Loki Appreciation 2021

[Raye]

My thought was that if you wanted to bring in Sigyn after literally 25 years of absence and only 18 total appearance in nearly 60 years of publication, the real opportunity to do so is to make her address that, at least a little. Out of universe, she has been missing, so sure seems like in-universe, she's been missing. And the reintroduction of the Venom Prison also lends itself to a Sigyn reintroduction, if they wanted to go that direction. And out of everyone in the Marvel Universe that could help someone who was stuck in a hole and ignored for years get revenge on the person who left her there? Blake hates Loki most.

I just have trouble picturing that fitting with her previous characterization, she'd always been, well, kind of a doormat, and not really the vindictive sort. But, yeah, I have doubts it will actually happen, there's too many hoops to jump through at this point, just to get the pieces in place to tell the story.

I *really* like the observation that the "God of Lies" title is as much or more the prison as the snake and cave are. And it's a prison Loki is, in some ways (see Thor's ask of him in the latest issue) still trying to escape.

thanks! and yeah, I don't think Loki saw the prison at first, because he liked his role. But Loki's been trying to escape it since JIM.... I mean, at first his intentions were not great, but still. He at least recognized back then that it was something he was trapped in, and would require some creative measures to escape. which failed. and then failed again. and again. Until fate finally let him go, because this giant pantheon wide switch started. The roles, or at least this particular one, seem to not like letting go before it's time to do the big switch. Hell, Cul ended up kinda still trapped in even after Loki had taken over. But, it should be noted, only re-emerged when Kid Loki was on the scene. kind of a Jane-Thor situation in a way, a temp fillin while the main role holder was temporarily sidelined, so it still works. but still, he was trapped all that time. But yeah, Blake's probably good and trapped until either the next role switch, or they dismantle the system, which is a possibility. (...or until the next writer undoes everything but I hope that won't happen)

One interesting thing is that Loki started scheming...but Throg had his own scheme. Throg set it all up before Loki and Thor even thought about it. So what did Loki plan? And will getting "showed up" cause him to re-evaluate? Like he clearly denied Thor trying to make him a spy...and then immediate fell into his old habit of scheming.

It may depend on how well Throg does. If things go bad for him, and it sure sounds like it might, from upcoming solicits where this 'God of Hamers' seems to be kicking everyone's ass, then he may not see it as getting showed up at all. He may have to step in to show these amateurs how it's done. But sounds like a spy won't be necessary for long, since it sounds as though Mjolnir and the God of Hammers make their location very well known, but it still may call for some tricksy tactics. From the most recent solicit:

""GOD OF HAMMERS" PART 3 of 5
Thor has been beaten down, and the God of Hammers is about to make the final blow! Is this the end of the All-Father? Prophecies do come true, after all…but not always in the ways they are foreseen. For there is one last chance to save Thor — but at what cost?! Plus: The shocking origin of the mysterious God of Hammers is revealed!"

Sounds like the key to winning may be exploiting some technicality of this prophecy, which seems a Loki kinda thing, he's real good at finding loopholes. But it's hard to say much else without knowing exactly what this prophecy says.

Loki is also still in keeping with his post-JIM core in violently reacting to any suggestion that he is still the pre-JIM Loki (which he is...a little. The denial and the truth keeps him from truly accepting it, even though he keeps having that revelation and seems to accept it). He also continues to deny his own ability to truly step out of that role. He could have reacted to Thor's request with a "Yes, I'll help, but not as a spy. Let your allies know I'm coming and on your side and I'll lead this investigation from the light." Instead he was mad that Thor was lying and trying to shove him back into the darkness.

TL;DR: I think their reactions are still in keeping with their long-standing cores, despite the roles shifting.

Yeah, a more succinct way of saying what I was trying to say. but Cates always puts a ton of emphasis on character motivations, he may dress it all up in a lot of cosmic badassery, chains, and giant swords, but his stories are always extremely character focused. He loves picking apart at what makes a character tick, what they really want deep down, and following that thread, and usually resolving things in a way that's symbolically relevant. So I think figuring out what he's putting down as their motivations will end up very relevant to the story.

I think Loki's repeated acceptance and then denial of his old self still contributing to his makeup is rooted in that face he wants to project. I think he knows and on one level accepts he's still a sneaky clever bastard, but the image he wants to project is one of a person who has changed, so he can't have his old self included in that image. Like, look at Cates' Dr Strange, that fits right in. The plot goal was finding that spell and fixing magic, but I think he went about it in the way he did, stealing the Sorcerer Supreme title, because that position gave him a way to project the image he wanted... The Sorcerer Supreme position comes with a set of responsibilities and a sort of built in image that he could just step into, and get what he REALLY wanted. Even though he accomplished that through deceptive means. But now, he seems to want want a chance to omit the sneaky deceptive step, he wants it legit, he wants to BE what he wants to project, rather than cheating for it. I think he has to realize that he can still include bits of his old self and still come across as a changed person. And just because wants to project an image doesn't mean it's for a bad purpose. I think he wants to project that for his own sake as well, as a sort of ideal to strive for. I think everyone does that, to some degree, we try to hide our flaws and push forward the good bits. I think Loki has to realize though that he may have labeled some things as flaws that actually aren't. Just because his old bad guy self relied on plots and cleverness a whole lot doesn't make those bad tactics... They are only bad when used to hurt others. and i guess i argued myself in a circle, there, arguing for more of his past self to come back. But I still stand by what I said, that we have to be prepared to allow him to actually change. some aspects coming back doesn't mean it will be to the same extent. I think he has to find a balance between his old self and this ideal self he wants everyone to see.

But really the more I think about it, with both Thor and Loki, the story is really about that image we want people to see, and who we really are underneath that, and trying to find a way to reconcile that and make the two match.

[Karabaja]

I found the interaction between Thor and Loki just...what's the word? Cute. Screw me, but I can't help it. The fact that a) Thor clearly trusts him, after all the **** that went between them; b) Thor knows him so well, he clearly expected him to refuse at first, and knew exactly how to get him to accept, without being maliciously manipulative; c) Loki is trying to find balance between his responsibilities and the things he enjoys (and what would Loki be without scheming and plotting?)
The idea of animavengers is another heartwarming thing that I loved. Huginn and Muninn deserve more prominent roles; they have been hinted to be much more than supernatural couriers, and it's time to show it.

[Raye]

I'd like to see it that way, but I can't shake the feeling that Thor was just using Loki. :-/ I mean, first you had the whole chuck a hammer at Loki's head for no reason thing, (well, not a good reason anyway. Loki was just asking about Thor's life and hit a bit too close to the insecurities Thor wanted to pretend he didn't have. But that's not Loki's fault, he said nothing out of line. tho yes, the past complicates things) then all of a sudden he's apparently fine with Loki.... but needed his help. Then again here, he also needs Loki's help. I want them to be friends, and I get that asking for help isn't a bad thing on it's own, and to be fair, he did also attack Bill and Sif, but it just feels to me like Thor's still primarily thinking about Loki less as his brother/friend and more of a tool. I'd kind of expect that from Loki, to be honest, but it's a bit sad to have it coming from Thor. Though honestly, neither of them dealt with this particular conversation as well as they could have. Loki was kinda being passive aggressive, and, as Fanto.mx said, could have just told Thor he'd help, but not in the way he wanted, or something. I think they both still have some baggage to sort out, basically.

But I do have hopes they'll be on better terms soon, I just don't think they're quite there yet, I think they're both kinda being dicks, just in subtle ways. It is still an improvement over the past, to be fair. But I really want them to be on good terms, and help each other without having to resort to manipulation to get that help, and just... have fun together, because the times they've worked together they've shown they're actually a pretty good team, that makes up for each other's weaknesses.

oh! edited to add - unrelated, but something dawned on me the other day. You notice that recently, Loki's fancy staff has gone missing? He had that staff that showed up in the beginning of Aaron's run, and it was really cool looking (though hard to draw) and that statue, toy, and some game costumes even had it. But towards the end of Aaron's run it just.... kinda went away? Like, it didn't have a name, or special powers or anything, at least not that we were made aware of, so it wasn't as special as Mjolnir or Gram, but it was still pretty distinctive. I'm kinda wondering if it went away to make Loki seem like he had no weapon, and maybe make it seem like he could use a new one? just a thought.

[Karabaja]

Well, Thor did manipulate Loki, no doubt. But Loki was certainly aware of that, and didn't seem to mind it one bit. If anything, I bet he would have told Thor he was impressed, if the conversation had been continued. I doubt they'd ever have a perfectly healthy, open kind of communication, boy scout style. It's simply not in the nature of their relationship, even when it's on its most peaceful and conflict-less. But it doesn't mean it's malicious. They enjoy their dance, always trying to outwit one another, this time thankfully in good sport, and it's a part of their relationship's appeal, at least to me. They'd be quite dull if they just...got smoothly and predictably along, nothing to keep an eye out for. Don't get me wrong; I want them to be on good terms, I want them to love one another. But I also love them butting heads, preferably in a non-lethal way.

[Raye]

Yeah, I mean I think Loki enjoyed coming up with a plan, just cus that's something he enjoys in general, and once you get him going with something like that, he'll have a good time. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't think Thor did it for anything other than self serving reasons. I really am not getting the impression any of this was because Thor cared about Loki at all, especially if you pair it with the chuck a hammer at his head scene from earlier to give more context. I mean the fact that he had a rehearsed spiel that he used on both Loki and Throg (tho neither one of them let him finish it the way he wanted) just illustrated that it wasn't really directed at Loki specifically, or because he knew him well enough to say just the right thing, or part of some kind of friendly game between them, or he would have said something more tailored to Loki specifically, not some standard boiler plate he'll use on anyone he thinks can help. It was more about him getting what he needed rather than any sort of personal connection with either of them, i felt. It's weird, Loki and Thor kinda swapped places, to where Thor is the one manipulating people into doing what he wants them to, and Loki's one of the ones being manipulated. Like, i kinda get it, because as king Thor does need to delegate tasks to other people, so in that sense, this is good, (though i would expect a king to be less manipulative) and unlike old school Loki when he pulled this stuff, he's not doing any of this for malicious reasons.... but they're still reasons that have him ending up treating his family and friends as pawns. But, king, so i mean, that is something he's going to have to do, to an extent, especially if Loki does end up taking his old job, I just would have hoped friends and family would be given some more personal consideration, and i want to see Thor and Loki interact in ways that go beyond what Loki can do for Thor. I don't mind them butting heads, I just would prefer it be over things like, they disagree over a course of action, general sibling bickering, or something like that, which didn't have either of them showing a disregard for the other.

So I noticed something today, while looking up solicits for future issues.... the Thor legacy number 750 is coming up soonish. Personally, I don't give a **** about legacy numbering, and in Thor's case is particularly pointless because it includes a bunch of issues he never even appeared in due to Thor inheriting JIM's numbering, rendering it kind of meaningless, BUT... Marvel does make a big deal of issues that fall every 50 issues on the legacy numbering. If it ends in 00 or 50, it will probably be an extra sized issue, and more than likely have something pretty big happen. What's potentially interesting for Issue "750" is that it lands directly after the God of Hammers arc, on what will be regular issue number 24. I mean... I'm just saying, this whole timing thing is lining up more and more to have something MAJOR happen after this arc. There's that, plus the fact that JIM first debuted in 1952, Thor first appeared in JIM in 1962, so either way, 2022 is an anniversary year, PLUS "750" happening right after this God of Hammers arc... I'm just saying, it feels like having the new 'champion' be declared in that issue, and then a JIM relaunch right after would fit really well.

[Raye]

Just wanted to say, if you think it was a cute interaction, great, I didn't mean to be a wet blanket. I was just trying to explain why I couldn't really see it that way, despite wanting Loki and Thor to be friends. But I do still have hope they can get there, I just think both of them, but especially Thor for once, have some dickish behaviours/feelings to address first.

I think there's a combo of things going on from both of them, each one kind of subtle but it builds on top of other things to create a complicated and toxic mix. Loki's old past is coming back to bite him in the ass, by making Thor act badly towards him in not unreasonable ways, but because Loki's actually genuine this time, it's frustrating.

And just to be clear, i don't think anyone is being unreasonable here, it's just consequences of past actions, mostly Loki's to be fair, building. There's Thor not seeing Loki's recent change of heart as entirely genuine, and still thinking of him the way he used to be. Which to be fair isn't unreasonable, Loki has a history of both deception and squandering second chances. Loki still needs to prove himself, he has a lot to make up for considering his history, and even recently, his tactics that had him playing the baddie, and using some rather questionable methods, even though trying to accomplish some good things. And Loki is perceptive enough to pick up on this, and be pissed off about it, even if it's his own fault. I think he needs to realize he does have to work extra hard to change perceptions, due to an extra bad past, which was mostly Loki's fault, and there are no shortcuts here. And I think he does know that, even if he would prefer things be easier, but he needs opportunities to prove himself. Problem is, he's not getting them, because Thor seems to want him to be his old self, and is not giving Loki those chances as a result, so they're kind of stuck. Sure, Thor is giving Loki opportunities to help him, yeah, but he wants Loki to use his old methods, which Loki doesn't want to use any more, and Thor keeps asking even after Loki tells him this. Which also ties into Thor seeming to only want Loki around when Loki can be useful to him, rather than seeming to just value Loki's presence for it's own sake. Which is something i think Loki wants, hence his attempt at inquiring about how Thor was doing in issue 1, and him checking on Thor in issue 15. But Thor hasn't done the same in return. Instead he threatens Loki and tells him to never enter Asgard unless invited, and then only invites him when he needs something done, or when forbidding his presence would be... awkward. Like he couldn't reasonably exclude Loki from the celebratory feast after he saved Thor from Blake's pocket dimension. And again, this isn't unjustified. For one, he is now king, so he is going to need people to do things for him on an official basis, that's part of the job. But also, why would he want the company of someone who has hurt him? Thor's tended to have a soft spot for Loki, but still. And also, this is something Loki has done a LOT, he has had a tendency to view everyone around him as some sort of game piece to be used in one of his plots. Hell, that's how he's (and Thor, to be fair) seeing Throg right now. That Throg seems eager to help doesn't change that. So I think they need some quality time where there are no expectations from each other, to remind themselves that they just... like each other, despite everything. This may need to be forced on them in some way, due to all the baggage. But I don't think Thor wants it right now, while Loki does want it, which is awkward. And of course Thor is having a lot of insecurities about his new role as King, which is making him more on edge and aggressive, which definitely is not helping. But to be fair, that part seems to be being addressed right now.

so yeah. things be complicated, but I think it can be overcome, and I have hopes it will be. If Loki is Thor's successor in his old role, that will give him a lot of opportunities to prove himself, and that could have a domino effect to address a lot of this baggage, but he has to follow through and not squander the chance again. But he will still have a hard time because I am sure a lot of characters (and readers) will think it is another trick, like the Sorcerer Supreme situation. I hope it's not, but that's what a lot of people will think. So he's got a lot to prove. Also, getting a meta vibe here, where Thor is kind of the standin for readers perceptions of Loki. Where even if they accept the face turn as genuine, there's this expectation that he can't begin to act too differently, or it won't feel in character, that it will remove traits people like, and you can't do that. And this goes for other characters too, but Loki's getting it bad, due to how large the change was. But you can see it all over the current books right now with Thor, too. Books all over the place are flat out ignoring events and character development to do with Thor in his own book, because it's just expected that Thor show up with the Avengers and yell 'have at thee!' at the baddie of the day and whack em upside the head with his hammer. That's just what is expected of Thor, so he does that, all over the place, even as it contradicts events in Thor's book. And it happens with lots of other characters too. Which has led Loki, and some other characters, to this spot where he's stuck in this weird limbo of having had internal character growth, but is still being expected to act like his old self. And that's not too different from how Thor is treating him.

[Fanto.mx]

I tend to agree (but also am not here to yuck your yum if you thought it was cute!). I see this whole story so far as a sort of meditation on how dysfunction tends to perpetuate itself across generations. I feel like that's why Odin's off brewing beer in the back room of a dive bar (I think that was in the Beta Ray Bill series) and Frigga is half feral, riding a machine gun cat. And we learned in Aaron's run that Bor was...not the greatest...in many of the same ways that Odin was.

I know we've talked a lot about the roles shifting, but my big perspective here is that I think this is about how titles and roles not only shift between characters, but should change when they do. Thor's big goal right now is to somehow live up to Odin and his way of ruling, but Thor is not Odin. Thor is Thor, and right now Thor (and some others) see that as a bad thing. I keep thinking about the unrelated but pertinent scene in Endgame where Thor and Frigga are talking and she says:

"Everyone fails at who they're supposed to be, Thor. The measure of a person, of a hero, is how well they succeed at being who they are."

Endgame Thor and comics Thor are in very similar places, and have reacted in similar ways. First Thor goes full bore warrior because it's what he knows and what he knows he's good at, and finds reasons to fly off and smash things. Then he finds out that he's not measuring up in whole new ways that he didn't anticipate and goes all mopey destructive. And then "maybe I can fix it." But I think they will diverge greatly right there, since comics have the space to make him figuring out to be King Thor, rather than King of Asgard, and the MCU needs to set up the next funny smash-em-up. (Movie Asgard was also running itself by that time, having had 5 years of Thor not ruling, where comics Asgard are still looking to him and pushing him to be a proper king.)

So yeah, I see dysfunction in that scene between Thor and Loki, as they both fail to see each other as truly changed and as they both struggle -- in completely different ways -- to be who they need to be. I think as Cates moves forward, we will see them both realize their cores again, even as they take one completely new tasks. They will change the roles to suit them where they can and learn to change themselves where they can't change the roles. And it will be interesting to see which things are responsibilities baked into the roles (I'm thinking the magic weaving as All-Father probably isn't overly negotiable, and it feels likely that a magic weapon is innate to the Champion role) and which are cutting the ends off the roast.

[Raye]

I tend to agree (but also am not here to yuck your yum if you thought it was cute!). I see this whole story so far as a sort of meditation on how dysfunction tends to perpetuate itself across generations. I feel like that's why Odin's off brewing beer in the back room of a dive bar (I think that was in the Beta Ray Bill series) and Frigga is half feral, riding a machine gun cat. And we learned in Aaron's run that Bor was...not the greatest...in many of the same ways that Odin was.

I know we've talked a lot about the roles shifting, but my big perspective here is that I think this is about how titles and roles not only shift between characters, but should change when they do. Thor's big goal right now is to somehow live up to Odin and his way of ruling, but Thor is not Odin. Thor is Thor, and right now Thor (and some others) see that as a bad thing. I keep thinking about the unrelated but pertinent scene in Endgame where Thor and Frigga are talking and she says:

Love that quote. and yeah, I keep saying, I think the roles need to update for each new generation, otherwise that cycle of dysfunction can never end. And why would there be a need for this big pantheon wide shift, if things just end up exactly the same aside from the names of the players? Which is why I am not too concerned with the fact that Loki is not much like Thor, when i say I think he's going to inherit that role. I don't think the role change requires that he be exactly like Thor was, or Thor be exactly like Odin was, as long as the broad strokes remain intact. And I think those strokes are VERY broad. Both of them can very much be their own person while still filling the roles. But that doesn't mean they won't have to change at all, the roles still come with responsibilities that can't be fulfilled without some changes. But those changes don't necessarily mean 'become more like your predecessor', even though I can easily see how their first instinct would be to try and do that. And they may need to have the story/fate smack em around a bit to show them why they don't have to be. Their predecessor (Odin mainly) may have made mistakes that will only get repeated if their successor tries to be just like them, or, as is more the case with Thor and Loki, the world may have changed, necessitating that the role be adapted to those changes. A warrior was needed when Thor took on the role in in the early middle ages, when violence was a more common part of life. Nowadays not so much.

Endgame Thor and comics Thor are in very similar places, and have reacted in similar ways. First Thor goes full bore warrior because it's what he knows and what he knows he's good at, and finds reasons to fly off and smash things. Then he finds out that he's not measuring up in whole new ways that he didn't anticipate and goes all mopey destructive. And then "maybe I can fix it." But I think they will diverge greatly right there, since comics have the space to make him figuring out to be King Thor, rather than King of Asgard, and the MCU needs to set up the next funny smash-em-up. (Movie Asgard was also running itself by that time, having had 5 years of Thor not ruling, where comics Asgard are still looking to him and pushing him to be a proper king.)

so, sitting here, listening to Mastodon's latest treatise on grief (their albums are often how they process loss and pay tribute to the loss of loved ones, and this one is no different, it is dedicated to their late friend and band manager.) and... you do realize you just outlined that Thor is going through the stages of grief, right? Still trying to fulfill his old role rather than properly doing his duties as king = denial, lashing out when that backffires = anger, and now he's at 'bargaining' as he tries to fix things. It never quite clicked for me until you laid it out the way you did, but it fits perfectly, and it would not at all surprise me if it was deliberate. Grief doesn't have to be about the loss of a loved one, it can also be, as it is in Thor's case, about saying goodbye to a stage of your life that you have to let go of. Or a stage of life in someone elses life, in terms of how he's relating to Loki, he's still at denial there. So, if he is at bargaining right now, when it comes to his own life, then stands to reason that in coming months we will see depression and then acceptance. (well, already seen a bit of these. as the page notes, the stages are not exactly linear, they often blur together, but I think these are not resolved yet for Thor) I could totally see a new wave of depression coming when he sees his successor take his place, and feels like he is missing out as they have all these experiences and adventures that he wishes he could be at the center of. And then acceptance, as he finds things in his new role that he enjoys, and finds new fulfillment in it.

So yeah, I see dysfunction in that scene between Thor and Loki, as they both fail to see each other as truly changed and as they both struggle -- in completely different ways -- to be who they need to be. I think as Cates moves forward, we will see them both realize their cores again, even as they take one completely new tasks. They will change the roles to suit them where they can and learn to change themselves where they can't change the roles. And it will be interesting to see which things are responsibilities baked into the roles (I'm thinking the magic weaving as All-Father probably isn't overly negotiable, and it feels likely that a magic weapon is innate to the Champion role) and which are cutting the ends off the roast.

Yeah, I think, as i was saying above, they will both need to change some things about themselves, and discover they don't have to in other areas. It's just a matter of figuring out what that balance is. Some things are almost certainly just straight up baked into the roles, like the magic weapon as you said, that seems to be a constant. Sigurd had Gram, Thor and Odin both used Mjolnir, so I do think Loki will have a magic weapon too. will it be Mjolnir? it might, but Gram shows that it doesn't necessarily have to be. If it is though, i suspect it will be changed somehow, in order to circumvent this 'god of hammers' prophecy. Whether that means just the enchantment on it, or it's form as well, so that it's re-forged into something other than a hammer, like a sword or a staff... or maybe a spear, Thor described the role in terms of the tip of a spear. But Loki described it as a sword. We'll see. And yeah, Thor may need a crash course in magic, to keep the magics of Asgard in order.... OR.... that may be one of the changes to the 'champion' role, to do that part FOR him. Like if you've been following Dr Strange, and the aftermath of his death, you can see that the Sorcerer Supreme basically filled this role for Earth (well, technically that entire dimension, but it's often treated as more of an 'Earth' thing). Strange, and those before him, maintained the magic wards that kept at least some nasties at bay, and the dissolution of those wards is BAD. Asgard has similar wards, and they were maintained by Odin. Now, Thor's not good at magic, so he can't really do those wards, and magic in Asgard is beginning to break down because of that. That doesn't mean he can't be a good king in other ways, but SOMEONE has to handle the magical defenses and other general magic.... stuff. Why does Thor need to learn magic, when Loki, one of the most powerful sorcerers in the MU, who has already proven he can fill the same role, on Earth, is RIGHT THERE? Loki may have problems with being asked to lie and stuff, but magic? 'Loki, Asgard's magical wards are breaking down, we need someone to maintain them' he'd be fine with that, and unlike this past issue where Thor told Loki he was the only one he could trust with the task, when that wasn't really the case, it would actually be true here, he really is one of the very few people equipped to deal with Asgard's magic problems. And bam, there you go, that would have him defending the realm, in his own way. That's the Champion role in a nutshell, is it not? The role isn't hitting stuff with a hammer, it's defending both Asgard and Midgard from threats. how that's accomplished is irrelevant. (well, to an extent, i think it still needs to be done in an honorable way)

In any case, I do think they will both realize they don't have to toss out EVERYTHING about their old selves. Some of those old things will probably end up helping to move things forward. But I don't think we can just expect them to act just like their old selves, either, as comforting and familiar as that may be.

When they figure all this out, I think it will have the side effect of addressing some of this dysfunction between them. Help them both see each other for who they are now, rather than who they used to be, and hopefully find some new and healthier ways to connect

[Fanto.mx]

so, sitting here, listening to Mastodon's latest treatise on grief (their albums are often how they process loss and pay tribute to the loss of loved ones, and this one is no different, it is dedicated to their late friend and band manager.) and... you do realize you just outlined that Thor is going through the stages of grief, right? Still trying to fulfill his old role rather than properly doing his duties as king = denial, lashing out when that backffires = anger, and now he's at 'bargaining' as he tries to fix things. It never quite clicked for me until you laid it out the way you did, but it fits perfectly, and it would not at all surprise me if it was deliberate. Grief doesn't have to be about the loss of a loved one, it can also be, as it is in Thor's case, about saying goodbye to a stage of your life that you have to let go of. Or a stage of life in someone elses life, in terms of how he's relating to Loki, he's still at denial there. So, if he is at bargaining right now, when it comes to his own life, then stands to reason that in coming months we will see depression and then acceptance. (well, already seen a bit of these. as the page notes, the stages are not exactly linear, they often blur together, but I think these are not resolved yet for Thor) I could totally see a new wave of depression coming when he sees his successor take his place, and feels like he is missing out as they have all these experiences and adventures that he wishes he could be at the center of. And then acceptance, as he finds things in his new role that he enjoys, and finds new fulfillment in it.

I hadn't thought of it that way until you pointed it out. I was trying to think of what he was mourning and wrote this sentence like five times before realizing I kind of have an answer that we've been talking about all along: The good old days. We've talked a lot about how the roles are rather conservative by nature, a sort of fate-driven inertia.

In any case, I do think they will both realize they don't have to toss out EVERYTHING about their old selves. Some of those old things will probably end up helping to move things forward. But I don't think we can just expect them to act just like their old selves, either, as comforting and familiar as that may be.

When they figure all this out, I think it will have the side effect of addressing some of this dysfunction between them. Help them both see each other for who they are now, rather than who they used to be, and hopefully find some new and healthier ways to connect

And if this story is about accepting change within and without like we're supposing, the object of mourning being the comfortable fiction of nostalgia makes perfect sense. (And that gets meta like your previous post.)

When you look at Prey through this lens, it fits like a glove. There were no good old days. There never was. You can accept that or it can break you.

[Raye]

I hadn't thought of it that way until you pointed it out. I was trying to think of what he was mourning and wrote this sentence like five times before realizing I kind of have an answer that we've been talking about all along: The good old days. We've talked a lot about how the roles are rather conservative by nature, a sort of fate-driven inertia.


And if this story is about accepting change within and without like we're supposing, the object of mourning being the comfortable fiction of nostalgia makes perfect sense. (And that gets meta like your previous post.)

When you look at Prey through this lens, it fits like a glove. There were no good old days. There never was. You can accept that or it can break you.

I mean, when i made that playlist, I started off Prey with 1979 for a reason, it is one of the best songs about nostalgia i could think of, plus it's from the 90s, which is my personal nostalgia zone, at least for music. Whole thing is definitely based on Thor's sense of nostalgia. I hadn't quite thought of nostalgia as a type of grieving, but i guess it kinda is. And as you mention, I think the past Thor is mourning the loss of is at least partly fiction. Like, this ideal he's trying to live up to as king... he's trying to be like Odin, but a highly idealized version of him that never quite existed. I think he's so angry towards Odin in this run, because Odin's presence spoils his idealized vision of him. Like, he shows up first because in Prey, it's revealed he had actually made a colossal mistake as king. So his presence is a reminder to Thor that this ideal he's trying to live up to never actually existed. Odin failing to be a good father, good husband, good king, isn't just disappointing, it's a threat to his view of the past.

Speaking of the playlist tho, after listening to that Mastodon album, i realized that due to the themes of grief, it fit like the whole run SO well, so I went back and added The Beast into the Prey section, and used More Than I Could Chew to kick off the playlist for the most recent issues; the Revelations mini-arc and the Throg issue. So if you click that link, that will start that part of the playlist, it goes until Dragonforce's Through the Fire and Flames. Related to the above, I used Nirvana's Serve the Servants before i even saw your post, and it's all about disillusionment with his father, which is why I picked it, so yeah... I think a lot of these thoughts have been bubbling in my brain under the surface but hadn't quite made themselves explicit in my mind. Got to use a few songs I really liked, and had been waiting for a chance to use, relevant to this thread, got to use this for Loki, finally. Had been waiting for the right moment, and it finally came:



Also used Rainbow in the Dark for Loki, seemed appropriate. and I got to use The Hu! Never thought I'd get to use them, but Pet Avengers changed that.

anyway, yeah, the playlist is on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...l6bNYuxpaJ68vx but the bottom chunk is like, stuff i am keeping in mind for later, you kinda have to stop at Dragonforce as mentioned, the rest may or may not be used in the future. it also starts at the end of WotR, and then does Loki's solo before starting Cates' run.

The playlist is available on Spotify here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6L...a68100ba0a44d7 And it is only Cates' run, and doesn't contain all the extra stuff at the end.

Anyway, i need to share some awesome Loki Halloween costumes I saw on reddit. These are very important:


https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/comment...lligator_loki/


https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen...d_as_loki_for/

[Raye]

*pokes thread*

so we finally have an Alligator Loki plush!


https://www.shopdisney.com/alligator...341904594.html

But he's like $55 USD. But he's pretty big, so.... But he is also currently sold out, so it's kinda a moot point at the moment (but may be back, who knows) I think it's cool tho, even if i can't get one.

Also, solicits and stuff came out the other day, but saw no sign of Loki. However, a couple of his absences, though initially a little disappointing, could be leading to interesting things in the future, or at least show the status quo in Thor is finally starting to leak out to the wider MU. First off, he's not on the cover for Thor, with a group of heroes apparently facing off against this 'God of Hammers' which was a little disappointing at first. I mean it's got Wolverine and the Avengers, and Angela... Even Strange, even though that makes no sense, so no Loki was a bit disappointing. But thinking on it, i realize it is the penultimate issue of the arc, and if the hammer/title is passed off during the arc, it will be the final issue, not this one. But also, then I realized who else was missing, that could play a part in this arc, some of whom already have, appeared. Jane, Sif, Freyja, Odin (not that I think Thor would want him there, but he seems to have a part in the arc), Balder.... One thing most of the characters (minus Odin) have in common is that they have already laid claim to new roles. Jane is now a Valkyrie, Sif is now the guardian of the Bifrost, Freyja is the God of the Hunt, Balder is the King of the Norns... so I'm thinking... that group there on the cover? that represents the old ways. Like, not completely, Thor himself is there, though his larger arc throughout Cates run has been his resistance to change, so... And the Pet Avengers (who might be the new Warriors 3) are there, a well as Angela, who gave up her old role, but I don't think has quite stepped into her new one (still thinking she's the new War god) but... overall. So it may be that the old ways have to get beaten down, and the people who have new roles, or at least are looking for one, end up saving things in the end, symbolic of the new overtaking the old. I know i am reaching a bit there, but... just saying I don't think this means it's another case of Loki showing up in the beginning and then vanishing again.

Also, looks like they are FINALLY removing Thor from the Avengers.... and replacing him with Jane. It's a bit late, but good that the Avengers is finally on the same page as the Thor comic as far as Thor's Avengering status goes. There have clearly been communication issues at Marvel when it comes to getting things to line up properly recently, there are a lot of impossible situations arising, (see: Dr Strange appearing in Thor when he should be dead, or Thor appearing in Death of Dr Strange with Mjolnir, as mentioned earlier) which has been frustrating, as a reader, and I am sure it must be frustrating to Cates as well, to see his book just being flatly ignored. So it's good to see that at the very least, this wrinkle is being ironed out, and I hope to see less of Thor with Mjolnir in hand showing up all over the damn place, and have the status quo in Thor's book actually be reflected in the rest of the books. It was getting long past the point where Thor's presence on the Avengers while supposedly being off the team, and lacking Mjolnir, in his own book could be chalked up to the Avengers running a bit behind compared to Thor. As for Jane... like i am not surprised that Aaron would want to make a place for her, he clearly has a soft spot for her. And I haven't been a big fan of his Avengers, so in that way I'm not disappointed it's not Loki.... but I also think him joining the Avengers would be important on a sort of symbolic level, not to mention Aaron himself kinda teased that waaaay back. Tho he probably intended that it happen shortly after WotR, but Cates' plans drew things out longer, to be fair. Maybe Jane is just a temporary Asgardian replacement till things get fully sorted out with Loki.

Oh yeah, and on the subject of continuity errors, I thought this was a cool explanation for the Mjolnir flub last issue: https://screenrant.com/thor-continui...lained-comics/

Also, not necessarily related to Loki/Thor but could be... So Hulk has been a bit confusing to figure out what it was going to be, I had faith that Cates would not just toss everything Ewing had done, but on the surface it appeared to be a back to basics thing.... in space. Or the multiverse, it turns out, judging by the new solicit. It seems Hulk is maybe cruising around in ... a Shift Ship?? It could make sense, since the Superflow and the Bleed are sorta-kinda confirmed to be one and the same, (Hickman was the one who made the most use of it Marvel-side, even tho Ellis introduced it, and at one point during the leadup to Secret Wars, it is referred to as The Bleed. Probably a slip up, but still, betrays the fact that they considered them the same thing with different names) so Marvel by all rights should have Shift Ships as well, (I think there's even some reference to them, though I would have to double check, even if we have not seen them yet, and/or they can not call them that for legal reasons) Tho Shift Ships require ENORMOUS amounts of energy, the Carrier was powered by a baby universe, but for Hulk, I'm kinda thinking Gamma somethingorother... (that all may make absolutely no sense if you have not read The Authority and/or Planetary, or maybe Multiversity, but... too much to get into here.) But Cates said on some podcast that it would be like Breaking Bad for Banner, which intrigued me, tho it didn't seem to line up with the smashy smashy adventures in space vibe of the first 3 issues solicits. But I did suspect there was going to be a lot more to it than Hulk Smash..... in space. With the new multiverse angle, I thought maybe it could be a variant Banner that goes bad, figuring Marvel may be skittish about making main universe Banner turn heel. But then a preview for the first issue hit the other day, and it seemed to point to the main universe's Banner being the one that turns heel. Which is very intriguing if true, and does definitely point to the deeper character type stuff i expected of Cates. I mean Cates does definitely love big over the top action, but it is always in service of character development/exploration, and that's the part that seemed to be missing from the earlier solicits.

And here's where I think this might line up for Thor stuff. OK. So in a nutshell, Banner is going around the multiverse, in his possible Shift Ship, and may be turning heel. So what else has Cates done recently with the multiverse? (besides CGR making the jump to the main MU... and the Maker and the whole Ultimate thing which will also likely play into this) the Black Winter. The Black Winter always felt a bit... odd in how it ended. While the threat it presented provided a lot of motivation for Thor's actions, which I still think will bite him in the ass, it turned out it wasn't actually a threat to Thor at all, at least not for a very long time yet, since it wasn't there to destroy the universe, it was just looking for Galactus. While this did mean bad things for Thor (he had assisted in the destruction of entire planets to stave off a threat that never existed) it seemed odd to introduce this all powerful multiversal force, and retcon Galactus' backstory, and then kill him, for a one-off bad guy. And while it may come back in Thor sometime, (I doubt it is destroyed for good) the main future Thor is focused on is not the Black Winter destroying the universe, but the situation with Thanos. Introducing a mutiversal threat, and retconning Galactus' past, just to give Thor a glimpse of the future and do some bad things seems to be a bit overkill, if the Black Winter isn't coming back. So the Black Winter might have been a situation where it was introduced in Thor, but it will have a larger part to play in Hulk, where he is getting into Multiverse stuff, which is the Black Winter's domain. Could Hulk/Banner become the new Herald of the Black Winter, maybe? Take it's place? Be trying to stop it? hard to say exactly, but I have a strong hunch forming that the Black Winter will be the connective tissue between Thor and Hulk. Also, we know Hulk and Thor are gonna cross over and duke it out. Banner turning heel and/or some connection to the Black Winter could definitely give a reason for the fight. But, if Banner's turning heel, and Loki's turning face... I mean.... wouldn't a fight between THEM be more interesting? What if, Thor and Hulk duke it out with brawn, but Loki and Banner duke it out with wits and words? I think that could be interesting, it could really get into the minds of both of them, and it's not as if Loki doesn't have history with Hulk as well, he was the one who set up that fight they plan on playing tribute to. And with the Loki Disney+ show, you KNOW Marvel is probably looking to get Loki involved with some multiverse and/or time travel shenanigans. I dunno, none of this speculation is fully formed, not much to go on, but i think there could be something there.

[Yoruno]

HotToys have shown their President Loki. This one is more or less related to the comics and, in my opinion, looks better than their previous Lokis.
https://www.sideshow.com/collectible...ot-toys-909392

[Raye]

ooooohhhhhh...... So tempting. Like, nearly 300 dollars, but.... so nice. And bonus Alligator Loki!

Anyway, i expanded upon my above speculation on tumblr, after the recent issue hit:

https://rayegunn.tumblr.com/post/668...oophole-in-the

Basically, relevant to Loki here, this prophecy that was mentioned last issue, I think is not going to come to pass as a literal death and Thor's soul being trapped in fire forever. Prophecies use tricksy wording, and I have no doubt this one is too. I think, as I have previously speculated, that Mjolnir will have to be re-forged, and re-enchanted. And based on what Odin said this issue about the dwarves leaving a piece of their soul in the things they forge, i think part of Thor's soul will get put into Mjolnir during the forging process, fire, and be left in Mjolnir forevermore. And then he will give this newly forged weapon (not necessarily a hammer) to the new Champion. This will kinda be his sacrifice to gain wisdom. So basically, I think he's freaking out over nothing. He not gonna literally die and get stuck in fire forever. Not mentioned in the post above, but something i have been kinda mulling over... With the forge being broken, it's possible this 'surprisng' source of help that was solicited may be Echo/Phoenix, perhaps? someone that can bring the fire without the forge. But that's much less certain to me, this mystery person could also just be Loki, or Blake, or... who knows.

The death bit is trickier. It's harder to figure out the loophole there, though I am sure there will be one. As i said on the thread i linked, it might be a symbolic death, like Thor isn't king anymore, or something like that. But also, I mean, Thor's died and gotten better before, so... But also, we' had the Odinsleep with Odin, wouldn't Thor logically have something similar? It's also possible it is not referring to Thor. it just said the 'golden king' and as such it might refer to Thor, or Balder, or Loki, or Odin (ex-king may still count) In any case, I think this will have a loophole too. Prophecies usually seem to say one thing before the events come to pass, but then after things happen, they happen with some kind of twist, and pretty sure that's what is happening here.

[Yoruno]

I'd say "death of the (ex) Champion and rebirth of the true King", with Mjolnir reforged into something more appropriate for a ruler, a staff, maybe... At least this is what happens in some folk tales (not the ones involving Thor, but this plot exists, anyway). On the other hand, there are these Dreams about Thanos, so the story might take any direction...

[Raye]

I think if it is to be a sacrifice, then Thor can't keep it, he'll have to give it to the new Champion. (though I do think Thor could use a 'Gungnir', I just don't think it should be Mjolnir, even if it is reforged into something else) But yeah reforging it into something else would make a lot of sense in a few ways if that happened. It would neuter this 'god of hammers' since presumably they need a hammer specifically. Also, if Thanos is wielding a hammer in the far future, then make it NOT a hammer, and you can break that future. So changing Mjolnir's form could solve problems and create a better future. And also, if Loki is the new Champion... a hammer just isn't really his style. I suspect they've taken away his fancy staff and had him going weaponless whenever he appears (aside from maybe a dagger) recently intentionally, so that it feels like he is gaining something that he's currently lacking. Speaking of weapons gained via sacrifice though, could maybe build on what happened in Cates' Dr Strange run, with that staff Strrange got from Yggdrasil. Maybe Mjolnir and Yggdrasil together. i know technically Yggdrasil already makes up Mjolnir's handle, but... you know what i mean. That would give Loki a magic boost.