plan Claremont may have had, but we don't know sadly. Lots of his nuggets of future seeds either got ignore by future writers (or himself) or retconned. Given the memories shown by Rachel's rebirth in Excalibur 64 (mental influences removed)and the Phoenix Force's retelling of their meeting in Excalibur 52, we know she wasn't Phoenix before their meeting post-the DoFP story. So this encounter with the SK is false.

    3) That's something I'm always weary about as one would expect that a multiversal entity would have better luck taking over the world if they were experiencing everything lol. The 616 version has skipped around different dimensions/universes and always comes back here. So I guess it would make sense from a perspective of it remembering Rachel and the Phoenix, but it's a thread that was never picked up on again, even with this reality's SK trying to subvert Rachel in New Excalibur he doesn't reference True Friends of meeting Rachel and Kitty or Betsy (weird, but another instance of Claremont not using his own previous stories).

    4) As I think more about it, given that Ahab hadn't been created yet it would make sense he's not referenced (but will be shortly in the Days of Future Present) but it's something that has never been referenced outside of that one Excalibur issue. Ahab has always been noted as the one who broke Rachel's mind. Not the Shadow King. Additionally if the SK had done some level of programming in 811 then it would have been picked up on in True Friends and subsequently by the Phoenix Force when it rebuilt Rachel's mind from it's shattered remains to it's natural state. Never mentioned. It would be an interesting wrinkle but the credit is all Ahab's at this point.

    5) I think that might be true as a means of Claremont editing his own tale for future storytelling. Moira still could have died, but Xavier didn't.

    6) Oy what a headache. A different Bishop from a different timeline (which mimics his) where he goes to 811 instead of his own timeline's past? It's a lot of hoops for Claremont to jump through to just to use Lucas but sure. While I haven't read it yet, the story feels like it doesn't add value to the existing tale and also sounds like it removes Rachel's own agency of breaking herself out of the hound state and instead is sided by the "X-Men". I would love to be proved wrong.

    When I looked up the issue summary from UncannyXMen.net this tidbit from the editors makes sense to our conversation and to why it's not referenced:

    "The backstory of Rachel and the Shadow King (including such elements as to why he knew her even before her parents’ birth) was supposed to be told in Excalibur Special editions #3 &4, which were, however, never published. The story was eventually published (though probably in somewhat altered form) in the limited series X-Men: True Friends, in which Rachel and Kitty inadvertently travel back in time to the 30ies and become embroiled in a plot by the Nazis and the Shadow King. What makes this somewhat problematic is that it happened in Earth’s 616 timeline and Rachel (and her world’s Farouk logically) is from a different timeline. Perhaps this, as well as several other inconsistencies – such as teenage Rachel already displaying Phoenix powers – can be explained away by the messed-up memories she has ever since escaping from Mojoworld (as explained In Excalibur: The Sword is Drawn)."
    Yeah, I think the Shadow King thing works as Farouk referencing True Friends if one assumes the events of Days of Future Past being the divergence point and with the timeline altering slightly, but still diverging back into what we know (hence Ahab being an evil time cop). Thus, Rachel's actions upon changing the past change her own past in a horribly complicated feedback loops. However, I agree that its tenuous at best even with it considered how an evil Cable exists in this timeline since he time traveled back before the divergence.

    I would think it'd be neat to see some old discussions on Xavier dying in Days of Future Past but later being alive to die in the mansion, I wonder how people used to talk about that with Claremont (unfortunately the Comix-Fans forums are gone and all of that is now lost).

    If one takes the Earth-811 as an alternate universe that diverged with Phoenix not dying on the Moon, which is something I've never liked (since the divergence point would have to be considered as some time travel incident outside of the X-Men books) and have chalked up to Rachel's false memories, then it's best to see Farouk as just a false memory.

    I think the big thing is, that issue of Excalibur was just the biggest piece of foreshadowing Claremont was doing for Uncanny X-Men 300 wherein he'd reveal that Farouk was the author of all of the X-Men's pain before being killed by Magneto. With Claremont leaving twenty issues prior to that, it never came to be.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post

    I would think it'd be neat to see some old discussions on Xavier dying in Days of Future Past but later being alive to die in the mansion, I wonder how people used to talk about that with Claremont (unfortunately the Comix-Fans forums are gone and all of time.

    If one takes the Earth-811 as an alternate universe that diverged with Phoenix not dying on the Moon, which is something I've never liked (since the divergence point would have to be considered as some time travel incident outside of the X-Men books) and have chalked up to Rachel's false memories, then it's best to see Farouk as just a false memory..
    Earth-811 was not an Earth that had a single divergent point(singular) when The Phoenix survived the Shi'ar battle, it is an Earth that is different from E-616 with many divergent points and before the Moon battle. I liked that Phoenix survived as the Phoenix should not have been killed.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El]

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  3. #78
    Incredible Member Micabe's Avatar
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    That "genetically engineered" baby skin thief needs to be sent back to Mojo World before its programming kicks it and it starts doing its thing.

  4. #79
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    It FINALLY happened!

    spoilers:
    Jean and Rachel interact on panel in Cable #7!
    end of spoilers

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Earth-811 was not an Earth that had a single divergent point(singular) when The Phoenix survived the Shi'ar battle, it is an Earth that is different from E-616 with many divergent points and before the Moon battle. I liked that Phoenix survived as the Phoenix should not have been killed.
    This has never been confirmed. The most confirmation we have is that the Phoenix Force had to travel crosstime because 811 was divergent from 616, but there is no confirmation that the Phoenix Force survived. What people take as confirmation is really just Rachel's faulty memories.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    It FINALLY happened!

    spoilers:
    Jean and Rachel interact on panel in Cable #7!
    end of spoilers
    OM-muthaeffing-G. Now I need to get Cable. Anything of note or just a casual hello?

  7. #82
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    OM-muthaeffing-G. Now I need to get Cable. Anything of note or just a casual hello?
    spoilers:
    Rachel was summarizing her mission with Cable to scott and Jean. Jean complimented her on doing a great thing by reuniting the babies with their parents. It wasnt big, but she looked at Rachel in that interaction. Its sad that such a minor scene like that is celebrated but after having Jean not acknowledge Rachel for so long, it came as a shock
    end of spoilers

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    This has never been confirmed. The most confirmation we have is that the Phoenix Force had to travel crosstime because 811 was divergent from 616, but there is no confirmation that the Phoenix Force survived. What people take as confirmation is really just Rachel's faulty memories.
    What about The Phoenix Force did not replace Jean Grey on E-811. Instead, it merged with her. That is a differing point from way before the Shi'ar battle.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El]

    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    What about The Phoenix Force did not replace Jean Grey on E-811. Instead, it merged with her. That is a differing point from way before the Shi'ar battle.
    What I'm saying is: we don't know that actually happened on Earth-811.

    That's always just been a popular fan theory stemming from the Phoenix Force claiming Rachel sent Kate's mind crosstime instead of back in time (which is already accounted for in Days of Future Present when Ahab notes that Kate going back in time caused a divergence, forcing him to go back and prevent further divergences). Does Claremont's statement that Rachel is the Phoenix's daughter and not Jean's give that credence? Yes. But that's never been proven in a comic. If it is proven in Uncanny X-Men 140.5 in March, then we can officially state you're right. But until then, the divergence is when Kate goes back in time.

    Earth-21993 and Earth-9112 are more what you're thinking and it seems the latter is what Claremont intended, just as Excalibur #22 was foreshadowing for his Uncanny X-Men #300.

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    What I'm saying is: we don't know that actually happened on Earth-811.

    That's always just been a popular fan theory stemming from the Phoenix Force claiming Rachel sent Kate's mind crosstime instead of back in time (which is already accounted for in Days of Future Present when Ahab notes that Kate going back in time caused a divergence, forcing him to go back and prevent further divergences). Does Claremont's statement that Rachel is the Phoenix's daughter and not Jean's give that credence? Yes. But that's never been proven in a comic. If it is proven in Uncanny X-Men 140.5 in March, then we can officially state you're right. But until then, the divergence is when Kate goes back in time.

    Earth-21993 and Earth-9112 are more what you're thinking and it seems the latter is what Claremont intended, just as Excalibur #22 was foreshadowing for his Uncanny X-Men #300.
    I think we do know the Hellfire Club wasn't involved in the attack on Xavier's because the Sentinels attacked the Xavier Institute and the Massachusetts Academy at the same time in the 811 universe. Emma Frost survived the attack but she was connected to everyone who died and it made her erratic and unstable. She joined up with the resistance when Magneto sought her out to heal Logan's mind. The Hellfire Club at that time was run by Fabian Cortez and a mind controlled Betsy Braddock, Fabian was going to use the Scarlet Witch to disrupt all electronics on the planet to stop the Sentinels but also to kill as many humans as possible. Logan, Magneto, and Emma stopped the Hellfire Club from using Wanda as a weapon but they had to kill Wanda in order to stop it. Betsy was rescued from Fabian and they sent her back to Britain to be with Brian. Magneto's legs were crushed in the story and he was confined to a wheelchair from that day forward. Emma worked as their telepath in the resistance but she was killed in the hound attack that captured Magneto, and Logan was forced to flee to Canada when their base was compromised. That was the end of Emma's story, she died at the base when Ahab and the hounds attacked and captured Magneto.

    This was the in between story, Days of Future Past: Wolverine, which showed how Wolverine, Magneto, and Emma teamed up after the attack on the Xavier Institute and Massachusetts Academy.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think we do know the Hellfire Club wasn't involved in the attack on Xavier's because the Sentinels attacked the Xavier Institute and the Massachusetts Academy at the same time in the 811 universe. Emma Frost survived the attack but she was connected to everyone who died and it made her erratic and unstable. She joined up with the resistance when Magneto sought her out to heal Logan's mind. The Hellfire Club at that time was run by Fabian Cortez and a mind controlled Betsy Braddock, Fabian was going to use the Scarlet Witch to disrupt all electronics on the planet to stop the Sentinels but also to kill as many humans as possible. Logan, Magneto, and Emma stopped the Hellfire Club from using Wanda as a weapon but they had to kill Wanda in order to stop it. Betsy was rescued from Fabian and they sent her back to Britain to be with Brian. Magneto's legs were crushed in the story and he was confined to a wheelchair from that day forward. Emma worked as their telepath in the resistance but she was killed in the hound attack that captured Magneto, and Logan was forced to flee to Canada when their base was compromised. That was the end of Emma's story, she died at the base when Ahab and the hounds attacked and captured Magneto.

    This was the in between story, Days of Future Past: Wolverine, which showed how Wolverine, Magneto, and Emma teamed up after the attack on the Xavier Institute and Massachusetts Academy.
    I remember that series. It's been a while since I read it. I think the only thing that doesn't work in that series is the Sentinels shown to be in charge.

    But still, while I'm accepting that Amahl Farouk probably didn't actually meet Rachel in Earth-811, until it is explicitly shown that Phoenix did not die on the Moon, I believe the divergence point is Kate Rasputin's time travel. Otherwise, it gets us back into the skewed issue of what Rachel's real age is.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    I remember that series. It's been a while since I read it. I think the only thing that doesn't work in that series is the Sentinels shown to be in charge.

    But still, while I'm accepting that Amahl Farouk probably didn't actually meet Rachel in Earth-811, until it is explicitly shown that Phoenix did not die on the Moon, I believe the divergence point is Kate Rasputin's time travel. Otherwise, it gets us back into the skewed issue of what Rachel's real age is.
    I am just trying to understand your point, so do not mind my questions here. I haven't read the story in a very long time. But didn't it state things in narrator boxes (and not by the Phoenix Force) for the things I previously mentioned? What about that the Phoenix (Jean Grey) was not killed on the Moon, but in Pittsburgh (when Rachel was a young teen) by Mastermind exploding a nuke over that city? I do not remember the PF stating that, but that it was mentioned in a narration box. Or was that Rachel speaking to someone?
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I am just trying to understand your point, so do not mind my questions here. I haven't read the story in a very long time. But didn't it state things in narrator boxes (and not by the Phoenix Force) for the things I previously mentioned? What about that the Phoenix (Jean Grey) was not killed on the Moon, but in Pittsburgh (when Rachel was a young teen) by Mastermind exploding a nuke over that city? I do not remember the PF stating that, but that it was mentioned in a narration box. Or was that Rachel speaking to someone?
    Rachel returns to the Excalibur with her memories restored and repaired in Excalibur #65. This was in May, 1993 and everything she mentions about her timeline, or about her timeline through her by the narrator, can be disregarded as her explaining false memories or her false memories being explained.

    Uncanny X-Men #192 (April, 1985):

    Rachel mentions that Kate Rasputin was twice her age. Kitty was 15 in Days of Future Past and Kate was 33 years older and thus 48, which would make Rachel about 24 (and Franklin Richards would be 29). Kate used the codeword 'Dark Phoenix' to send Rachel back in time. At the time it wasn't clear if this was a false memory or not.

    Uncanny X-Men #199 (November, 1985):

    "This isn't my home, really. I'm a stranger. In my world, my timeline, my memories - Jean Grey lived! But in yours - "

    "To save the X-Men, mom became Phoenix - but the power was more than she could handle, it got out of control. That part's the same in both histories. The child of light became one of darkness."

    Rachel later claims that her grandparents didn't cast Jean out in her timeline, and shortly after that, she was born to Cyclops by Jean Grey instead of Baby Nathan to Cyclops by Madelyne Pryor. This would put Rachel at about thirty-two years old, whereas Jean Grey in Days of Future Present claimed they were about the same age (mid-20s) and most people here suggest Rachel is even younger than that. That's the first indication we can take that Rachel's assumption that Jean didn't die on the Moon in her timeline is one of many false memories that she had at the time.

    Excalibur #52, (July, 1992):

    The Phoenix Force claims that the X-Men of Earth-811 had never encountered Phoenix. This can be interpreted in many ways, with the basic interpretation being that Jean had never been possessed by the Phoenix - this would make both our theories wrong. So, it's best to choose a different interpretation. The two interpretations we have are that the X-Men never encountered Phoenix as in they never fought her as Dark Phoenix, or they never encountered Phoenix as a separate entity following the resurrection of Jean Grey (because there was no Madelyne in this timeline to trigger Inferno, which is when the X-Men first encountered Phoenix as a separate entity). The Phoenix Force later states that Jean Grey died in a nuclear explosion by Mastermind in Pittsburgh, when Rachel was a child (not a teenager, as she's shown sitting on Xavier's lap at the funeral). The Phoenix Force later meets Kate Rasputin and explains what she is and Kate chooses Dark Phoenix as the codeword to send Rachel back in time. It's possible Kate chose the codeword listening to the Phoenix Force's story, but given her nonreaction to the story, it's possible that she already knew about that.

    Excalibur #66
    (June, 1993)

    The first issue set after Rachel's true memories were restored to her. This issue completely verifies that what we saw in Excalibur #52 and Uncanny X-Men #192 were true memories and that Uncanny X-Men #199 was at least partially false based off of Rachel's age at the very least.

    Now, Uncanny X-Men #140.5 is coming out in March and that might make Uncanny X-Men #192 more true, or more false.

    So, if you wish to believe the divergence is the battle on the Moon, it's up to you. I don't think it is, but who knows what March will bring. I'll go with the canon.
    Last edited by Drexelhand; 01-21-2021 at 01:42 AM.

  14. #89
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    psar.jpg

    somehow the hairdo keeps reminding me of Rachel's mullet days
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    psar.jpg

    somehow the hairdo keeps reminding me of Rachel's mullet days
    Was anyone else annoyed at the last issue of Avengers. They kept repeating that no one has tamed the Phoenix. It's just so annoying.

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