Punchline (Alexis Kaye) Appreciation 2021

[Frontier]

eeeeehhh yes and no? not that I don't think Punchline is dope or has legs but it's still pretty early in her career to say she's particularly successful, at least not moreso than any of the other new characters that had been introduced in recent years at this stage of development, when the bat-offices pushed them. as far as I can tell I mean. I think the biggest difference with Tyrion's batch (Clownhunter, Ghost-Maker, Punchline) is it appears that older/hardcore fans (the message board/internet subculture types) have taken to them better and haven't been as combative about them as they have been with characters introduced around the New 52 era like Harper, Duke, and even Damian in a way. none of them were really "pushed down anyone's throat", they merely existed and people needed a talking point to justify shitting on them.

for Punchline particularly, I wouldn't even say her character's any less derivative than these other characters (which is to say, those guys weren't really all that derivative) but that's likely attributed to the fact that she's filling a niche that people feel doesn't "get in the way" of their favorite character or a character they're invested in; the same reason Luke didn't get as much push back as Duke and Harper despite coming out during the same era. Luke took over for Batwing, a secondary character based in Africa (an area most westerners are ignorant of and don't pay much mind) so he got minimal push back when they switched him in because most "hardcore" fans' investment in Batwing starts and stops at "black (african) Bat character that's over there somewhere". not to say there were no genuine post-Crisis Batwing fans, but let's not get bogged down into that. similarly Punchline is fulfilling a role that isn't perceived as stepping on any one's toes. She taking up Harley's old role, which some fans have felt she has strayed too far from as she's skyrockets in popularity, so they don't mind Punchline coming in, and are willing to process her points of difference and appreciate what she's bringing to the table; which is more than someone like Harper got not too long after she first hit the scene.

From my perspective older/hardcore fans seem 50/50 on Tynion's new characters while newer fans seem more open to them, although I think Punchline and Clownmaker were received better than Ghost-Maker.

I think the real test for Punchline will be whether the niche she's carving for herself will matter as far as media adaptions that would have potentially used Harley are concerned.

[J. D. Guy]

eeeeehhh yes and no? not that I don't think Punchline is dope or has legs but it's still pretty early in her career to say she's particularly successful, at least not moreso than any of the other new characters that had been introduced in recent years at this stage of development, when the bat-offices pushed them. as far as I can tell I mean. I think the biggest difference with Tyrion's batch (Clownhunter, Ghost-Maker, Punchline) is it appears that older/hardcore fans (the message board/internet subculture types) have taken to them better and haven't been as combative about them as they have been with characters introduced around the New 52 era like Harper, Duke, and even Damian in a way. none of them were really "pushed down anyone's throat", they merely existed and people needed a talking point to justify shitting on them.

for Punchline particularly, I wouldn't even say her character's any less derivative than these other characters (which is to say, those guys weren't really all that derivative) but that's likely attributed to the fact that she's filling a niche that people feel doesn't "get in the way" of their favorite character or a character they're invested in; the same reason Luke didn't get as much push back as Duke and Harper despite coming out during the same era. Luke took over for Batwing, a secondary character based in Africa (an area most westerners are ignorant of and don't pay much mind) so he got minimal push back when they switched him in because most "hardcore" fans' investment in Batwing starts and stops at "black (african) Bat character that's over there somewhere". not to say there were no genuine post-Crisis Batwing fans, but let's not get bogged down into that. similarly Punchline is fulfilling a role that isn't perceived as stepping on any one's toes. She taking up Harley's old role, which some fans have felt she has strayed too far from as she's skyrockets in popularity, so they don't mind Punchline coming in, and are willing to process her points of difference and appreciate what she's bringing to the table; which is more than someone like Harper got not too long after she first hit the scene.

I definitely agree that it isn't so much that Punchline specifically has become some kind of "hit" (because Punchline, like Clownhunter and Ghost-Maker, are really still too new), but rather that, in general, Clownhunter, Ghost-Maker, and Punchline were a considerably more evenly-accepted batch of new characters than Duke, Harper, and Damian were. And indeed Damian counts in the latter, since despite the fact that he consistently defies his haters, Damian nonetheless suffers their wrath on a consistent basis that continues clearly to this very day.

I also concur that none of them were "shoved down people's throat's." That has always been a buzz phrase thrown around to hyperbolize unjustified individual or group hatred towards a fictional character or faction. The truth was that most of the New 52 new characters were, at the most charitable, used as evenly as should be expected of a character who takes place within a story should; and at the most plain and really most apparent, those character where actually severely underutilized. "Shoved down people's throat's" is a consistent buzz phrase used by their belligerent haters because, from the haters' perspective, they don't want to see these characters at all, and thus even using them in a reasonably fair and consistent manner is using them too much. (It's why we had Duke haters complaining about Duke's role in early Rebirth Batman despite Duke never really actually having a role in that book prior to disappearing from it altogether.) Because they have no concrete basis for this hatred of those characters, hyperbolized talking points are established and other similar ones are fabricated.

While Clownhunter, Ghost-Maker, and Punchline have all had to suffer the same things, they haven't had to suffer it on the same wavelengths and same frequencies. Again, that's because they were more accepted on a more even-tone basis than the likes of Duke, Harper, and Damian were (and still are).



I also appreciate this post keeping it real as to what the likely most accurate reason for why Punchline (in particular, but also Clownhunter and Ghost-Maker in less easily discernable ways) gets more of an even-toned pass than Duke, Harper, and Damian are generally afforded. As mentioned, Punchline isn't perceived as fandomly threatening in the niche she's fulfilling.

Kudos for also rightly pointing out how Luke dodged the same brunt force that, for example, Duke had to face (and still has to face). Granted, Luke did get some of the hate Duke got; for Luke, it took the form of the passive-aggressive hatred of Black characters (especially male Black characters) being "boring" or "plain" or whatever when there's a Black character who doesn't come pre-packaged with the mainstream Black stereotypes many of those dismissers expect a Black character to have. (And even in cases where they do conform or seem to conform, to whatever extent, they'll often still be dishonestly derided for conforming/seemingly conforming to the stereotypes in question.) But because that subset of fandom in general didn't perceive Luke as being in, say, Nightwing or Red Hood's way, Luke dodged a lot of the type of fire Duke came under and was better able to be seen for and appreciated for being himself.

[lemonpeace]

From my perspective older/hardcore fans seem 50/50 on Tynion's new characters while newer fans seem more open to them, although I think Punchline and Clownmaker were received better than Ghost-Maker.

I think the real test for Punchline will be whether the niche she's carving for herself will matter as far as media adaptions that would have potentially used Harley are concerned.

oh, I'm not saying she or the Tynion batch are universally accepted by older/hardcore fans, it's basically a general rule of thumb that these type of fans tend to have a harder time accepting new characters. like with Harper, Duke, and Damian, newer fans accept easily because they're typically seen as their generation of characters. it's not a surprise that a lot of fans of Duke or Harper are people who were starting to get into or deeper into comics lore around the time of them being introduced. what I meant was, despite the older/hardcore fans being lets say 50/50, there are significantly less attacks on the characters (and by extension, those who are fans of those characters) than the New 52 batch got. there are far less people complaining about how stupid that character is, how worthless the character is, how redundant the character is, etc., which routinely dominated and shut down the discourse regarding/surrounding the N52 batch. I remember Harper still getting criticized for "being shoved down our throats" even when she wasn't part of the any Batbooks, and Duke being **** on in the same way for simply being in the book and contributing even the bare minimum, ya know what I mean?

I don't think there is much of a concern for where Punchline will fit in relation to Harley, simply because the way Harley's developed and the niche Punchline occupies provides an automatic out by having her simply be an antagonist to Harley. Punchline occupying the position of Joker's right hand gal does two things: a) it further pushes Harley toward independence from the Joker (which is what DC wants to lean into) & b) it gives Punchline a lane that's established to work, can be redefined, and that no one else is occupying.

I think the biggest hurdle for Punchline, as with all new characters, is will DC be consistent with growing her character into fruition. Punchline's niche as a Joker fanatic that's not romantically linked to him and leans into the post-Truth/conspiracy theory and obsessive stan culture of contemporary society has the legs to coexist with contemporary Harley, someone who's freed themself of that kind of toxic behavior. the trick is having DC consistently use and develop her so the creatives doing these adaptations want to use her at all.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Sweeney Boo is drawing Punchline now.

[mathew101281]

[Frontier]

The Joker's deadly new moll...

[mathew101281]

The Joker's deadly new moll...

I like her because she has the cool mix of good character design, cool motives and useful roll.