Rachel Anne Summers (Grey) 2021

[askani_son]

Marcus To gives good Rachel Prestige...

I really like how is drawing Rachel in Excalibur.

[Askani's Flame]

The thing is, given that Rachel has definitively been shown to be attracted to men and her being attracted to women is subtext, turning her lesbian would be bi-erasure and I really, really hope Leah Williams doesn't do that because I'm certain she understands that would affect a lot of Rachel's fans personally (nobody likes being told what you are doesn't exist). Plus, it would really diminish the tragedy of Rachel's love story with Franklin Richards.

Given that we have only heard Leah's perspective of what she reads Rachel as, and just this one scene where Lorna makes a snarky remark to Rachel, I think it's waaay too soon for us fans to be jumping down the bi-erasure hole. She hasn't even had an on panel kiss with a woman yet (which puts her behind Kitty). Currently it feels like any sexuality goes on Krakoa and we are applying labels on her when her writer hasn't even done so. Without her saying "I'm a lesbian" or "I'm gay", I just don't want us fans to get riled up and upset over something that isn't a thing yet. And to be fully honest, if there is a writer that understands and GETS how to write characters of varying sexualities - it's Leah. She writes David well and he's bi.

I do 100% agree with your "nobody likes being told what you are doesn't exist" but that isn't and hasn't happened yet.

Meanwhile as much as I love the Franklin-Rachel love story, it's dead. Franklin will forever be her first love and lover, but this relationship is long over. As Uncanny X-Men Annual 14 was essentially my first X-Men comic (hence why I fell in love with Rachel), it will always have a special place in my heart. It will always be with Rachel as it is a snapshot of a dire time in her life: an abused teen staring annihilation in the face. She has had other relationships and while none of them have been as depicted as death-defying as theirs, any relationship she has in the future won't ever diminish that love. That's akin to saying that my current relationship diminishes the relationship I had when I first fell in love, which is just crazy. We can and will feel certain ways about her relationships, but we shouldn't compare them to one that had a distinct place and time and has no chance of ever happening.

[Drexelhand]

Given that we have only heard Leah's perspective of what she reads Rachel as, and just this one scene where Lorna makes a snarky remark to Rachel, I think it's waaay too soon for us fans to be jumping down the bi-erasure hole. She hasn't even had an on panel kiss with a woman yet (which puts her behind Kitty). Currently it feels like any sexuality goes on Krakoa and we are applying labels on her when her writer hasn't even done so. Without her saying "I'm a lesbian" or "I'm gay", I just don't want us fans to get riled up and upset over something that isn't a thing yet. And to be fully honest, if there is a writer that understands and GETS how to write characters of varying sexualities - it's Leah. She writes David well and he's bi.

I do 100% agree with your "nobody likes being told what you are doesn't exist" but that isn't and hasn't happened yet.

I'm not saying she's done it, I'm saying I hope she doesn't do it and I don't think she will because I believe she understands that bi-erasure is a real thing and it'd be demeaning to bisexual fans who identify with Rachel.

Meanwhile as much as I love the Franklin-Rachel love story, it's dead. Franklin will forever be her first love and lover, but this relationship is long over. As Uncanny X-Men Annual 14 was essentially my first X-Men comic (hence why I fell in love with Rachel), it will always have a special place in my heart. It will always be with Rachel as it is a snapshot of a dire time in her life: an abused teen staring annihilation in the face. She has had other relationships and while none of them have been as depicted as death-defying as theirs, any relationship she has in the future won't ever diminish that love. That's akin to saying that my current relationship diminishes the relationship I had when I first fell in love, which is just crazy. We can and will feel certain ways about her relationships, but we shouldn't compare them to one that had a distinct place and time and has no chance of ever happening.

Of course the Franklin-Rache love story is dead, that's what makes it so appealing. Its a tragedy and no matter how much they love each other, they cannot be together. If they tried to continue it, that would also diminish Days of Future Present. However, making Rachel a lesbian instead of outing her as bisexual would make it seem like she was never attracted to Franklin and their love was never what we saw it as, which like I said, would diminish Days of Future Present.

[Will Evans]

Look at Iceman.

[Devaishwarya]

Unless explicitly written to do so in-story (as a retcon?), what transpires now (with regards to relationships and other character developments) does not "diminish" what was written before/years ago by another writer. Rachel exploring a same-sex relationship now takes nothing away from what she had with past male love-interests.
Again, unless explicitly stated, having her romantically linked with a woman in this era would not make her 100% lesbian any more than having her linked with a man in the next era, 100% straight.

Any "diminishing" is strictly in the mind of the reader who perceives it as such.

[Drexelhand]

Unless explicitly written to do so in-story (as a retcon?), what transpires now (with regards to relationships and other character developments) does not "diminish" what was written before/years ago by another writer. Rachel exploring a same-sex relationship now takes nothing away from what she had with past male love-interests.
Again, unless explicitly stated, having her romantically linked with a woman in this era would not make her 100% lesbian any more than having her linked with a man in the next era, 100% straight.

Any "diminishing" is strictly in the mind of the reader who perceives it as such.

I'm not saying her dating a woman would be diminishing Days of Future Present, which was written by Claremont. I want Rachel to come out as bisexual, as Claremont had intended. Her coming out would be a great moment for the character, not to mention it would show more diversity among the X-Men. I'm saying that saying that retconning her to have been a lesbian all along and thus never in love with Franklin how it was presented in that story would diminish that story's relevance (which already isn't that much, if we're being honest - but it means a lot to me, personally) in terms of stories going forward.

But, as I've said, that's not the big issue. The big issue with her coming out as lesbian and not bisexual is bi-erasure and how bisexual X-Men fans may identify with Rachel Summers being affected by it. But Leah Williams is a good writer, she's certainly considerate of the fans who read her book and I believe she would not knowingly do something that would hurt her bi fans.

[Micabe]

I'm not saying her dating a woman would be diminishing Days of Future Present, which was written by Claremont. I want Rachel to come out as bisexual, as Claremont had intended. Her coming out would be a great moment for the character, not to mention it would show more diversity among the X-Men. I'm saying that saying that retconning her to have been a lesbian all along and thus never in love with Franklin how it was presented in that story would diminish that story's relevance (which already isn't that much, if we're being honest - but it means a lot to me, personally) in terms of stories going forward.

But, as I've said, that's not the big issue. The big issue with her coming out as lesbian and not bisexual is bi-erasure and how bisexual X-Men fans may identify with Rachel Summers being affected by it. But Leah Williams is a good writer, she's certainly considerate of the fans who read her book and I believe she would not knowingly do something that would hurt her bi fans.

As Claremont had intended? Just where and when (please provide a link or two) did Chris Claremont make said statement of intent regarding Rachel's sexuality?

[Drexelhand]

As Claremont had intended? Just where and when (please provide a link or two) did Chris Claremont make said statement of intent regarding Rachel's sexuality?

Claremont's said plenty of times that he's intended for Rachel and Kitty to end up together. You have Google, you can find plenty of these on your own. I believe one was the podcast with Jay and Miles.

[Devaishwarya]

Claremont's creative intent to have Rachel bi-sexual does not mean "bi-erasure" if Leah makes her a lesbian. It was an intention (ie never made canon) by a writer who has absolutely no sole and exclusive claim to these characters.

It is an absolutely certainty that every writer who's been on this franchise has had many "intentions' for these characters that never saw print. Even in this current era.

These are fictional characters subject to the whims and creativity of the writers and editors, if Leah wants to make her a lesbian, or pan or straight, that's entirely up to her and the story she wants to tell, however she wants to tell it. Any feelings of disappointment and hurt are squarely in the minds of those readers who held on to hope and wishful thinking and unfounded expectations based on something over which they have no immediate control.

And I don't think that Leah is specifically writing to and for her "bi-fans" only.

[Drexelhand]

Claremont's creative intent to have Rachel bi-sexual does not mean "bi-erasure" if Leah makes her a lesbian. It was an intention (ie never made canon) by a writer who has absolutely no sole and exclusive claim to these characters.

Given how coherently you're writing, I have to assume you're purposefully misinterpreting what I am writing to make me seem like a moron and maybe even a bigot.

I did not say that ignoring Claremont's intent would make it bi-erasure, I said I wanted Rachel to come out as bisexual as her creator Claremeont had intended in response you claiming that I said that her dating a woman would diminish a story. I did that to make it clear to you I have no problem with same-sex relationships and that I want more such diversity in the X-Men. And about it being just an intention, where did I say it was anything else? Where did I say that because Claremont intended it, that's the word of God? Stop reaching.

I said turning Rachel into a lesbian would be bi-erasure as felt by bisexual fans of Rachel Summers who identify with the character. I bolded that statement so that you can stop looking at one thing I wrote and think it means something else.

It is an absolutely certainty that every writer who's been on this franchise has had many "intentions' for these characters that never saw print. Even in this current era.

Really? I never could've figured this out before!

These are fictional characters subject to the whims and creativity of the writers and editors, if Leah wants to make her a lesbian, or pan or straight, that's entirely up to her and the story she wants to tell, however she wants to tell it. Any feelings of disappointment and hurt are squarely in the minds of those readers who held on to hope and wishful thinking and unfounded expectations based on something over which they have no immediate control.

You're telling me that Rachel and Krakoa and X-Factor aren't real? By golly, you do think I'm a moron! Yes, no doubt it is up to Leah to write the character how she sees fit but what I am saying is that Leah is a writer who knows what her fans want (ALL OF HER FANS: the straight fans AND the LGBTQ2 fans) and isn't going to do anything that would make some of her fans feel like she's saying they don't exist.

And I don't think that Leah is specifically writing to and for her "bi-fans" only.

When did I say that she was? I said she's a good and considerate writer who wouldn't do something that would hurt her bi-fans. So, does not writing to hurt your bi-fans now mean specifically and exclusively writing for them? No, it clearly doesn't.

If you want me to believe that you can't comprehend, start tying your sentences worse. Next time you respond to me, actually respond to the points I made instead of seeing one thing I wrote and then running with it to make it seem like I made a moronic and maybe even hateful statement.

[Askani's Flame]

Ok friends, let's bring the stovetop temp down to a simmer.

We all love us some Rachel. I see and understand where Drex is coming from. I don't think anyone is looking to erase anything about Rachel, in particular Leah. Right now she is living her best single life. Let's celebrate the joys that we're getting in X-Factor and Cable.

[Drexelhand]

Ok friends, let's bring the stovetop temp down to a simmer.

We all love us some Rachel. I see and understand where Drex is coming from. I don't think anyone is looking to erase anything about Rachel, in particular Leah. Right now she is living her best single life. Let's celebrate the joys that we're getting in X-Factor and Cable.

As usual in regards to things about Rachel, you're 100% right.

It's the last I'll discuss that subject with that user.

[Devaishwarya]

I do love how To illustrates her in Excalibur. I think he would have been a much better artist for X-Factor than what's-his-name.

[Askani's Flame]

As usual in regards to things about Rachel, you're 100% right.

It's the last I'll discuss that subject with that user.

Just trying to de-escalate before we have a Rachel - Selene moment in her thread lol. You both have great points of view.

I do love how To illustrates her in Excalibur. I think he would have been a much better artist for X-Factor than what's-his-name.

Baldeon. While I do enjoy David's work on X-Factor, I do kinda wish we got To sometimes. I will say one of the things that works for To in Excalibur is the focus on magic and his ethereal and faerie-esque feel works perfectly for that book. I think David's work goes along with the vibe and feel that Leah brings to the book.

It could be far worse though. There are several other artists who would make me think twice about getting the book even if Rachel was in it. Can you imagine Land on this???

Side topic: In relation to the Phoenix Force debacle in the Avengers, I read in the Jean Grey thread the suggestion that if Hickman gets the bird back, he shifts it to Rachel instead of Jean, where she mentors her on being its host. Aside from the condescending nature, and the ignorance of her wielding it just fine before, what would your thoughts be about her taking the mantle again?

[Devaishwarya]

I effin' hate that bird, and much like Jean...so over it.
It's served its purpose with Jean back in DPS. And then again in Morrison's run. And
Rachel was the one bright spot in the Phoenix story...until it wasn't.
I firmly believe that Rachel and Jean are much better off without it. I would just love to see both Jean and Rachel develop their power and strength and reach their full potential, without the Phoenix. That's the story I want to read.

Not that I'll begrudge HiX-Man his chance to do something better with it, if he feels so inclined but...I personally feel they don't need it. Other X-characters have grown and developed without a "power boost". Why should Rachel and Jean be any different?