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  1. #331
    Mighty Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    So, the show has won me over.

    What are the best Loki comics??

  2. #332
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoruno View Post
    Whoops, someone noticed that her TVA file says Sylvie Laufeydottir. Nice. That means she was a variant since the moment she was born. Probably adopted by a different family.
    It's also possible she simply chose to change her name. She did react negatively to being called Loki, so... maybe there is some trauma associated with that name to her.

    I was on board with the whole Sylvie Lushton thing until I saw a screenshot of that file. It seems very unlikely she is that Sylvie if that really is her last name. I just wonder why they picked that specific name. I hope there is a good explanation.

  3. #333
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I think she is an amalgam character, using bits and pieces from a number of characters and concepts from the comics. But either way I don't see her as 'Lady Loki' to me that is specifically Loki, like from the main universe (whether comics or movies) actually occupying the body of a woman. Whether it's due to taking one over like happened in JMS' run with Sif, or shape shifting, still basically the same character, just a woman now.

    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    So, the show has won me over.

    What are the best Loki comics??
    that depends on what version of Loki you are interested in. I think most in this thread are more fans of the modern take, and it seems to be what the show writers are primarily drawing from as well. In that case, I'd start with Kieron Gillen's work on Journey Into Mystery. It can be a bit confusing to get the order right because there were a lot of crossovers, but there is an omniubus that puts it all in order. This involves Loki as a child, so it's quite different from what is shown in the show, but is definitely one of the very best things to come out with Loki as the main character, and lays the groundwork for where he's ended up now. It can be read standalone, but if you wanted to continue, after that it leads directly into Gillen's Young Avengers, and then into Al Ewing's Loki: Agent of Asgard, and after that Loki begins appearing off and on in Thor again, as well as appearing here and there across the MU, but the big stuff is mostly in Thor. He had a brief solo recently, but it didn't last long (I suspect because it was going to end up causing problems with Thor, story conflicts) and honestly can pretty much be ignored.

    *edit - oh yeah, and Donny Cates run on Dr Strange is definitely worth getting as well. Kinda hoping Loki gets another chance at the Sorcerer Supreme position when Strange dies later this year. I mean, I am sure they probably already have a plan to bring Strange back, and I think Wanda, Voodoo, or maybe Magik or someone are also very likely candidates, but... still. I think Loki should be in the running, but for real this time.

    for a more villainous take, I like the Lady Loki and Siege Loki from JMS' (and later Gillen again) run, which also kinda led up to the stuff above.

    There are some cool out of continuity stories as well, like Blood Brothers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Really enjoyed this episode. I'm still getting serious X Files vibes from this show, and I'm adoring it.

    So, the alternate Loki's we saw (viking, Hulk, etc).

    The "real" Loki in 2019 wouldn't have recognized a Loki cosplaying as Fox Mulder either. I don't think we should be surprised at the variety here, we're talking about a god who's been alive for thousands of years and has spent most of it causing chaos; there must be a *ton* of moments in Loki's life where a branch could be created if things twist just a little out of shape. And a branch is, by design, a large divergence from the intended path so large divergences in the replicants should be expected.

    I don't think there's any correlation between time passing, as we understand it, and a potential branch breaking away from the sacred timeline. Those variant Loki's could come from any moment in his history. After all, we saw (presumably) a Peggy Carter brought into the TVA at the same time as Loki, but Peggy's been dead for years.
    It's not so much the time passing itself, and i get that some of them could come from the past, (but future is closed of cus Loki dies in the 'sacred timeline') and the Viking Loki probably does, especially if he fills the same role as in the comics. it's that... how do i put this? ok if we operate under the assumption that the photos show the base form and not some illusion or something, and the variant revealed towards the end for that matter, some of these are changes so drastic that there is not a way to reconcile them with the established timeline, which in the MCU is fairly straightforward. Particularly the frost giant looking one, since we know that in the MCU Loki was unaware that he was a frost giant until the first Thor movie. So that one can't have happened in the main timeline, it's impossible. We KNOW he never really embraced his frost giant side in the MCU, so where did that one come from?

    I dunno, I just feel like the TVA is lying about this.
    As for the time keepers and TVA....there's no doubt in my mind that things are not as they seem. I won't really bother hypothesizing on what the deal is but I'm pretty confident in saying that sooner or later, Mobius is gonna find out his whole life is a lie.
    That I agree with, I am not entirely sure how, but clearly the TVA is hiding something. I worry that Mobius may get 'reset' if he finds out the truth though.

    Regarding Cap and Peggy

    I'm not as convinced about that. Steve knew exactly how dangerous screwing with time is. Given everything he had gone through in Endgame, do you really think he'd risk everything just to be a secret hero in the 50's? One who knows that, if he does anything too big, will absolutely cause a branch and potentially damn a entire timeline to unintended consequences? I think Steve is more responsible and intelligent than that, and this was the sacrifice he had to make; in order to retire with Peggy, Steve had to give up Captain America, for real and for good, no matter what.

    Maybe Steve and Peggy were in a branch (and I like the theory that the big bad replicant is from that timeline), but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Actually, I'm not sure if we saw anyone cross branches via the quantum realm at all, did we? We saw the Avengers create the beginnings of some, and Steve likely would've entered those briefly, long enough to return to the stones and put history back on course with the sacred timeline (same as the TVA agents this episode). Thanos caused a branch when he jumped from 2014 to 2023, but he "landed" in the sacred timeline. We know the quantum realm allows travel in the sacred timestream, but could it allow access to completely different, fully formed branches?
    I think the Avengers were working with incomplete/flawed information, so while they thought they were doing the right thing and putting the timeline back in order, they may have just been creating even more branches. Some of the branches could look similar to one another so they just were not aware they were new ones. And no matter how careful Steve thought he was being.... he created a pretty big difference just by being with Peggy.

    I don't think there is one sacred timeline that operates by different rules, and all the others are branches and lesser, there is a SACRED OUTCOME they are working towards, and what is the sacred timeline can actually shift to a newly formed branch, if it brings them closer to that outcome. It isn't that the 'sacred timeline' is somehow special in terms of it being the particular thread that needs to be preserved, it's just that it contains the events that bring them closer to their goal. When the Avengers did their time heist, it's possible the MCU subtly jumped to what was technically a different timeline, we just never noticed because it was exactly the same as the old one aside from the branching point.

    And the branches, i mean, the very act of time travel creates branches, one where you time travel, and one where no time traveler showed up at all, at minimum. particularly if you go with the many-worlds version (the show seems to be using a sort of hybrid model, but still) the you can not actually travel back and forth along one timestream, (except possibly when using the Time Stone in the case of the MCU) you can ONLY time travel by creating new branches. It's just that the point you jump back to is identical to the same point in the past in the universe you traveled from, aside from the fact that you time traveled, so you wouldn't notice that you'd technically traveled to a different timeline, because the time traveler IS the branching point. But the TVA allowed the Avengers to do this, because apparently the Sacred Timeline required it.

    What if these timelines are "branches" in a slightly more literal sense? Bringing Loki back around to the original myths, what if the TVA is pruning Yggdrasil itself? It'd be a fun heroic turn if Loki ends up saving the World Tree, especially considering the amount of pain he's found in its roots.

    If this all leads into incursions and a potential White Event, I'm gonna be pretty gods damned psyched.
    this is possible, if you look at the end credits there is a picture of where the TVA is located, and it is surrounded by 9 circles, which could map to the 9 realms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoruno View Post
    I also think that her existence alone is the proof that other timelines exist. As well as the other Lokis shown, she's a variant from the moment she was born, so there was no split, no stealing an Infinity stone or anything, no "being late to work", no action, just the state.
    right, exactly. If she is as old as Loki, then her timeline has to go back hundreds of years, and it would be very significantly different, especially if Hiddleston's Loki doesn't exist in that timeline. I just can't see how the universe would not hit the splitting threshold in that scenario, we aren't talking an event that doesn't change the future, this is a big change.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-17-2021 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    So, the show has won me over.

    What are the best Loki comics??
    I bought Gillen's run on Journey to Mystery and Agent if Asgard. Comixology was having a sale.

  5. #335
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    So looks like Throg may appear: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/ma...5707#gs.47wr4y

    So I'm thinking... Why stop at one Loki to stop the big bad variant? And maybe a few Loki adjacent character like Throg too. What if they are not arresting President Loki, but recruiting him? Same with variants we haven't seen confirmed yet, but may be likely, such as Kid Loki and the possible other Loki we saw in the President Loki scene wearing a long green coat? It was blurry, he was ducking an attack. But it looked a lot like the Agent of Asgard/current coat, and if it was comic Loki, that would mean there were a minimum of 3 Loki's in that scene, TVA, modern comics, and president. Which means, they aren't being brought in to the TVA, they're forming a team or some kind. And I mean they can't have ALL turned out bad, right? Especially those in alternate timelines that don't get pruned by the TVA. Either ones that have existed before, as speculated above, or new ones just created with the timeline bomb. I mean, in the show's lore, the reason Loki ends up the villain is because the TVA planned it that way, they needed him to set up events in the Avengers favor. But if they lose control, and timelines are created freely... some have to turn out good.

    also, heh:

    Last edited by Raye; 06-18-2021 at 09:39 AM.

  6. #336
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoruno View Post
    I also think that her existence alone is the proof that other timelines exist. As well as the other Lokis shown, she's a variant from the moment she was born, so there was no split, no stealing an Infinity stone or anything, no "being late to work", no action, just the state.
    You may be right, but we have no idea what lady Loki's story is. Loki is a shapeshifter, so lady Loki might not have been a lady until recently.

    We should also consider whether Loki's gender is enough to create a branch. Seems to me that time is always cycling, otherwise we wouldn't see replicants from the past (like Peggy), so if that version of Loki was born female, but otherwise acts as Loki should, does that create a big enough change to branch the timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    It's not so much the time passing itself, and i get that some of them could come from the past, (but future is closed of cus Loki dies in the 'sacred timeline') and the Viking Loki probably does, especially if he fills the same role as in the comics. it's that... how do i put this? ok if we operate under the assumption that the photos show the base form and not some illusion or something, and the variant revealed towards the end for that matter, some of these are changes so drastic that there is not a way to reconcile them with the established timeline, which in the MCU is fairly straightforward. Particularly the frost giant looking one, since we know that in the MCU Loki was unaware that he was a frost giant until the first Thor movie. So that one can't have happened in the main timeline, it's impossible. We KNOW he never really embraced his frost giant side in the MCU, so where did that one come from?
    I don't think we know enough to really say, but some of these changes, while drastic, don't necessarily require a long time to take place. Like the frost giant Loki; in Thor 1 Loki invites the giants into Asgard so they can kill Odin, but Loki betrays and kills them. What if "frost giant" Loki sided with them instead and changed his appearance to fit? Viking Loki could just be what Loki looked like five hundred years ago while playing god on Midgard. Hulk Loki might've discovered his scepter could pull the gamma out of Hulk during the battle of New York, and instead of Loki getting smashed like a puny god, ended up smashing a powerless Banner instead.

    I dunno, I just feel like the TVA is lying about this.
    Almost certainly. But until we know how they're lying and what they're lying about specifically.....

    I think the Avengers were working with incomplete/flawed information, so while they thought they were doing the right thing and putting the timeline back in order, they may have just been creating even more branches. Some of the branches could look similar to one another so they just were not aware they were new ones. And no matter how careful Steve thought he was being.... he created a pretty big difference just by being with Peggy.
    They were definitely working with flawed/incomplete data, the existence of the TVA alone proves that. But you're assuming Steve wasn't meant to go back in time and that created a branch. I'm not convinced of that yet. Peggy's husband has been conspicuous in his absence throughout the films, and if the Avengers were meant to travel through time, Steve may have been meant to be with Peggy as well. We don't know yet. If Steve wasn't meant to be with Peggy the TVA would've reset him within minutes of him walking through her door. So either Steve was in a branch the TVA allowed to exist or he was always meant to have this happy ending in the sacred timeline.

    I don't think there is one sacred timeline that operates by different rules, and all the others are branches and lesser, there is a SACRED OUTCOME they are working towards, and what is the sacred timeline can actually shift to a newly formed branch, if it brings them closer to that outcome.
    Maybe? I dunno though. The TVA cuts down branches before they can become fully formed and cross the "red line." Would the time keepers be able to say "okay, this timeline will get us where we want to go better than that old one" before a branch has fully formed? And since the TVA have to deal with branches in "real time" do the time keepers have the time to chart a branch's trajectory and then send agents to shut it down before its too late?

    And the branches, i mean, the very act of time travel creates branches, one where you time travel, and one where no time traveler showed up at all, at minimum. particularly if you go with the many-worlds version (the show seems to be using a sort of hybrid model, but still) the you can not actually travel back and forth along one timestream, (except possibly when using the Time Stone in the case of the MCU) you can ONLY time travel by creating new branches.
    I think in a way it's sort of like drawing; you can draw a line, then bring your pencil back down the line without creating a new line. Maybe you're right, we haven't heard enough about how this all works to really say, and that's assuming we have reliable sources in the first place. A branch might be created only by "not" time traveling, if the plan was for the time traveling to always happen.

    this is possible, if you look at the end credits there is a picture of where the TVA is located, and it is surrounded by 9 circles, which could map to the 9 realms.
    Yeah that's what brought the theory to mind. If so, I wonder what that does to the belief system and mythology of Asgard? Thor seemed pretty confident in his understanding of the World Tree, but Loki didn't seem to know anything about the branching timelines the TVA deals with, so perhaps the World Tree is reflected in several "layers" of reality and what the TVA is doing is merely involving it's top most levels?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #337
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You may be right, but we have no idea what lady Loki's story is. Loki is a shapeshifter, so lady Loki might not have been a lady until recently.
    But she's not Loki, her name is Sylvie. Everyone just assumed it was Lady Loki, in the same way as happened i the comics, but they were mistaken, and more evidence for that is showing up, as I will post about later. I think, unlike Lady Loki, she was born female, which requires a completely different timeline, that most definitely passed the little threshold the TVA uses.



    I don't think we know enough to really say, but some of these changes, while drastic, don't necessarily require a long time to take place. Like the frost giant Loki; in Thor 1 Loki invites the giants into Asgard so they can kill Odin, but Loki betrays and kills them. What if "frost giant" Loki sided with them instead and changed his appearance to fit? Viking Loki could just be what Loki looked like five hundred years ago while playing god on Midgard. Hulk Loki might've discovered his scepter could pull the gamma out of Hulk during the battle of New York, and instead of Loki getting smashed like a puny god, ended up smashing a powerless Banner instead.
    That still creates a split timeline, though, because that is not what was shown in the movies. Like i said, it's not all about how much time passed, that's just one of the main indicators that there was a split, because what we've seen in the show indicates there is a very small window of time before it splits off, if there is a change that can alter the course of events.

    They were definitely working with flawed/incomplete data, the existence of the TVA alone proves that. But you're assuming Steve wasn't meant to go back in time and that created a branch. I'm not convinced of that yet. Peggy's husband has been conspicuous in his absence throughout the films, and if the Avengers were meant to travel through time, Steve may have been meant to be with Peggy as well. We don't know yet. If Steve wasn't meant to be with Peggy the TVA would've reset him within minutes of him walking through her door. So either Steve was in a branch the TVA allowed to exist or he was always meant to have this happy ending in the sacred timeline.
    Oh, no, i do think Steve was meant to go back. I just think the TVA allowed that timeline to split, because that other timeline was necessary for the 'sacred timeline' they wanted. Him living with Peggy specifically wasn't needed, but he never returned with the shield until after he lived his life, and if that shield was necessary.... But it does still result in a split timeline, and implies they are lying about the existence of a multiverse.

    Maybe? I dunno though. The TVA cuts down branches before they can become fully formed and cross the "red line." Would the time keepers be able to say "okay, this timeline will get us where we want to go better than that old one" before a branch has fully formed? And since the TVA have to deal with branches in "real time" do the time keepers have the time to chart a branch's trajectory and then send agents to shut it down before its too late?
    I think they are working backwards from the end of the universe when deciding what events count, which makes deciding which events should be allowed, and which don't, relatively simple. But again, this is irrelevant if there is a multiverse and they are just lying about that.

    Yeah that's what brought the theory to mind. If so, I wonder what that does to the belief system and mythology of Asgard? Thor seemed pretty confident in his understanding of the World Tree, but Loki didn't seem to know anything about the branching timelines the TVA deals with, so perhaps the World Tree is reflected in several "layers" of reality and what the TVA is doing is merely involving it's top most levels?
    Yeah, I don;t know, but clearly the Asgardians also had some incomplete information. But it makes sense to have an Asgardian learning about it all now, since it might affect them more than most.


    So, this is official merch that confirms the Sylvie identity:




    https://www.zavvi.com/merch-memorabi.../12966406.html

    Also intriguing to me is that the Loki one is the comic design, if it was JUST used as the President Loki crown, i would not expect it to be merch like this, paired with the Sylvie crown, so i am thinking Loki may be getting this crown for realsies, which is cool!

    Also, there has been some unusual messages on the Miss Minutes Twitter the past few days: https://twitter.com/MissMinutesTVA

    Seems to imply the Time Keepers becoming heavily involved due to the timeline bombing, and also it appears Mobius (though referred to as 'Moby') may be facing repercussions for events in last episode.

    I have a sinking feeling the Mobius we've seen so far will be reset, and replaced with a clone, and his love of jet skis and the water rings in Renslayer's office will be the evidence of his erasure.

  8. #338
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    So here's something I came across. You may have already done so as well and de-bunked it, but I wanted to share it.

    What if it's not completely Sylvie Lushton, but is a variant of Loki Laufeyson as perhaps Laufeydottir?

    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  9. #339
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    While I don't have any direct evidence to prove or disprove that, I think what's causing confusion is that people have been trying to map her to a single character in the comics, Lady Loki, or Sylvie Lushton (I've tried to avoid using her last name for this reason) or whoever, but she's actually a brand new character that is just borrowing elements from here and there, a little Sylvie Lushton, a little Loki, a little Amora, maybe even a bit of Leah.

    I just don't like calling her 'Lady Loki' like many people have been doing, because to me, that brings to mind a specific thing from the comics, where Loki, who was born a male, and presents that way most of the time, becomes a woman through one means or another. Not an alternate reality version that has always been a woman and may have a completely different history. It's just completely different situations and i don't really want to have them share a label, it's just leading to a ton of confusion. You see all these videos on Youtube, most of them done by Youtubers whose primary knowledge is the movies and are just using wikis for the comics stuff, posting Lady Loki stuff from the comics, often misunderstanding it, like it will help explain this character on the show, and clearly it won't explain a damn thing, because they are totally different. And now they're doing it with Sylvie Lushton, but again, they are probably different things, especially if she really is Laufey's daughter.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-21-2021 at 09:53 PM.

  10. #340
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    While I don't have any direct evidence to prove or disprove that, I think what's causing confusion is that people have been trying to map her to a single character in the comics, Lady Loki, or Sylvie Lushton (I've tried to avoid using her last name for this reason) or whoever, but she's actually a brand new character that is just borrowing elements from here and there, a little Sylvie Lushton, a little Loki, a little Amora, maybe even a bit of Leah.

    I just don't like calling her 'Lady Loki' like many people have been doing, because to me, that brings to mind a specific thing from the comics, where Loki, who was born a male, and presents that way most of the time, becomes a woman through one means or another. Not an alternate reality version that has always been a woman and may have a completely different history. It's just completely different situations and i don't really want to have them share a label, it's just leading to a ton of confusion. You see all these videos on Youtube, most of them done by Youtubers whose primary knowledge is the movies and are just using wikis for the comics stuff, posting Lady Loki stuff from the comics, often misunderstanding it, like it will help explain this character on the show, and clearly it won't explain a damn thing, because they are totally different. And now they're doing it with Sylvie Lushton, but again, they are probably different things, especially if she really is Laufey's daughter.
    Yeah, I see this as you do. The MCU has been great at blending different aspects of the same character to create their version, and at the same time taking aspects of different characters to create a new one or version of an established character. With Sylvie, even before that image, I was already wondering if she was a amalgam of a few characters and not just one specific character.

    I also agree, that the term 'Lady Loki" doesn't really work as she's not Lady Loki from the comics and not really the female version that Loki switched into. She's an other world version of Loki all her own. I think people in general want a simple and easy answer they can latch on to for their understanding and it makes them feel like they know all about the character and where the character will go without knowing the full story. I'm just along for the ride trying to figure out who she is as more information unfolds.
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  11. #341
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    I also don't like calling her Lady Loki because I'm a little afraid Marvel is gonna take the easy way out by portraying Loki's genderfluidity as an ''alternative timeline'' thing, but I'm also not convinced she was inspired by Sylvie Lushton so far. I was looking at the special thanks for episode 2, and it was updated to add Steve Englehart, the co-creator of Roxxon, as well as J. Michael Straczynski and Olivier Coipel, creators of OG Lady Loki. I would imagine Paul Cornell and Mark Brooks, the creators of Sylvie as Enchantress, would be there if she was directly inspired by the character. Although maybe they will add their names later on when they explain her name on the show, but so far, that indicates they are leaning more towards a version of Lady Loki, even if she turns out to be very different from the comics. I wouldn't exactly call her an amalgam if the only thing she has in common with one of the characters is a name, which is not even an uncommon one.

  12. #342
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's another aspect too. But to be fair, it is not like they can just.... erase the past Lady Loki stuff, or at least not without jumping through some serious hoops, that's all still there on the page and part of Loki's character. And at least they did put 'fluid' on Loki's booking form, which seemed to prompt a good response, even though it really should not have come as any surprise.

    And yeah, they may just be waiting until her name is revealed to thank the Sylvie Lushton creators, since technically her name wasn't technically supposed to be revealed yet, that's all come through leaks, or in the case of the incident report, looking reeeeeeeeeally close at a detail that would have likely gone completely unnoticed by most. I do think there's likely a bit more Enchantress in her (be it Sylvie or Amora) simply due to the blonde hair.

    And 'amalgam' may not be the right word, but still, the point still stands it's becoming increasingly clear she can't be mapped to one particular character, or incarnation of Loki, from the comics. Not unusual for the movies to take liberties with the adaptations, the main MCU Loki took several, so not a surprise to me, but it felt like people were expecting just straight up Lady Loki as soon as they saw that one set photo, even though she had blonde hair, and it's always struck me as odd.

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    I thought Loki's time as Kid Loki in Journey to Mystery was pretty fun.

  14. #344
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Well, until the end anyway. then it's time for crying.

    I loved JIM, one of my favorite Marvel comics ever, and though I love the current incarnation, and enjoy following his continued development, yeah, it is still my fave Loki story.

  15. #345
    Spectacular Member Yoruno's Avatar
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    So, MCU Loki is bi, confirmed (c'mon, what did you expect?) Any news about Marvel's Voices issue?

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