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  1. #61
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    Does it even really matter how old Rachel is especially when the X-Men can literally create a body for them self that is at their "peak physical age".

    Anyways the way they're writing her in this era I'd say 21/22

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Rachel has always had a level of queerness to her. Nothing outright other than appearance and the closeness to Kitty, as she has only had male suitors and interests. But in several books that are non-canon Kitty and Rachel have been an endgame couple. So now that the doors are off the hinges in terms of sexuality and coupling in the new world of Krakoa, many expect Rachel to be dipping her toes into the lady pool. The fact that Kitty has done so already before Rachel is interesting. So we'll see, but her current writer has always read Rachel as a lesbian, and that might get reflected in this book
    Woah. Okay, I apologize, but now I have even more questions. What AUs were Kitty and Rachel an endgame couple? And what mainstream titles has Kitty swing that way?

    Thanks for saying my curiosity!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Well Rachel was 16/17 max during DoFP and when she came to 616, as she was still a teenager. So if you're saying that she's aged 8 years (which I would disagree given the amount of time she was floating around in the timestream after saving Brian) that would put her at 24/25 max. She was younger than Rogue who was 18, and older than Kitty who was 14 when she first joined the X-Men. She was 18 for the formation of Excalibur. Given that the timeline diverged, we will never be able to fully answer the age difference between her and Franklin. And even though Jean said they were about the same age, Jean wasn't 30 in X-Factor. At most she was 24/25. Hank was the oldest in the O5 and he didn't turn 30 until after Uncanny X-Men 300 (although canon, JDW claims that none of the O5 are 30 which is just silly). Her rebuilt body by the PF didn't change her age, but freed her from the psychic issues and torture she endured (which of course future writers then put back on her).
    My entire theory was built off of 33 years later and Franklin Richards' age, and I grant that it will fall apart given that the latter is impossible to know. Regardless, it's fun to theorize about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    While she definitely had her mind tampered by a variety of villains, she never had her memories by any of them. Her false memories came strictly from the Phoenix Force trying to uphold Kate Pryde's wish for Rachel to have a clean slate and be rid of her memories of a dead past. She's had her mind broken only by Ahab and Mojo, and has had levels of possession and mind-control by Bogan, the Shadow King, Cassandra Nova, and Mesmero.
    Her mind was first broken by Farouk, when he got her after the military killed Xavier in the mansion. Although this might not have strictly have been "her" with time travel shenanigans keeping Xavier alive until just before then instead of dying with Kelly and Moira. It might also have just been a false memory. I didn't recall why she had her false memories either, guess I need to read that issue again.
    Last edited by Drexelhand; 01-14-2021 at 04:30 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    I am assuming this is from an upcoming issue of Cable. At least he knows to call on his sister and she calls him out on it.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    Her mind was first broken by Farouk, when he got her after the military killed Xavier in the mansion. Although this might not have strictly have been "her" with time travel shenanigans keeping Xavier alive until just before then instead of dying with Kelly and Moira. It might also have just been a false memory. I didn't recall why she had her false memories either, guess I need to read that issue again.
    What are you referencing as I have never heard of this in regards to the Shadow King and Xavier/Moira/Kelly? Ahab was the first to tamper with her mind after she was captured during the raid/massacre at the mansion. Canon. She first met Farouk during "X-Men: True Friends" in the 1930's where he learned about hounds and started mimicking it based on her. She then met him again in New Excalibur when he had his Shadow X-Men in Britain.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    What are you referencing as I have never heard of this in regards to the Shadow King and Xavier/Moira/Kelly? Ahab was the first to tamper with her mind after she was captured during the raid/massacre at the mansion. Canon. She first met Farouk during "X-Men: True Friends" in the 1930's where he learned about hounds and started mimicking it based on her. She then met him again in New Excalibur when he had his Shadow X-Men in Britain.
    Wasn't the Shadow King she met in New Excalibur from an alternative universe?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    What are you referencing as I have never heard of this in regards to the Shadow King and Xavier/Moira/Kelly? Ahab was the first to tamper with her mind after she was captured during the raid/massacre at the mansion. Canon. She first met Farouk during "X-Men: True Friends" in the 1930's where he learned about hounds and started mimicking it based on her. She then met him again in New Excalibur when he had his Shadow X-Men in Britain.
    Excalibur #22 shows the aftermath of the raid at the mansion, she's brought to the Hellfire Club where it turns out that Amahl Farouk controlled the Inner Circle of her timeline (meant to be foreshadowing by Claremont for his original UXM 300). He then grabs Rachel and breaks her mind and she remembers how the experience was just like when Mojo did it. During this encounter, Farouk notes how long he has waited to get his revenge on Rachel for since she's destined to defeat him in True Friends.

    Note that while Rachel has memory of this, it may not have been her who experienced it. First, this was when she had false memories so it might not even be real. Second, Professor X and Moria originally were killed by Mystique's Brotherhood with Senator Kelly as referenced by Kate Rasputin but when they caused the divergence in Days of Future Past, the 811 Timeline did still change as noted by Ahab in Days of Future Present and X surviving to die in the mansion massacre is actually indicative of this.

    In the upcoming Uncanny X-Men 40.5, we see how Rachel got sent to the South Bronx camp so we might get some more light shed on that scene.
    Last edited by Drexelhand; 01-15-2021 at 10:49 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    Excalibur #22 shows the aftermath of the raid at the mansion, she's brought to the Hellfire Club where it turns out that Amahl Farouk controlled the Inner Circle of her timeline (meant to be foreshadowing by Claremont for his original UXM 300). He then grabs Rachel and breaks her mind and she remembers how the experience was just like when Mojo did it. During this encounter, Farouk notes how long he has waited to get his revenge on Rachel for since she's destined to defeat him in True Friends.

    Note that while Rachel has memory of this, it may not have been her who experienced it. First, this was when she had false memories so it might not even be real. Second, Professor X and Moria originally were killed by Mystique's Brotherhood with Senator Kelly as referenced by Kate Rasputin but when they caused the divergence in Days of Future Past, the 811 Timeline did still change as noted by Ahab in Days of Future Present and X surviving to die in the mansion massacre is actually indicative of this.

    In the upcoming Uncanny X-Men 40.5, we see how Rachel got sent to the South Bronx camp so we might get some more light shed on that scene.
    A couple of things as I see where you're coming from now. Thank you for sharing the reference point!

    So in Excalibur 22 there are a lot of inconsistencies with what actually happened vs what Rachel "remembers". I would say this is due to both the Phoenix Force and Mojo. Here's why:

    1) Rachel claims the Hellfire Club was the ones to raid and destroy the mansion leaving only her alive. So this is real false. The Hellfire Club was targeted at the same time as Xaviers. And given the attacks on mutants I would find it highly unlikely they would kill the mutants at the school except Rachel.
    2) I'm Rachel's memories she claims that as an 11 year old she claims the name and power of Phoenix, manifesting the raptor. Hella false, and Rachel did not come in contact with the Phoenix Force until after the events of Days of Future Past in 811 when doing recon above 616 NYC. So never happened.
    3) The Shadow King says he has waited for her in this memory, because she is the daughter/child of Jean Grey. Not because of the events of True Friends. Because True Friends took place only in 616, not 811 (as well as being written several years after Excalibur 22). So he couldn't have wanted revenge on her for something that this counterpart didn't experience. Completely separate reality.
    4) The events in question omit what actually happened. Notice Rachel never mentions being a hound, the government, or Ahab. So her memories have been altered. I say the a Phoenix Force did it to help ease her mind on what she actually did and what actually happened to her. She claims that the Shadow King's enslavement eventually led to a similar experience with Mojo, which ignores Ahab which is not what happened.
    5) I agree that it's noted in Uncanny X-Men 141 that Xavier and Moira died in the attack. Given Claremont wrote most of the issues around Rachel's actual past, I say this was a writers retcon. Not a timeline distortion.
    6) I place no value or truth in whatever story is concocted for that onimbus. I say this for the mere fact that Bishop plays a large role in it. Which is impossible as Bishop is from an altogether different timeline and never existed in 811. So if he's in the story it's non canon as he has no 616 counterpart. So while it might be an interesting story (and we kind of already know why she was sent to the camp), anything with Bishop is problematic.
    Last edited by Askani's Flame; 01-16-2021 at 01:15 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    A couple of things as I see where you're coming from now. Thank you for sharing the reference point!

    So in Excalibur 22 there are a lot of inconsistencies with what actually happened vs what Rachel "remembers". I would say this is due to both the Phoenix Force and Mojo. Here's why:

    1) Rachel claims the Hellfire Club was the ones to raid and destroy the mansion leaving only her alive. So this is real false. The Hellfire Club was targeted at the same time as Xaviers. And given the attacks on mutants I would find it highly unlikely they would kill the mutants at the school except Rachel.
    2) I'm Rachel's memories she claims that as an 11 year old she claims the name and power of Phoenix, manifesting the raptor. Hella false, and Rachel did not come in contact with the Phoenix Force until after the events of Days of Future Past in 811 when doing recon above 616 NYC. So never happened.
    3) The Shadow King says he has waited for her in this memory, because she is the daughter/child of Jean Grey. Not because of the events of True Friends. Because True Friends took place only in 616, not 811 (as well as being written several years after Excalibur 22). So he couldn't have wanted revenge on her for something that this counterpart didn't experience. Completely separate reality.
    4) The events in question omit what actually happened. Notice Rachel never mentions being a hound, the government, or Ahab. So her memories have been altered. I say the a Phoenix Force did it to help ease her mind on what she actually did and what actually happened to her. She claims that the Shadow King's enslavement eventually led to a similar experience with Mojo, which ignores Ahab which is not what happened.
    5) I agree that it's noted in Uncanny X-Men 141 that Xavier and Moira died in the attack. Given Claremont wrote most of the issues around Rachel's actual past, I say this was a writers retcon. Not a timeline distortion.
    6) I place no value or truth in whatever story is concocted for that onimbus. I say this for the mere fact that Bishop plays a large role in it. Which is impossible as Bishop is from an altogether different timeline and never existed in 811. So if he's in the story it's non canon as he has no 616 counterpart. So while it might be an interesting story (and we kind of already know why she was sent to the camp), anything with Bishop is problematic.
    1) I agree, it's odd that one issue claims the Hellfire Club did it when all others say the military did it. It's possible the Hellfire Club used their political connections to get the Xavier Estate destroyed. However, which issue does it say that the Hellfire Club was destroyed at the exact same time?

    2) I agree, another oddity which I'd chalk up to false memories but also maybe Claremont trying to shift it from being a divergent timeline to alternate universe.

    3) The Shadow King is a multiversal entity, so whatever Farouk experiences in one reality he can experience in another.

    4) It ignores Ahab but since it's to be set before him, it doesn't necessary claim he was never there.

    5) You're probably right, but the timeline changes that Ahab notes in Days of Future Present are a neat way to fix that continuity error.

    6) Claremont's stated in an interview that Bishop's journey to the past will be reframed in terms of Days of Future Past's timeline, so this is an alternate Bishop that went back to a different, alternate time.
    Last edited by Drexelhand; 01-16-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    1) I agree, it's odd that one issue claims the Hellfire Club did it when all others say the military did it. It's possible the Hellfire Club used their political connections to get the Xavier Estate destroyed. However, which issue does it say that the Hellfire Club was destroyed at the exact same time?

    2) I agree, another oddity which I'd chalk up to false memories but also maybe Claremont trying to shift it from being a divergent timeline to alternate universe.

    3) The Shadow King is a multiversal entity, so whatever Farouk experiences in one reality he can experience in another.

    4) It ignores Ahab but since it's to be set before him, it doesn't necessary claim he was never there.

    5) You're probably right, but the timeline changes that Ahab notes in Days of Future Present are a neat way to fix that continuity error.


    6) Claremont's stated in an interview that Bishop's journey to the past will be reframed in terms of Days of Future Past's timeline, so this is an alternate Bishop that went back to a different, alternate time.
    Link to said interview please...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    Link to said interview please...
    https://www.cbr.com/xmen-days-of-fut...imeline-links/

    And then for the full interview: https://www.ign.com/articles/marvel-...ew-impressions

  12. #72
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    https://aiptcomics.com/2021/01/18/x-...ard-excalibur/

    AIPT: Back to the X-Fans–Adam (@BiokineticGold) was curious, given Rachel Summers’ occasional appearances in Excalibur and the fact Betsy gifted Rachel Amazing Baby, is there something brewing between these two characters?

    Tini: See [the answer to the Captain Avalon question] and thank you so much, again, truly sorry.

    (The answer to this is ‘maybe, but I can’t and won’t tell you until it happens.’ I’m so sorry. I hope you didn’t pay too much for your question. )

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by askani_son View Post
    https://aiptcomics.com/2021/01/18/x-...ard-excalibur/

    AIPT: Back to the X-Fans–Adam (@BiokineticGold) was curious, given Rachel Summers’ occasional appearances in Excalibur and the fact Betsy gifted Rachel Amazing Baby, is there something brewing between these two characters?

    Tini: See [the answer to the Captain Avalon question] and thank you so much, again, truly sorry.

    (The answer to this is ‘maybe, but I can’t and won’t tell you until it happens.’ I’m so sorry. I hope you didn’t pay too much for your question. )
    Tini has no plans and if she does its gonna be poorly executed and probably involves them sacrificing Amazing Baby in some stupid ritual.

  14. #74
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    If he does something bad to amazing baby, I think I'll get very angry...

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    1) I agree, it's odd that one issue claims the Hellfire Club did it when all others say the military did it. It's possible the Hellfire Club used their political connections to get the Xavier Estate destroyed. However, which issue does it say that the Hellfire Club was destroyed at the exact same time?

    2) I agree, another oddity which I'd chalk up to false memories but also maybe Claremont trying to shift it from being a divergent timeline to alternate universe.

    3) The Shadow King is a multiversal entity, so whatever Farouk experiences in one reality he can experience in another.

    4) It ignores Ahab but since it's to be set before him, it doesn't necessary claim he was never there.

    5) You're probably right, but the timeline changes that Ahab notes in Days of Future Present are a neat way to fix that continuity error.

    6) Claremont's stated in an interview that Bishop's journey to the past will be reframed in terms of Days of Future Past's timeline, so this is an alternate Bishop that went back to a different, alternate time.
    Sorry for the delay, long weekend
    1) I'll look to see where I read it. Or maybe I inferred it based on the mass targeting of mutants that happened prior to the branch to all super heroes. But I would say that Hellfire Club did not oversee to execute the massacre at Xavier's. No writer, Claremont included, brings this up again in any retelling of what happened. In every mention after this comic, and before, it has been the government executing a raid with intents to kills or imprison the mutants residing there. Even if they did use their clout, which is speculation, they wouldn't have wanted all the mutants there killed as they would seek to bring them in and control them as shown by having their own academy by that point.

    2) It's possible that was the plan Claremont may have had, but we don't know sadly. Lots of his nuggets of future seeds either got ignore by future writers (or himself) or retconned. Given the memories shown by Rachel's rebirth in Excalibur 64 (mental influences removed)and the Phoenix Force's retelling of their meeting in Excalibur 52, we know she wasn't Phoenix before their meeting post-the DoFP story. So this encounter with the SK is false.

    3) That's something I'm always weary about as one would expect that a multiversal entity would have better luck taking over the world if they were experiencing everything lol. The 616 version has skipped around different dimensions/universes and always comes back here. So I guess it would make sense from a perspective of it remembering Rachel and the Phoenix, but it's a thread that was never picked up on again, even with this reality's SK trying to subvert Rachel in New Excalibur he doesn't reference True Friends of meeting Rachel and Kitty or Betsy (weird, but another instance of Claremont not using his own previous stories).

    4) As I think more about it, given that Ahab hadn't been created yet it would make sense he's not referenced (but will be shortly in the Days of Future Present) but it's something that has never been referenced outside of that one Excalibur issue. Ahab has always been noted as the one who broke Rachel's mind. Not the Shadow King. Additionally if the SK had done some level of programming in 811 then it would have been picked up on in True Friends and subsequently by the Phoenix Force when it rebuilt Rachel's mind from it's shattered remains to it's natural state. Never mentioned. It would be an interesting wrinkle but the credit is all Ahab's at this point.

    5) I think that might be true as a means of Claremont editing his own tale for future storytelling. Moira still could have died, but Xavier didn't.

    6) Oy what a headache. A different Bishop from a different timeline (which mimics his) where he goes to 811 instead of his own timeline's past? It's a lot of hoops for Claremont to jump through to just to use Lucas but sure. While I haven't read it yet, the story feels like it doesn't add value to the existing tale and also sounds like it removes Rachel's own agency of breaking herself out of the hound state and instead is sided by the "X-Men". I would love to be proved wrong.

    When I looked up the issue summary from UncannyXMen.net this tidbit from the editors makes sense to our conversation and to why it's not referenced:

    "The backstory of Rachel and the Shadow King (including such elements as to why he knew her even before her parents’ birth) was supposed to be told in Excalibur Special editions #3 &4, which were, however, never published. The story was eventually published (though probably in somewhat altered form) in the limited series X-Men: True Friends, in which Rachel and Kitty inadvertently travel back in time to the 30ies and become embroiled in a plot by the Nazis and the Shadow King. What makes this somewhat problematic is that it happened in Earth’s 616 timeline and Rachel (and her world’s Farouk logically) is from a different timeline. Perhaps this, as well as several other inconsistencies – such as teenage Rachel already displaying Phoenix powers – can be explained away by the messed-up memories she has ever since escaping from Mojoworld (as explained In Excalibur: The Sword is Drawn)."

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