Loki Appreciation 2021

[Riimi]

Oh, sorry, I should have provided more information. The funny thing is, I don't know if I even read it myself -- I was mostly going off of what I remember being discussed here. It was something along the lines of Loki tying himself to the new Norns, and at the end he made some sort of comment about becoming All-father. It's not the greatest setup itself because of the trickery involved, imo, but we'll see how Cates handles it.

Ok, I just read the issue in question, lmao (it was on sale). Loki ties his fate to three toddlers who are heavily foreshadowed as being the new Norns. Jane asks him why and makes a comment about him being 'godfather Loki'. She flies off, and he says, "Well, I was thinking more...All-Father." So, it seems in the issue that he's kinda back to his old schemes, which isn't good, but that's what happened.

[rpmaluki]

I guess then the question would be, was this a (classic) villainous move or something that appears villainous to the reader because of Loki's history with deception and trickery? Was his endgame revealed and does it tie back to what Cates is doing or are the two books removed from one another? I ask because under Aaron we saw Loki actively do bad things but for the right reasons (to him). It backfired on him but I think we could glean his motivation behind his actions even if we cannot approve or condone his actions. Could he have been doing something similar with the norn babies? Could he be seeing the big picture of whatever is happening even if he has no control of the events so he does what he does just like under Aaron and not so much because he's truly fallen off the wagon but because he doesn't really have a lot of tools in his bag beside deception and trickery.

[Raye]

Just a reminder to anyone reading, who like relies on email subs to the thread or whatever, CBR resets all appreciation threads every new year, so this thread will likely be shut down tomorrow, unless they change things this year. Look for a rebooted thread in the following days. If I get to it before someone else, i will probably just kinda copy and paste a couple of the most recent replies to keep the discussion.

No endgame was revealed, it could go either way. In the series, him tying his fate to theirs was played off by Loki as an impulse. But if you were being pessimistic, and the little goddesses were really the new Norns, it could be read as him trying to have some control over fate by binding himself to them. He also cut a deal with Karnilla earlier in the series for some... I don't remember exactly, some water that dealt with fate, and it was never mentioned again after that. Which does fit with Loki's obsession with breaking free of fate, but it could just be him trying to further distance himself from his old role. I don't think he intends any ill will towards the girls though, they quite deliberately contrasted his reaction to them vs Hela's reaction. Loki was absolutely fascinated by them, he seemed to think they were wonderful and he played with them, all smiles. Hela was FURIOUS, just incredibly angry about the whole situation.

Gonna have to do a lot of snipping here, was my dad's birthday, so not been able to look at the thread all day

Is it regressive and complacent, absolutely. I think Cates is basically telling a long winded story that points that out. It's development arc even if it's not a positive one upwardly or laterally. What I hope is that Loki doesn't suffer the same fate of writers wanting to keep him locked in a role he played for decades, undoing the last ten years or so of real forward movement development.

Yeah if they make some commentary at the same time, and have other characters be disappointed in Thor (which they have been, especially Sif) it could work, even if it would not be my first preference. But I am worried that regressing Thor also means regressing Loki, in order to revive the old dynamic between them. Though having Thor regress while everyone else is able to move on in new roles (Sif, Loki, Balder, Freyja, and more, all explicitly taking on new directions and seeming to be doing fine with it, Loki in particular has been actively trying to escape his old role for like 10 years, it's only Thor that's falling on his face) makes that commentary clearer that this is a failing with Thor, that could potentially be screwing things up for everyone, but Loki in particular. The whole Blake situation is reassuring on that front (but bad for Blake, not that i think he had an army of fans or anything) because it did rather explicitly state that Loki's role was his now, which means Loki will have to do something else. But that is easy for another writer to ignore or undo. Also, i worry that it locks Loki into a support role where they won't do solo stories with him. Thor as king, there is enough investment there to try and make stories with him in the role of King work with him at the center of it, due to his many years with a solo book, and all that time where he was the heir to the throne. Loki in that role, I am not so sure, he's more likely to be reduced to, well, the same amount of panel time and function in the story that Odin had, which wasn't all that much, really. It's not like we ever got an Odin solo book.

Secondly, the irony cannot be lost on a Loki that has the kingdom he spent decades trying to usurpe through villainous and dastardly means thrust upon him legitimately because as it turned out, he was right about Thor not being a good leader in terms of ruling a kingdom.

Heh yeah that is one part that could be fun, if they make a point of how Loki was actually right all that time. Went about trying to make his point in a pretty bad way in the past, but.... he was right.

I also thought there were hints in Cates run pointing towards Loki becoming the Champion, but either I misread them or he swerved. I'm thinking he might have been planning to go along at first (else why greenlight Kibblesmith's book), but changed his mind. Of course, I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure.

I just hope we didn't shoot ourselves int he foot with speculation. sometimes you hear about writers who see that fans guessed right about something they are doing, so they change plans. Like it's some kind of requirement that fans aren't allowed to guess correctly, which sucks.

Yeah, I know the All-father role comes with more drawbacks narratively, but I think Loki is the more logical person for the job. Really, the biggest thing keeping him from doing a good job at being All-father was the fact that he was evil. Given the Valkyrie mini, I think it's likely that he ends up All-father by himself, because the line where he talks about it seems like foreshadowing, given what we know now. I do kinda hope that he eventually realizes that having so much power is problematic and splits it up or something, but I think initially he's going to do at least a decent job. Otherwise, it's pretty much straight into another succession crisis. I also think that Cates wants to acknowledge how Loki's changed, given how he passed on the role of God of Lies to Blake and how he's been reluctant to use trickery because he's afraid of falling back into his old role. If Loki fails, where else is Cates going to put him? I expect a future author to make him a jerk because that is pretty much required for the all father, but there's always the fear of a future writer regressing him, even if he were to become champion.

I do agree, especially in light of Thor's recent failures as king, that Loki is probably the most logical choice, as long as Thor and the others really believe he is reformed. (which is unclear. Thor still seems to want him to be his old self, he wants Loki to be underhanded for him. but on the other hand he is going to Loki for help, so... he must trust him on some level) and Sif, who has more reason to hate Loki than most, actually seems fairly cool with him. So I think at least in Asgard, people may be willing to go along with him as king. And Loki has the skills, particularly with magic, which kinda seems to be a requirement, he's intelligent, and since the face turn, i think he is probably less prone to leading Asgard into conflict than either Thor or Angela, which I would consider a good thing. I think it could be interesting if Thor and Loki clash over how things are done, but for the opposite reasons as Odin. Odin was too harsh at times, while Loki i could see ruling in a way that Thor might consider 'weak' especially given how insanely aggressive he has been in his own time on the throne. Thor seems to think it important to prove strength as the way to rule, he seems to think intimidation is the most viable form of diplomacy. Right from the very first scene of Cates' run, he's been this way. While I think Loki would be less concerned with appearing 'strong' and intimidating, and more concerned with accomplishing what's good for Asgard and the realms.

I do think there is potential here, I just think the Champion story would be more fun, is all.

I thought of Jotunheim as well -- if not for the Valkyrie mini, I might have even passed him by because of it. I guess there are two options: he either passes on the throne of Jotunheim to someone else, or Asgard becomes an Empire. Which would freak out the Avengers and be hilarious, so I'm a fan. And all Loki wants is for Stark to supply Asgard with a 5G network. (I'm not super serious about this but it's a fun idea.)

Yeah, in order to avoid a conflict of interest, he has to either give up the throne of Jotunheim (but to who? no one has really been set up there, I mean you know Drrf would just be instantly killed) or empire. And I don't think an empire is necessary to the Avengers to freak out. If they knew Loki was on Asgard's throne, they'd think Asgard was poised to declare war on Earth, (again) for sure. Meanwhile Loki's just trying to undo the damage Thor did. Fix the magic, do the diplomacy Thor's apparently been neglecting, resettle all those refugees (WHY has Thor not resettled them yet? it's insane that they are still just milling around Asgard, rather than resettled. Jotunheim, Vanaheim, Alfheim etc. surely there is room to settle them somewhere that would be better for them than them all being crammed into Asgard.)

They are both temporary but the former has potential to last a long while yet, even if there's no writer actively using Loki. It progresses his story vs keeping him in limbo. It not as glamorous is being champion but being the all father will not preclude Loki from having his little adventures while watching over the ten realms. He's already shown his he's capable acting in the interest of the realms even if his actions themselves aren't great. It reminds me of MCU Hela when she pointed out how Loki was a lot more like Odin than Thor and I think exploring Loki's rulership will be a lot more interesting than anything else.

Yeah, being all-father isn't a regression for Loki, i just worry that if Thor regresses, he will drag everyone else with him. As I said above, it is possible his tendency towards regression back to the familiar and comfortable is painted as a flaw, allowing the rest of Asgard to progress around him, which could work. They could even make it clear that Loki was SUPPOSED to be the new champion, but Thor's mucking things up, which could account for the mixed signals.

[rpmaluki]

Yeah, being all-father isn't a regression for Loki, i just worry that if Thor regresses, he will drag everyone else with him. As I said above, it is possible his tendency towards regression back to the familiar and comfortable is painted as a flaw, allowing the rest of Asgard to progress around him, which could work. They could even make it clear that Loki was SUPPOSED to be the new champion, but Thor's mucking things up, which could account for the mixed signals.

That could work. It keeps the story moving forward for other characters and not so much for Thor at the same time, potentially pleasing everyone altogether.

And yes it always boils down to giving Loki his own solo. Instead of cancelling Kibblesmith's book perhaps they should have retooled it to fit Cates. He could have tread waters for the time (running Jotünheim dealing with old enemies trying to pay him back for past betrayal, coming down to earth for a breather from all that responsibility etc) as Cates came up with this new direction and and then Kibblesmith could run with it without stepping on Thor's toes.


Marvel can do so much with Loki as a character if only they realised it.

[Raye]

Yeah, like i could be ok with that story, if they did do the whole commentary on Thor's behaviour not being good, which they have been doing even if some fans aren't quite getting it. And in hindsight , this take would make sense with some aspects of Cates' take on Thor. Like how Thor is just like 'but you're the god of lies' stuff towards Loki makes a lot more sense, if he just sees everyone as immutable, because he is. Like he just can't quite fathom someone changing a fundamental aspect about themselves, because he's not really changed that much in a long time, (Or at least, he's changed pretty slowly) and is unwilling to do so now, when he is expected to. Then in contrast, there's Jane becoming a standin Thor and then Valkyrie, and rolling with it, (even if she is attempting to hang on to aspects of her old life, like her job, but she is still prioritizing her new duties), his parents got divorced, and his mom's decided to take up hunting with a machine gun cat, Sif's taken to her new role without (much) complaint after her brother's passing, Blake's gone completely batshit since the last time they switched places, and Loki's fighting tooth and nail to change his role, even though he is often thwarted by fate. And that fate bit with Loki could reinforce Thor's belief, despite Loki being desperate to escape his old role. So all these people around him are changing, but Thor's just... stuck. He is being expected to change and adapt, but doesn't want to. He was content with how things were. And he may be confused by everyone else not wanting to stand in place with him. Which could be ok, except that it is negatively effecting everyone around him. And it may be clouding his perception of others, where he just assumes everyone is essentially unchanging, because he is. So yes, in that sense i can absolutely see how you can get some good commentary and themes out of that, and how it could be an interesting story. But as a Loki fan, i want whatever will get him more panel time, and worry the king angle just isn't that. I hope to be proven wrong there, though, if this does happen. I also hope they don't take the shallow and predictable route of making him a selfish and vain leader.

[rpmaluki]

Yeah, like i could be ok with that story, if they did do the whole commentary on Thor's behaviour not being good, which they have been doing even if some fans aren't quite getting it. And in hindsight , this take would make sense with some aspects of Cates' take on Thor. Like how Thor is just like 'but you're the god of lies' stuff towards Loki makes a lot more sense, if he just sees everyone as immutable, because he is. Like he just can't quite fathom someone changing a fundamental aspect about themselves, because he's not really changed that much in a long time, (Or at least, he's changed pretty slowly) and is unwilling to do so now, when he is expected to. Then in contrast, there's Jane becoming a standin Thor and then Valkyrie, and rolling with it, (even if she is attempting to hang on to aspects of her old life, like her job, but she is still prioritizing her new duties), his parents got divorced, and his mom's decided to take up hunting with a machine gun cat, Sif's taken to her new role without (much) complaint after her brother's passing, Blake's gone completely batshit since the last time they switched places, and Loki's fighting tooth and nail to change his role, even though he is often thwarted by fate. And that fate bit with Loki could reinforce Thor's belief, despite Loki being desperate to escape his old role. So all these people around him are changing, but Thor's just... stuck. He is being expected to change and adapt, but doesn't want to. He was content with how things were. And he may be confused by everyone else not wanting to stand in place with him. Which could be ok, except that it is negatively effecting everyone around him. And it may be clouding his perception of others, where he just assumes everyone is essentially unchanging, because he is. So yes, in that sense i can absolutely see how you can get some good commentary and themes out of that, and how it could be an interesting story. But as a Loki fan, i want whatever will get him more panel time, and worry the king angle just isn't that. I hope to be proven wrong there, though, if this does happen. I also hope they don't take the shallow and predictable route of making him a selfish and vain leader.

Maybe I'm a little jaded with the champion role giving Loki significant panel time because of the last time he lifted the hammer. Mind you it was due to a spell forcing characters to behave in a specific way and not at all organically which is why Axis was shortlived and not even memorable. I do find Cates build up intriguing but I want a lot more than the drips and drabs we've been getting going as far back as Aaron. At the end of the day, I just want more Loki in whatever shape or form.

[Yoruno]

IDK if this is a local or an international edition, but the 2022 Avengers wall calendar features Loki (at last!) , and I'm on cloud nine. Season's greetings everyone!

[Frontier]

What happened to Sigyn?

[Raye]

She just.... stopped appearing one day. There was no explanation, she just stopped appearing sometime in the 80s. I doubt her final appearance was actually intended to be her final appearance. She's appeared a few times since, but only in flashbacks to the past.

Maybe I'm a little jaded with the champion role giving Loki significant panel time because of the last time he lifted the hammer. Mind you it was due to a spell forcing characters to behave in a specific way and not at all organically which is why Axis was shortlived and not even memorable. I do find Cates build up intriguing but I want a lot more than the drips and drabs we've been getting going as far back as Aaron. At the end of the day, I just want more Loki in whatever shape or form.

Yeah I think the inversion and this are very different things, so i really would have expected Loki to get a lot of panel time, maybe not in the Thor title, but relauncch JIM or give him a solo, sure. either way I would like an anniversary relaunch of JIM with Loki. Maybe it could spin out of the Hulk thing? I still think that while Thor can fight Hulk all he likes, i would like to see a conversation between Loki and Banner even more. (even tho right now Hulk and Banner are the same, but... you know what i mean)

IDK if this is a local or an international edition, but the 2022 Avengers wall calendar features Loki (at last!) , and I'm on cloud nine. Season's greetings everyone!

Nice! is that MCU or comics?

Also, once again - reminder to look for the rebooted thread in the new year