Loki Appreciation 2021

[Fanto.mx]

ah, ok, hen yeah i guess we are on the same page there. and yep, Josh Brolin would definitely fit.

so yet another trailer, Loki is STILL burdened with glorious purpose:



I get the feeling we are seeing Mobius formulating his plan to bring Loki onboard in that one? when he's looking at video of Loki's very un-glorious arrest?

and completely unrelated to the show, I have just been thinking the past couple days.... let's assume for a sec i am correct about my speculation, and Loki is the next 'Thor' how would be the best way to have that switch happen? It's just, I think Thor loves Loki as family, but Loki's past obviously still colours Thor's perception of Loki as a person, and he still essentially thinks of Loki as 'The God of Lies', as a bad guy. He kinda demonstrated this in earlier conversations in the story so far. This makes it extremely unlikely that he'd hand the role over to Loki specifically when he does come to the conclusion that he has to give that up in order to be a better king. But I do think Loki actually does fit the role, as unlikely as some people may find that to be. (including Thor. and I think that's part of why he would be a much more interesting choice than Bill or whoever) So this is all just based on nothing except what i think could work, but.... in my head, i am kinda picturing a scenario where Thor decides he needs to devote himself fully to being king, (quite possibly at the insistence of Odin) but to fully commit to that, he has to ensure he can not lift Mjolnir, or the temptation to use it and go do his usual thing would be too great. He has to fix the enchantment so it is returned to only a very select few being able to lift it, AND he can not be among that group. But intentionally this time, so it's not like he loses his worthiness, he just decides the next champion type has new rules of worthiness. So he does this, whether he picks traits specifically, or it's something more vague, I kinda feel he may go with the more vague option, so it really is a surprise to him. But either way, new enchantment is placed on the hammer. I kinda think he would place it somewhere prominent where people could come try their luck, but probably still in Asgard, so like the throne room or something? And then he invites people to lift it. Starting with likely suspects, Bill, Angela, etc. Loki is not invited, he is assumed to be unworthy. No one succeeds. Then Loki comes by to talk, or maybe he invited for some other reason, but Loki is unaware of the new enchantment, because of his assumed unworthiness and no one telling him as a result. So Loki still thinks just anyone can come pick the thing up, like he did before. So maybe he's like 'why do you have this in the middle of the floor?' and picks it up, and everyone is all like :-o (why does that smiley without the nose look like a blushing face here? weird) and he doesn't realize at first what is happening, until Thor explains. I think there would be confusion all around, from Loki as well, and I think most of them may think that Thor somehow screwed up the enchantment, or something. Basically, i think they'd be more ready to believe something was wrong with the enchantment than believe Loki was worthy. so Loki kinda has to prove himself twice, once to the hammer/enchantment, and then again to Thor and everyone who isn't prepared to believe it.

It really does seem like they're trying to tell us that Mobius is leveraging Loki's ambition for ruling things to make Loki do things...but this is the first trailer to do that, isn't it? Most of them seemed like it was more threatening Loki with erasure and just kind of muscling him around. It makes me think that maybe Mobius is going to have to use a bunch of different carrots and different sticks to get Loki to do things, but that Loki will constantly shift around them. Which makes good Loki sense, but also makes good story sense, since we will eventually learn what Loki really cares about and Loki will be forced into a situation where he has to decide both what he cares about and who he is.

In a way, even though he's a prisoner here, the TVA is giving Loki what he always wanted: The only shadow he's living in is his own.

----------

I do think Loki is going to slip into Thor's role one way or another, but I have also thought that for something like...4 years? The threads of that story are definitely there, as you've pointed out, and we keep getting story beats that would make good sense with the roles shift we've been talking about. Here, the story beat that I think is pressing on this thread is how just very very bad Thor is at ruling and how very very bad Thor is at letting go of being the punch-em-up hero. (In contrast to the MCU, in the comics, Thor is the one burdened by a need for glory.) It would make sense in the current structure of the story to really put Thor in a situation where he not only has to delegate but has someone trustworthy to pick up the slack.

[Raye]

Just an hour left! but yeah, looks like Mobius is trying different things to get Loki to go along with the game plan, but I think i will save further thoughts until i watch the episode.

And yeah, the one thing that's been frustrating about this changing of the guard that's been happening is how slowly it's been moving. Part of that is because the writers have been building off of previous writers work, often in ways i doubt they would have anticipated. Like I think Gillen just did the 'story' stuff and the struggle of Loki wanting to escape his role largely because it made sense for Loki, specifically, and the point he was trying to make about how strong the pull of status quo is in comic books. But then it got morphed to encompass all of Asgard, and they ALL had roles defined by the story of Asgard. And just kinda snowballed, until we are here now, where there seems to be a major role shift happening all over Asgard, signalling a new era. So yeah, it's taken years to get here which is a bit frustrating, but I do feel it's reached a point where it can't be delayed much longer. We have seen Loki unambiguously give his role to Blake, Thor is king, and the solicits for the next arc point to him committing himself to that role rather than his old one. And we can't have his old role go unfilled for long. It may not happen at the end of this next arc, but probably by the end of the one after that.

The point is the characters have similar abilities but different personalities. Like Iron Man and War Machine. It's more of a personal preference tbh. Someone with a different power set would have a different identity

But we don't need that. First off, i don't consider powers to be the thing that defines identity. Identity is values, personality, and other internal personal attributes. powers and abilities may reflect that to an extent, because different personalities lend themselves to different skills, but they don't necessarily define a character on their own. Second, Thor's not going anywhere, he is still the main character of the Thor book, and will continue to be, he's not been depowered, on the contrary he's gotten more powers, he's just got a new job/status quo, so this isn't like your usual legacy pass off. Loki wouldn't be replacing Thor, or taking on his identity, he'd just be taking a job Thor used to do. As long as he accomplishes the main defining characteristics of the role (face threats to Asgard and Midgard, and have those two realms divide his attention and loyalty, work towards learning a lesson to address a major character flaw, deal with the God of Lies who has a personal grudge against him, butt heads with the All-Father because they disagree on how things should be done, etc.) the specific details of powers and stuff don't really matter. I know i keep calling it the 'Thor' role but that's just because that is the simplest shorthand, because these roles often don't have actual titles. A few do, but others they just fill a particular role in the narrative, (in universe i mean, because 'gods are creatures of story' and there is an in-universe narrative happening to accomplish that) and that role doesn't actually have a name, exactly, you just know it when you see it. You can see the symmetry between Bor, Sigurd, and Cul that you can see in Odin, Thor, and Loki, even if it may be tough to pinpoint an exact name for the roles. The role isn't actually Thor's, and i really should stop calling it that to avoid confusion, but i just don't have a good alternative right now. It predates Thor, going back at least to Sigurd (the ever glorious), and each one that we've seen has filled that role somewhat differently. They accomplish the same end goals, fill the same place in the story, but often have different methods or guiding principles. And I expect that trend to continue here, because a major theme in Cates run so far has been the need to change and adapt. If Asgard as a society is to progress and not be an irrelevant relic of the past, it has to change, and part of that is getting a new ruler. If Thor is to fill his new role as king properly, he has to step out f his comfort zone, devote himself fully to being King, and change how he does things. (not necessarily his ideals or goals, just he can't accomplish those goals in the same way he used to) Blake went insane in part because he was stuck in a monotonously unchanging status quo he was desperate to escape. He wanted change, he wanted to become something else, and he did that, though in a terrible way. Loki wants to change by escaping his old role and changing other people's perception of him, this has been his status since before Cates, but he hasn't been terribly successful in accomplishing it until now. It is a consistent theme of the run, one that I think would be undermined by filling Thor's old role with someone like Bill who is, aside from his backstory and familial connections, extremely similar to Thor, as demonstrated by him being deemed worthy by the same enchantment that deemed Thor worthy. And if Thor changes that enchantment so he himself is no longer worthy, then Bill will no longer be worthy either. Unless he changes, so the theme could still work there, but not because Bill is just a knockoff version of Thor.

[Raye]

So I watched Loki and I liked it a lot, Loki and Mobius do have an interesting dynamic, and there were some intriguing teases for future episodes. It definitely is using a lot of the same themes that keep popping up with Loki in the comics ever since JIM, fate, free will, roles. Loki's definitely disturbed by his fate, and the idea that he is not as in control of his life as he liked to think, and that his role, his 'glorious purpose' was to elevate the designated heroes of the 'sacred timeline'. Also, rather disturbed by his future, if things had progressed according to the TVA's plan, namely that he inadvertently caused the death of his mother, and his death at Thanos' hands. Also suspect, though it's not outright stated, disturbed by how small and insignificant he is compared to the power of the TVA. They use Infinity Stones as paperweights, they can turn off magic, and decide the fate of all reality. I can only speak for myself, but the idea of something that controls everything, and that all actions are pre-determined and planned out is a very disturbing one to me, not 'comforting' like Mobius seems to think. Like if you get into a lot of theoretical physics stuff, free will comes into play there as well, and that's one thing, but when you put a face on it, an actual entity that makes decisions for everyone, that's disturbing imo. And I think that is kind of what Loki is feeling here. He's a god, and thought he would be the one to be determining fate of others, and he saw it as benevolence, removing the ability to make bad decisions. And now he has come face to face with a power so overwhelmingly powerful, he's like some rando mortal compared to a god, and they are the ones purporting to be 'benevolently' removing the ability of others to make 'bad' choices. Except their sacred timeline made him the villain, didn't it? he only got redemption as he died. So it didn't exactly work out well for him. So yeah, i think that's shaken him up, and could lead to some self reflection and re-evaluation of what he wants to do. They definitely seemed to get at the root of his motivations here, being based on like, projecting an illusion of fear and strength to hide weakness. Though I would not put it past him to try and escape again, even though he seems to understand right now that he can't go back to his timeline. And yes, the big bad is a Loki variant, which wasn't hard ot guess at. though I do note that Mobius referred to this variant as a 'he' and a little girl (who I suspect may be coming back into play later as a younger version of Di Martino's character, maybe) identified the big bad by pointing to a picture of the devil, with horns on his forehead, so I don't think it is as simple as the 'it's Lady Loki' thing most people are guessing at. I think maybe the Big Bad Loki is maybe collecting versions of himself and they are working together, or something?

Also, I hope we get more Casey in future episodes.

[Drops Of Venus]

In the special thanks portion of the credits, they specifically list Kieron Gillen, Jamie McKelvie and Al Ewing. It seems like the show will definitely borrow direct elements from the JIM/YA/AOA runs. Really excited to see what they do!

[Yoruno]

Loved the pace, loved the acting (a lot).
I wonder how it could have happened that another Loki variant appeared. Where and when did the split take place? Why doesn't our Loki know about it? Could it be himself in the future, seeing what TVA was doing to him and other people?
Then, the girl. I understand why she's pointing at the devil's image, she saw a man with horns and that's the closest analogy she could think of. It’s 16th century, right? But if this is Young Sylvie, why did she confront TVA later? Was the chewing gum so good?
One more observation. The hooded character, whoever this might be, Sylvie or Old Loki, doesn't want the timeline to be deleted. Which made me think of the horrified look on Loki's face when he looked back during his arrest and saw this lamp-like device erasing the timeline.

[Yoruno]

In the special thanks portion of the credits, they specifically list Kieron Gillen, Jamie McKelvie and Al Ewing. It seems like the show will definitely borrow direct elements from the JIM/YA/AOA runs. Really excited to see what they do!

I just wonder what might be borrowed from YA.

[Raye]

I hadn't noticed that! when the credits were rolling i was in reflection mode so i never saw, that's cool. But yeah, a couple of us said before in this thread that there were some strong Agent of Asgard vibes coming off some of the plot elements we saw in trailers, like an agent Loki fighting fate and trying to be better, and he has to fight and an evil version of himself, it's quite similar, even if the reasons behind the events are different

As for McKelvie's contribution, costume, probably. McKelvie designed Loki's current costume. I mean what else could it be, if they didn't thank Lee Garbett? (thanking artists on JIM is admittedly quite difficult, as there were a lot of them) We may be seeing Loki's modern comics costume make an appearance. We already know they copied the Vote Loki costume to the last detail, aside from it having battle damage, and they released that modern Loki /Kid Loki combo pack toy right as the show was about to launch, so.... Maybe not every Loki they come across will be bad, or the main (for the show) Loki gets it later.

And yeah, i really do think the little girl will be back, her inclusion wasn't actually necessary for them to conclude it was the Big Bad Loki, (I am making that my designation for the Loki that's going around killing people) they had already come to that conclusion. Also that candy she was eating shows up later in the credits (I may not have been reading, but i was watching ) so my bet? she is a young version of Di Martino's character, and they will know her by that candy.

And yes, when the TVA 'cleans up' a timeline, with that little device, that means erase it. Destroy it. they see it as pruning the timeline to prevent another war, but.... yeah.... this other Loki is probably gonna be a villain who makes a good point.

[Yoruno]

Why do they mention Jamie McKelvie but not the creative team of Vote Loki, I wonder?

[rpmaluki]

It's funny when the creative of the show say they aren't basing the show on any particular storyline but from the first episode, you get a major theme that has defined Loki since Siege Loki exected his most elaborate plan that basically got away from him right around YA and AoA. The specifics will very but Loki's character arc not so much, maybe and this makes me very happy. I can't guess the ending because even in the comics its still a question mark if Loki will ever truly escape fate. Did I mention I love it!?!

[Celtic1967]

My money is on evil Loki being female.

[rpmaluki]

My money is on evil Loki being female.

My guess as well. She didn’t like the way her story ended and created a nexus timeline and has been trying to keep herself from being erased. I need a rewatch of Mobius' questioning of Loki. He seemed to focus on Loki's knack for escape and whether he enjoyed killing.

Loki realising his "glorious purpose" was sad though, that sucks!

[Karabaja]

I'm just going to lurk here and envy you all because where I live, there's no Disney+. Trailers look good.

[Raye]

Why do they mention Jamie McKelvie but not the creative team of Vote Loki, I wonder?

Yeah, I dunno. I guess there's only so much room for special thanks and Gillen, Ewing and McKelvie are the bigger names and had the most impact overall. Tho the Vote Loki costume has been showcased prominently in the marketing, it may be that if they do use the modern costume, it may be more significant in it's use. I kinda get the impression that, though it seems like a fun scene and all, President Loki in his post apocalyptic throne room is a relatively minor part of the overall plot, so maybe the other costume is a bigger deal, and they are kinda saving it for a reveal later rather than showing it in marketing? But it may also be that the plot does borrow some aspects of Young Avengers, I mean they did jump around to different timelines there, and that was probably part of what pushed Loki into being better, he saw alternate versions of himself doing some really fucked up ****. I dunno, guess we'll see.

My guess as well. She didn’t like the way her story ended and created a nexus timeline and has been trying to keep herself from being erased. I need a rewatch of Mobius' questioning of Loki. He seemed to focus on Loki's knack for escape and whether he enjoyed killing.

Loki realising his "glorious purpose" was sad though, that sucks!

I dunno, Mobius referred to the variant doing the killings as 'he' so... while yeah, he may just be mistaken about the gender, you'd think that if he knew it was a Loki, he'd know a bit more about the specifics. I think there may be a bit more to it, is all.

And yeah, that scene was sad, and Hiddleston did a great job in it, getting the emotions across.

and yes, HUGE shared themes from JIM onward, after watching I am not surprised they thanked those particular creators, because yeah, there's totally inspiration from the comics going in terms of what motivates Loki, and the whole has to literally fight himself thing, even if a lot of the specifics have been tweaked.

So, unrelated, went looking what the release date of next issue of Thor was, (not until July! ack! I thought it was only delayed one month, not 2. really don't get them putting books on pause for Heroes Reborn, considering we all know the Heroes Reborn stuff will get undone, like seriously) and ended up reading some discussion of the previous issue here: https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/comic/3834781/thor-14 yeesh.... a lot of people didn't like that ending, which I know we weren't super enthusiastic about either, but for different reasons. Some of it is just poor reading comprehension, or not understanding the roles thing, or where the story is likely headed. Like, some seem confused about why Blake wasn't killed, or made better with some kind of epiphany. Like, duh, he's being kept around and still turned heel and given the God of Lies title because he will escape later and continue being a villain. I mean, come on, this isn't hard, Cates was setting up a new status quo to use later. Some others do get that, but they don't like it. But the thing that really struck me is how many of them still definitely do see Loki as a bad guy, full stop, and that ending really didn't help there. Just several of them just thinking handing Blake to Loki was, by default, a bad move, because Loki was a bad guy. Really highlights how few of them are aware of the face turn, or don't accept it. And this ending and the long pause between issues reeeeeaally not helping.

But on the other hand, the other main thing made me kinda come around on the fate Blake got, because of how many of them seem to think Blake should not get any punishment, and instead deserved mercy. Which is really strange to me? I get that he had a raw deal which led him to snap, and that Odin and to a lesser extent Thor are responsible for driving him to this, because that realm he was stuck in was not good for his mental health, and he felt abandoned and forgotten about. (which he was) But the more i saw people saying he deserved mercy, i was like... no. I realize he had reasons for snapping, but he still did some heinous things, and raw deal or not, his actions were a decision he made, and he doesn't deserve to just walk. Regardless of what he went through, or his past relationship to Thor, he still can't be allowed to go free in good conscience. He's not going to just stop because he got punched hard and Thor had an epiphany about how Blake was treated. He was too far gone, needed to be imprisoned, or he'd have continued killing and trying to get revenge on Odin; he was beyond reasoning with at that point, and he needs to be locked away for the safety of others, and as a result he did EARN the god of lies title with his actions. I still think the snake was a bit much, but the number of people saying he should have been given mercy after what he did... no. He doesn't deserve mercy. He was minutes away from destroying Asgard. He killed people. Attempted to kill many more. And yes, i realize that should apply to Loki as well. If Blake deserved punishment, so did Loki. And I think LOKI realizes that too, and that is kinda why he did what he did. I am sure Loki thought he didn't deserve his punishment with the snake and all at the time... but now? I think he realized he deserved what he got. Well, deserved punishment at least. Again, the snake was a bit much. I realize though that it came off as cruel, but was hoping the next issue could add more context, but that we have to wait 2 months is frustrating.

Some, even someone who flat out said they had not read any of the Loki stuff before this, did get it though, so like, i think a lot of people did understand. Just... i dunno, the ones who didn't get it just remind me how how hard it will be to win them over.

ps. this shirt is badass: https://www.onceuponatee.net/collect...eid=80a6098b90

[Yoruno]

I'm just going to lurk here and envy you all because where I live, there's no Disney+. Trailers look good.

We don't have as well. VPN? Er... illegal sources maybe?

[Chris0013]

I want this series to end with Loki being put back into the timeline, do a fast forward of everything that happens up to his death, and when his body is floating in space after the destruction of the ship he opens his eyes and teleports away.