Loki Appreciation 2021

[Riimi]

I really don't like the ending from a character standpoint. It was cruel and it seemed like Loki could relate to Blake. I guess it definitely reminds us that Loki isn't always a "good" person, even as an antihero.

On a meta level, I'm much happier. Now that Loki has been officially replaced in comics, it will be harder for writers to bring him back to his old role without doing an even greater reset. It also further confirms Cate's commitment to continuing Loki's journey rather than resetting him. I hope he shows up more in future storylines but I suppose we shall see.

Edit: I'm mostly concentrating on the meta result because I really didn't like it from a character standpoint.

[Yoruno]

The meta is cool, but this sudden switch from compassion, mercy and sparing Blake from death in Odin's hands to a fate worse than death literally looks like a crack in the story. A cringey one. You might imagine what people say about Loki in comment boxes now. On the one hand, Cates gives him a new destiny. On the other hand, he ruined the last remains of his reputation among the readers, and I'm not sure they'll be able to restore it anytime soon.

[dr4conianlaw]

Yeah, that's the problem. Even if within Cates's meta this is him renouncing his title, for anyone else writing him in the future this is going to be all too easy of a random messed up moment for them to justify 'Look guys, he really is the God of Evil!' It's not the sort of confusing, easy to spin off into worse, thing I really want on the table like this.

[GhostCryptid13]

I’m curious to see what Loki will define himself as.

[Raye]

Well, he's already tried to define himself as both the God of Stories and the God of Outcasts, it's just that neither of them seemed to stick (well, Outcasts never really got much of a chance to, to be fair) I suspect the problem is that it's not up to him to choose, exactly, because the roles are pre-defined. Hence why Blake had to inherit Loki's old title rather than getting a brand new one. There are certain lynchpin roles that MUST be filled, according to the rules of how Asgard operates. (see, they do have SOME kinda magic rules they stick to!)And we know that Loki knows this.

So his new role will be dictated by his actions and will probably be an already existing role filled by someone else.

And I am not too worried about what someone else may interpret this as, because I think Cates is not done here. this was clearly just the first step, I think it is Cates that will be giving Loki role to replace his old one, not someone else, so how some other writer may read this is probably irrelevant. It's just that how he gave up his old one is.... not the best, and could be interpreted badly. But at least Cates may be able to clarify his actions, and hopefully go somewhere good with it before anyone else can use this in a bad way

I am not sure what to make of it. And we have to wait an extra month to see any more for it, because Thor is skipping a month due to Heroes Reborn. Some of it could just be a disconnect between art and script, I think it may have seemed crueler because of the expression, and I get the impression that the Nic Klein's take on Loki is darker than Cates' take. Also just the fact that Loki was doing it rather than someone else. I mean, Blake did have to be punished, he had severely harmed many people, killed some others, stole their power, shunted everyone to another dimension, and was attempting to destroy all of Asgard. That's not something you should just walk away from. A severe punishment is appropriate. And Loki may empathize with his experiences, but that doesn't mean he has to just let him off because of that. And the fact that he does seem to acknowledge that someone he empathizes with due to a similar past deserves to be punished kinda indicates that he now agrees that he deserved punishment as well, to be fair. And Blake's punishment could have come from Thor as well, and I don't think it would have seemed as bad from him. But the fact that Loki recreated his punishment for killing Balder, knowing how awful that was, and the whole renouncing his title and giving it to Blake could point to a more selfish and mean spirited motivation. But, i mean, it's not like he is doing this to some innocent person. Like i said in my original post, even if Blake's circumstances were bad, and that led him to snap, he did still cause great harm, and thus he earned the title. It could be that Loki saw his past self in Blake, and that made him realize Blake was the right person to give the title to. It's a lot better than just passing it off to someone who didn't do something bad to earn it, at least.

My knowledge of the Thor franchise is very limited. Don't get me wrong, I always loved his Avengers stories and think he's an AMAZING character, but I'm not a huge fan of characters using Shakespearean English. In the 21st century , it feels so WEIRD to me. But I definitely get its appeal. Loki has always been a fascinating person to me. And like you said, it's because of his motives for doing the things that he does that arouses my curiosity. I sort of compare Thor, Loki and Odin to Boromir, Faramir and Denethor. That family dynamic is so cool.

I actually agree about this, and it kept me from getting into Thor much in the early days too. But to be fair, they have dramatically cut back on the faux Shakespeare talk. Thor still does 'have at thee' and 'i would have words with thee' on occasion because they have at this point become kind of catchphrases of his, but in general, they just talk like regular people these days. And while it is part of Thor's character that he tends to be slow to adapt and lags behind the times somewhat, Loki at least is like, using cell phones and computers, has social media accounts, watches/reads/listens to current entertainment, uses current slang, etc.

You're right on the money when it comes to the misuse of magic in fantasy. Often times, its application in those tales is really protean and inconsistent. And that really DAMAGES them in my opinion. I think Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald and Wonder Woman 1984 failed because they broke their own "rules" about magic WAY too many times and audiences could totally see through that. Science fiction has an advantage over fantasy because it's based on science (which exists). Fantasy is based on magic and since magic doesn't exist, a lot of people don't take the genre seriously. I think one way this problem could be fixed is the adoption of magic systems. Fantasy novels and RPGS have used them more and more with time, but I don't think the comic books have. I agree with you, though. I like it when Loki solves problems using his creativity and intelligence as opposed to brute magical strength. On the Doctor Strange thread, they also share a lot of your opinions about magic as well.

Yeah, it is rare to find a really good magic system that holds itself to rules consistently. But making a magic ruleset is a lot of work and it just gets way harder when it is not one person controlling everything, like in a novel, but a shared universe where dozens of writers will participate, and some characters play by different rules than others. It's kind of a lost cause, probably.

[CosmiComic]

They should still keep the "have at thee" though

[Raye]

oh for sure, i don't think it would feel like Thor if he didn't say that sometimes

[CosmiComic]

oh for sure, i don't think it would feel like Thor if he didn't say that sometimes

Yeah. I think giving modern dialogue but keeping a few Shakespearean phrases is good enough for me

[Albert1981]

Well, he's already tried to define himself as both the God of Stories and the God of Outcasts, it's just that neither of them seemed to stick (well, Outcasts never really got much of a chance to, to be fair) I suspect the problem is that it's not up to him to choose, exactly, because the roles are pre-defined. Hence why Blake had to inherit Loki's old title rather than getting a brand new one. There are certain lynchpin roles that MUST be filled, according to the rules of how Asgard operates. (see, they do have SOME kinda magic rules they stick to!)And we know that Loki knows this.

So his new role will be dictated by his actions and will probably be an already existing role filled by someone else.

And I am not too worried about what someone else may interpret this as, because I think Cates is not done here. this was clearly just the first step, I think it is Cates that will be giving Loki role to replace his old one, not someone else, so how some other writer may read this is probably irrelevant. It's just that how he gave up his old one is.... not the best, and could be interpreted badly. But at least Cates may be able to clarify his actions, and hopefully go somewhere good with it before anyone else can use this in a bad way

I am not sure what to make of it. And we have to wait an extra month to see any more for it, because Thor is skipping a month due to Heroes Reborn. Some of it could just be a disconnect between art and script, I think it may have seemed crueler because of the expression, and I get the impression that the Nic Klein's take on Loki is darker than Cates' take. Also just the fact that Loki was doing it rather than someone else. I mean, Blake did have to be punished, he had severely harmed many people, killed some others, stole their power, shunted everyone to another dimension, and was attempting to destroy all of Asgard. That's not something you should just walk away from. A severe punishment is appropriate. And Loki may empathize with his experiences, but that doesn't mean he has to just let him off because of that. And the fact that he does seem to acknowledge that someone he empathizes with due to a similar past deserves to be punished kinda indicates that he now agrees that he deserved punishment as well, to be fair. And Blake's punishment could have come from Thor as well, and I don't think it would have seemed as bad from him. But the fact that Loki recreated his punishment for killing Balder, knowing how awful that was, and the whole renouncing his title and giving it to Blake could point to a more selfish and mean spirited motivation. But, i mean, it's not like he is doing this to some innocent person. Like i said in my original post, even if Blake's circumstances were bad, and that led him to snap, he did still cause great harm, and thus he earned the title. It could be that Loki saw his past self in Blake, and that made him realize Blake was the right person to give the title to. It's a lot better than just passing it off to someone who didn't do something bad to earn it, at least.



I actually agree about this, and it kept me from getting into Thor much in the early days too. But to be fair, they have dramatically cut back on the faux Shakespeare talk. Thor still does 'have at thee' and 'i would have words with thee' on occasion because they have at this point become kind of catchphrases of his, but in general, they just talk like regular people these days. And while it is part of Thor's character that he tends to be slow to adapt and lags behind the times somewhat, Loki at least is like, using cell phones and computers, has social media accounts, watches/reads/listens to current entertainment, uses current slang, etc.



Yeah, it is rare to find a really good magic system that holds itself to rules consistently. But making a magic ruleset is a lot of work and it just gets way harder when it is not one person controlling everything, like in a novel, but a shared universe where dozens of writers will participate, and some characters play by different rules than others. It's kind of a lost cause, probably.

Oh really?! Loki's acting like a regular dude these days! COOL! That's a good move on Marvel's part. I'm glad to see Thor is talking like a 21st century guy too. SOME Shakespearean dialogue is still okay though. I doubt the comic books could integrate a cohesive magical system throughout the Marvel Universe. It's just too unwieldy. Although it is something many readers would prefer apparently. I still hold out hope that the movies try to stay clear of magical contradictions. So far I think Marvel Studios has done a good job there.

[GhostCryptid13]

So if Loki gets the role of Thor, what do you guys think it’ll look like?

[Raye]

If you mean personality wise, I would not want Loki to just begin acting like Thor. I want him to be like Loki.... just doing good rather than bad things. I'd still want him to like trick people and do magic and stuff, not just starting to whack everything with a hammer.

if you mean costume... oh man, I dunno. I really like his current costume, so I'm reluctant to see it go, but I realize that such a big status quo change would probably require a new costume. a cape is likely in order. possibly back to the head wings wings rather than horns, though I would want to keep the exposed hair. maybe a bit less black, more gold.

oh, Valkyries preview is out, tho Loki is only shown for one page: https://www.cbr.com/the-mighty-valky...s-escape-hell/

[Karabaja]

Just read Thor. A few things stand out to me:
1. Loki sympathising with Donald seemed genuine. That last panel showing him exiting the torture chamber with his head hanging low, along with that unenthusiastic-looking "ever shall you reign" , strikes me as him not enjoying what he's doing in the slightest. But of course, he's still a bastard enough to do it, though not feeling very chirpy about it. It seems to me this was something that he felt was necessary to be done, which leads me to
2. The reason why it was perhaps necessary was that the role transfer requires it. Just slapping a tag "god of lies" on Donald wouldn't work; one needs to check certain boxes to fulfill the requirements for a role, and being tortured in a specific way as a penalty for their crimes was the last one for Donald's 'god of lies' boxes. Perhaps the torturing has to be done by another god, or by a family member, or even it has to be as specific as 'chained to a rock with a venom-dripping viper'; or perhaps not, but Loki chose this kind of torture as a symbolic thing for the role transfer.
3. Thor knew Donald will be tortured. That much is clear. Whether he knew how exactly is of a little importance. He is in this with Loki.
4. As sadistic as the punishment is, let us remember it was the good guys that came up with it originally-namely, Odin- and when Loki was on the receiving end, it was presented as being a fair repercussion for all the **** he had done. Thor knew it and was all right with it back then, too. It would be a bit doublestandardy to call Loki a bad guy for issuing the same punishment Odin once did, and was called a just king for it.

[Yoruno]

Unenthusiastic? He was, before he entered the dungeons. There, Loki was smiling. I like the role shift idea, but this smile...

[Karabaja]

Ah, I guess it's a matter of interpretation (hopefully ). Yeah, I see the smile, but it doesn't hold much happiness, as far as I can guess the artist's idea. It's the last panel with him leaving that gets me. Let's see how things move from this point.

[Raye]

that's why i said there may be a disconnect between the art and script. He's not said anything that I've seen, but based on how he draws him, I just get the impression that Klein thinks of Loki as still basically a bad guy. Maybe just hasn't read any of the recent stuff, or something. But he's not controlling the story, Cates is, so one panel of a kinda sinister looking grin may not mean a lot, and isn't necessarily a reason to worry too much.

You're right, imprisonment does seem to be a requirement, though I don't think the specific details matter a lot, but Loki may have just been covering his bases. But like, look at Cul, who had the role before Loki did, he was imprisoned too, by his own brother as well, but no snake etc. though unlike Loki, he didn't escape until waaaaay later. and then was imprisoned by Odin AGAIN. but it was framed in a much more sympathetic light there, and Odin shared his imprisonment. But yeah, though a few of the roles can simply be granted, (like Odin making Thor king) others, like Loki's i think are more about ticking certain boxes. Blake ticked a bunch with his rampage, and I think Cates redefining Blake as Thor's, and by extension Loki's, brother is important for him filling the role. that is one of the reasons Tyr fit so well, after all. So this imprisonment may be the final piece of the puzzle that needs to be done.

*edit - oh yeah, one other thing occurred to me, if it is Loki that becomes the next 'Thor' is that though he's being called the God of Lies here, and there was certainly some deception with his plan, such as his dinner with Jane, mostly he was a brute force kind of bad guy. He kept sucking up power to just beat the ever-loving **** out of people. But that could fit for the role, particularly if Loki is to be his opposite. with Thor and Loki, thor was all about strength and power and Loki was more about smarts and tricks, they approached things differently and that's part of what made the dynamic interesting, Loki was a foil for Thor. and if Loki continues to be more about brains than brawn, having Blake be more about strength would fit to make him a foil for Loki. (another reason I thought Tyr was a good fit) though I do presume Thor took away his stolen power, so he ought to be back to kind of a baseline. But when he escapes, and he definitely will, he may go about gaining strength/power again.