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  1. #31
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    I am singularly unimpressed with this ‘speed feat’.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I am singularly unimpressed with this ‘speed feat’.
    But are you marriedularly impressed by it?

  3. #33
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    But are you marriedularly impressed by it?
    .....

    No.

    ^_^
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    There are many much stronger people in DC then Superman (Darkseid is an obvious one, Doomsday, etc.), and there are many people who are roughly exactly as strong as he is (notably, obviously, other Kryptonians, Martian Manhunter, Black Adam, Captain Marvel/Shazam, etc.). ALL of them are stronger than Diana, based on what actually happens on panel.

    Saying Diana has the quickest reflexes in DC is strictly laughable: whoever the high end Flash of the day is MUCH faster and quicker than Diana, to chuck out one example easily. And again, Clark is quicker than Diana.

    Of course, to go back once again to the topic at bar here, Kory is literally a statue compared to either so she just dies before she even knows the fight starts. She doesn't get a minute to start draining Clark while he stands there and lets her.
    False. Kryptonians like Powergirl and Supergirl are not as strong as Superman. And they aren't stronger than Diana. A character that already beat those two more than once. If you think WW is nowhere near Superman in power. Then shazam is in an even worse position. Based on actual feats he hasn't been superman equal in anything for a long time now.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Without touching Supergirl or Powergirl, I do think it is worth noting that mystical is right about Shazam. In post Flash Point Superman has a lot less physical peers than post crisis Supes did. Meanwhile, Shazam has been shifted to less of a Kryptonians clone than a Thor analogue. He throws a lot more lightning around and casts actual magic spells with esoteric transmutation and such rather than emphasize his physical abilities.

    I don't really get why we are discussing this though, since no one but the OP thinks that Starfire belongs anywhere near Clark or Diana in a fight.

  6. #36
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Without touching Supergirl or Powergirl, I do think it is worth noting that mystical is right about Shazam. In post Flash Point Superman has a lot less physical peers than post crisis Supes did. Meanwhile, Shazam has been shifted to less of a Kryptonians clone than a Thor analogue. He throws a lot more lightning around and casts actual magic spells with esoteric transmutation and such rather than emphasize his physical abilities.

    I don't really get why we are discussing this though, since no one but the OP thinks that Starfire belongs anywhere near Clark or Diana in a fight.
    We are discussing this, because user big_adventure basically suggested that any DC heavy hitter under the sun is automatically stronger than Diana for some strange reason. Even when he talks about feats being very important to rank characters and their power level. So i thought it was important to point out that. A)Not all kryptonians are Superman's equals. The likes of Supergirl and Powergirl are 2 examples of kryptonians that don't match Superman in feats. And 2 kryptonians that Diana has been shown to be more than capable enough to handle in a fight. And B) Shazam hasn't done anything on par with superman in over a decade. In fact his catalogue of feats is the least impressive among most heavy hitters from 2011 and onwards. So user big_adventure saying he is stronger than Diana is not backed up by feats.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    We are discussing this, because user big_adventure basically suggested that any DC heavy hitter under the sun is automatically stronger than Diana for some strange reason. Even when he talks about feats being very important to rank characters and their power level. So i thought it was important to point out that. A)Not all kryptonians are Superman's equals. The likes of Supergirl and Powergirl are 2 examples of kryptonians that don't match Superman in feats. And 2 kryptonians that Diana has been shown to be more than capable enough to handle in a fight. And B) Shazam hasn't done anything on par with superman in over a decade. In fact his catalogue of feats is the least impressive among most heavy hitters from 2011 and onwards. So user big_adventure saying he is stronger than Diana is not backed up by feats.
    You have this weird tendency to take someone who agrees with you on a particular point and then try to argue with them about something they haven't actually said they disagree with you about. That's a really ineffective way of convincing people of anything.

  8. #38
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    We are discussing this, because user big_adventure basically suggested that any DC heavy hitter under the sun is automatically stronger than Diana for some strange reason. Even when he talks about feats being very important to rank characters and their power level. So i thought it was important to point out that. A)Not all kryptonians are Superman's equals. The likes of Supergirl and Powergirl are 2 examples of kryptonians that don't match Superman in feats. And 2 kryptonians that Diana has been shown to be more than capable enough to handle in a fight. And B) Shazam hasn't done anything on par with superman in over a decade. In fact his catalogue of feats is the least impressive among most heavy hitters from 2011 and onwards. So user big_adventure saying he is stronger than Diana is not backed up by feats.
    A) Are you suggesting that a 110 pound female of a given species is weaker than a 230 pound male of the same species? What a shock! Oh, wait: no it's not. However, Kryptonians, in DC, have always been presented as a race who are all basically as strong as each other.

    B) As far as Shazam's presentation changing: that's info for me, I haven't read him in a long time. Is the new consensus that he's weaker than he was before, or just that his writing has changed? I really don't know. Before, he was always presented as an analogue to Clark in strength.

    C) Black Adam has always been presented as a Superman analogue.

    D) Pre-nu, Martian Manhunter was always presented as roughly exactly as strong as Clark. He was apparently STRONGER in Nu, but I admit to having no idea where he stands now.

    There are a bunch of strong people in DC who are weaker than Diana. I presented a few who have nearly always been presented as being as strong as Superman, who has always been presented as being stronger than Diana. Always.

    Of course, that was all based on a completely specious and board-unacceptable argument on your point, that also had nothing to do with this thread: that Diana, despite being slower than Clark, would be faster in combat then Clark because "she doesn't have to think", I believe it was. Despite Diana, on panel, being slower than Clark in combat.

    However, again, that has literally nothing to do with this thread - a thread where Starfire dies before she ever knows the fight has started because Superman has reaction speeds billions of times faster than Kory.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  9. #39
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    A) Are you suggesting that a 110 pound female of a given species is weaker than a 230 pound male of the same species? What a shock! Oh, wait: no it's not. However, Kryptonians, in DC, have always been presented as a race who are all basically as strong as each other.

    B) As far as Shazam's presentation changing: that's info for me, I haven't read him in a long time. Is the new consensus that he's weaker than he was before, or just that his writing has changed? I really don't know. Before, he was always presented as an analogue to Clark in strength.

    C) Black Adam has always been presented as a Superman analogue.

    D) Pre-nu, Martian Manhunter was always presented as roughly exactly as strong as Clark. He was apparently STRONGER in Nu, but I admit to having no idea where he stands now.

    There are a bunch of strong people in DC who are weaker than Diana. I presented a few who have nearly always been presented as being as strong as Superman, who has always been presented as being stronger than Diana. Always.

    Of course, that was all based on a completely specious and board-unacceptable argument on your point, that also had nothing to do with this thread: that Diana, despite being slower than Clark, would be faster in combat then Clark because "she doesn't have to think", I believe it was. Despite Diana, on panel, being slower than Clark in combat.

    However, again, that has literally nothing to do with this thread - a thread where Starfire dies before she ever knows the fight has started because Superman has reaction speeds billions of times faster than Kory.
    Excuse me? actual feats clearly show that not all kryptonians are as strong as superman. Which is why i mentioned powergirl and supergirl as 2 clear examples of that. They are from the same race. But Superman outclasses them in every category based on actual feats.

    Shazam's power level hasn't been portrayed on par with Superman in over a decade. Others such as Martian Manhunter tend to be shown as a character that could defeat Superman because of abilities such as intangibility and TP, which can allow him to mind rape many high tiers. But based solely on physical strength? I haven't seen him match Superman's feats of the last 10 years. Superman post flash point has less physical peers than pre flashpoint Superman, when we look at his feats compared to other heavy hitters in post flashpoint continuity. So no. Not all the characters that you mentioned have always been presented as stronger than Diana, and is even more evident in the Post Flash point continuity.
    Last edited by mystical41; 01-22-2021 at 05:36 AM.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    I'd definitely put J'onn below Diana post crisis. At the very least, they are close enough for Diana's skill to win out in a fight where J'onn doesn't use his other powers. Of course, with his other powers he was significantly more dangerous than Clark or Diana. Arguably put together.

    After Flash Point, I've seen him help Clark shove around Braniac's larger than Earth space ship, which is a better raw strength feat than I've seen for her or Shazam. Diana does have a lot of fights with Kryptonians but I'm not sure what she has for independent bench marks.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    I could swear that there were periods in the post-Crisis DCU that had Supergirl and Powergirl as being explicitly as strong or slightly stronger than Clark, though I can't remember if there was some sort of power-up or power-down involved.

  12. #42
    Amazing Member Muadib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    I could swear that there were periods in the post-Crisis DCU that had Supergirl and Powergirl as being explicitly as strong or slightly stronger than Clark, though I can't remember if there was some sort of power-up or power-down involved.
    When Kara Supergirl was reintroduced in Superman Batman, she was shoving Clark around. Jeph Loeb and co kept hyping her as being stronger than Clark as a way to get cheap heat and fan controversy. When a new writer took over, this was explained as her not having the subconscious holding back Clark exhibits all the time, and that when Superman goes all out, he is still the most powerful Kryptonian.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    So the thing about Superman is that for the last 30 years some writers treat him as being head and shoulders above any other member of the Justice League. Post crisis, this wasn't really the case. Captain Marvel demonstrated being close to dead even with him at various points. His (consistent) raw power feats were below Kyle Rayner and his speed feats were nothing to Wally West. He still beat them up on occasion or tore through enemies that beat them.

    The S shield jobbing was real. Not as bad as, say, Captain America, but a similar phenomenon.

    But since Flash Point? They've given him consistently better and better feats. When a writer decides to treat him as the top dog, he has the feats to back it up. And people like Shazam don't go the distance fighting him anymore, at least from what I have seen. Wonder Woman does, but I haven't seen her do much on even her post crisis level outside of her fights. Hence, I'm hesitant to use Clark as a benchmark for her. Other people may have more feats from her, and I'd love to see them.

    And all that being said... Everyone I named in this post is so far above Starfire it isn't funny. This is less than a fight. It would be harder for most of these people NOT to kill her than to kill her.

  14. #44
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    So the thing about Superman is that for the last 30 years some writers treat him as being head and shoulders above any other member of the Justice League. Post crisis, this wasn't really the case. Captain Marvel demonstrated being close to dead even with him at various points. His (consistent) raw power feats were below Kyle Rayner and his speed feats were nothing to Wally West. He still beat them up on occasion or tore through enemies that beat them.

    The S shield jobbing was real. Not as bad as, say, Captain America, but a similar phenomenon.

    But since Flash Point? They've given him consistently better and better feats. When a writer decides to treat him as the top dog, he has the feats to back it up. And people like Shazam don't go the distance fighting him anymore, at least from what I have seen. Wonder Woman does, but I haven't seen her do much on even her post crisis level outside of her fights. Hence, I'm hesitant to use Clark as a benchmark for her. Other people may have more feats from her, and I'd love to see them.

    And all that being said... Everyone I named in this post is so far above Starfire it isn't funny. This is less than a fight. It would be harder for most of these people NOT to kill her than to kill her.
    I understand that talking about these characters here don't seem to make much sense. But the OP seems to think Kory is on that level so here we are.

    By actual feats outside battles. Superman is superior to the characters mentioned. In Post Crisis and onwards. But if scaling based on battles is the most used tool for the likes of shazam, supergirl, powergirl. It should be the same for Wonder Woman. For example Diana compared to Supergirl and Powergirl. Diana is consistently seen being mentioned as the strongest female hero. And consistently seen being strong enough to challenge them physically. So i think it is not accureate for some people to assume she is below them when there is plenty of evidence that shows her as their power peer.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    I'd certainly agree that if post crisis Diana isn't as strong as the gal Kryptonians she's close enough for it not to matter. There's a pretty good fight by Gail Simone between the two. It show cases their powers quite well. I'd say PG came across as slightly more powerful but you could definitely argue otherwise, and once Diana actually started using her warrior skills on her it wasn't even a contest.

    But honestly, this is why I prefer examining their stand alone feats. For some characters fights are all we have, but the big names have a lot more appearances.

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