Loki Appreciation 2021

[Raye]

Two things I thought of tonight:
1.A Nexus isn't what TVA says it is, it's not any violator of the sacred timeline, it's a person who is able to create realities, and TVA is actually after them. Loki might be the one who has this power, he will possibly make up stories/realities with Loki as a ruler, Loki as a president, etc and bring them to life.
2. TVA slogan “For all time, always" actually means (or used to mean, or will mean) "For all time, all ways".

I really like that play one words idea! I could definitely see that happening, where either the meaning has changed, or will change.

And yeah, I think the only people they bring in for a trial are the ones who are the ones who instigate a change, but I don't think that makes them all Nexus Beings in the same way that Wanda is. At least according to the Miss Minutes cartoon, where something like missing work could cause a branching timeline, and that we saw a rando skrull, Peggy Carter, and some random rich *******, who apparently had no powers to speak of, they seem to be going with the more traditional scientific view of a multiverse. One where each and every action that could have multiple outcomes, no matter how big or how small, happens, but each outcome happens in a different universe. Billions of potential branching points occur every second, on Earth alone. Though they may find ways to make this a bit more manageable in the show. Like maybe not every outcome results in a whole new universe, there seems to be some threshold that needs to be met according to their scanners, maybe minor variances that end up inconsequential just kinda merge back in? But sometimes it alters things enough to create a branching timeline, either because the action itself is a big thing on it's own (the example used in Endgame being removing an Infinity Stone from that reality.) or a small action like being late for work creates a causal chain via the Butterfly Effect that builds to a larger change. (You leave late for work, but if you had been on time, your car would have blocked someone who then ran a red light because your car was now sitting further back, which in turn leads to a car accident that kills someone important, as a simple example) Then the TVA just prunes the timelines with outcomes they decide don't fit their sacred timeline. They would not need an organization as massive as depicted on the show unless they were dealing with many, many branching points, and with them having compressed things down to a single timeline (and maybe some supporting timelines deemed necessary for that timeline to progress) that means they are only dealing with branching points from the main MCU timeline, and in the comics, each timeline only has one Nexus Being. If they only had to deal with the actions of one Nexus Being, they would not need an organization as large as what was shown. I think a Nexus Being has additional power to alter the timeline above and beyond most, but clearly they are dealing with ordinary events as well. It may still be that this King Loki is doing some kind of 'story' thing, but maybe more by exploiting how the multiverse works somehow, rather than some inherent power.

Not that we've seen yet. But I think that will be something to watch for moving forward, since if they don't use them during "field" work, that is probably significant.



I really love the idea that the stones don't work not because they're not in their native universe, but because their native universes no longer exist. That makes just as much or more sense, and it does allow for shenanigans in the past and future of the MCU.

Though to be fair, we also know magic doesn't work in the TVA, so it may just be the power dampening the TVA uses as well. We will have to see if one of the Infinity Stones in evidence would work once taken through one of their time portals where magic works again to confirm if they are forever powerless once their universe is erased. Loki will likely oblige us there, later. You know he probably pocketed a stone or three and as soon as they let him through a portal he will try to use it.

Another complete tangent idea I had was...did Strange accidentally put the "dark dimension" under the authority of the TVA by introducing time? And on that note, I think you're right about some alternate dimensions/timelines not being pruned because they're necessary to the one they're actually protecting. The quantum dimension and mirror dimensions, besides the dark dimension are additional examples.

Maybe! but then, the TVA may only deal with the proper universe and the Dark Dimension may just be considered to be a part of the main universe.

Totally dense and full of set-up. Some things moved very quickly, and a lot of the mysteries were just touched upon, just enough to world build. It was super efficient.

As for time passing...this is part of why I think maybe time passes backward in the TVA. If Loki died for sure for sure, which all evidence points to, that means that the variant that is apparently the current big bad has to be from somewhere between 2012 and the Snap. If Cap's returning the stones didn't prevent branching, the TVA just pruned them, then maybe the Bad Variant Loki is from one of those branches? Maybe he's even from the 1949 branch with Cap. 74 years is a long, long time to muck with things. But there's also a universe out there where Strange couldn't stop Kaecilius and Dormammu, which might be an interesting opportunity for a Loki, a universe where Mjolnir just up and disappeared in the middle of The Dark World, a universe where Ego probably succeeds in turning or killing Quill, and several universes where Loki never has the Mind Stone for a variety of reasons. Just for some examples.

Very possible. the writer of the show strongly hinted that the timeline where Cap lived his life with Peggy would be addressed in the show: https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a...a-involvement/ so if King Loki is from one of the branched timelines related to Cap returning the stones.... my bet is it's THAT one.

[Fanto.mx]

Yeah, we don't know how any of this actually works yet. My hypothesizing is all about suspecting that they aren't telling us the whole story, though. The number one rule in power is ensure that you are the only one with all the information, which makes everything they've told us suspect.

And that's actually why I'm not surprised that Loki is knee-deep in files almost immediately. He's okay at playing like he's on your side, and of course he's going to try to pry things open and look for loopholes. The first episode was basically him testing the electric fences, makes sense that the next thing he would do is take a crash course in electrical engineering.

And yeah, with that little bit of meta evidence that the Capeggy timeline is on the table, I suspect that that's the one this variant is from, too. Like knowing what we do about Cap and his personality (and Peggy's involvement in Big Things), seems unlikely he would live a quiet little life. I mean, it's within the realm of possibility that he puts together an Avengersish team back in the 50s. Thor would be the only one alive and powerful at that time, so it's very within the possibility that he at least gets Loki's attention.

[Yoruno]

Wow! Did you notice Viking Loki and Hulk Loki among the pruned variants?! But I have no idea about the football player...

[Raye]

yep, clearly taken from this image:






So, many worlds version of the timestream confirmed, ANY event can in theory lead to a branch as i said above, Mobius even described the Butterfly Effect causing a chain of events form a small change to a larger one. And as i speculated above as a way to keep things more manageable, they only truly branch if there is a change that will ultimately affect the future significantly. Though can't say i connected the dots from that to hiding out in apocalypse moments, that is clever. But there's something I don't get. If there is just one sacred timeline, how is it that all these variant Lokis could be so different? It seems like many of these variants are too different to just happen suddenly, something built to them over time. I mean, Loki looks completely different in some. The one from way back in the past could simply be Loki when younger, but... we know for sure he is the past version of comic book Loki, which may imply the comic universe existing in the MCU's multiverse. I mean there is also the Vote Loki costume we've seen in promos, but clearly events went down differently there than in the comics. Others, Loki reacted to with confusion, he'd never seen these versions of himself before, so they're not from his past, and we know he dies in Endgame, not too long after when this one was plucked from, so we know they're not from the future in the timeline he came from. (which is, presumably, the 'Sacred timeline') But the TVA tries to prune timelines before events change enough to create a branch, so.... where did they come from? If what the TVA says is true, there should not be any timelines with differences large enough for those variants to exist.

No hint about the Peggy/Cap timeline here, but that whole thing also begs the same question. If a timeline can not be reset after it reaches that threshold, then.... is that timeline still out there? I mean Cap lived a whole other life with Peggy, he HAD to have changed events, even if he did try to be careful. And so, if that one is still out there, then are others as well? Is that the big lie of the TVA, that there actually is a multiverse? Is the perfect chaos free future Mobius and the rest striving for completely impossible, just a lie to keep them on task and loyal?

spoilers:

and 'Lady Loki' confirmed.... but with the enchantment leading up to it, i suspect she is just another puppet body for the true big bad, I bet Sylvie Lushton as speculated before is the body, and probably the one behind it all is Grant's character. Also, Loki does seem to be looking for a way to meet the Time Keepers, presumably to overthrow them, but a lot of this was taken from the confrontation with 'himself' where he had reason to lie in order to gain their trust, so that has to be taken with a grain of salt. We will have to see whether he was lying or not.

end of spoilers

Also, read Valkyries. The cover definitely doesn't seem to reflect the contents of the book, Loki mostly just hung out playing with the kiddos all issue. There was a caption that said he saw an opportunity and took it, but there's no real hint at what that opportunity is. But the main one playing games here seems to be Karnilla, she just recruited Loki to help with that, getting Jane's hair so she could bind Jane's fate to that of the new gods. It's possible Loki will double cross her somehow, but really not getting a bad vibe from him here so far.

[Yoruno]

I guess there's a sort of the Iron Curtain. I mean, the space lizards or whoever rules TVA just try to separate the Sacred Timeline and block it from any possible contacts with the multiverse, which must be still in existence.

[PlatinumThorns]

Just a thought on the show itself and not the specific character; you'd think making 75% of the new episode Loki and Mobius shooting the **** would be pretty plodding but nah, they have great chemistry together and a lot of the plot build up was interesting enough to keep me engaged the whole way.

[Raye]

yeah, it may be that they are still trying to protect the sacred timeline in particular (which is likely just 'sacred' because it serves their interests, because it leads to the birth of He Who Remains) by pruning timelines which could aversely affect it somehow. Generally, different timelines keep to themselves, though. But they could be taking essentially the role of Namor's Cabal in the leadup to Secret Wars, (Hickman version) if there are incursion type events that could happen, destroy one timeline to prevent both from destroying each other. They did say there was a multiversal war in the past which sounded very much like Secret Wars, after all.

But that still makes it so that the TVA's rank and file operate under a lie. And in doing so, they spread the lie to others, and may not be doing the good they think they are. They believe the Sacred Timeline is the only one in existence, and that they will eventually crate a perfect universe at the end of time, with no Nexus Events, and at that time they will cease to be, knowing they've created the best possible universe, right? But if the multiverse exists, if the MU is out there somewhere in the multiverse, or a universe where Loki hulks out etc. and they can not reset established timelines, then that perfect future they are working towards doesn't exist, it is impossible, and they are working to not to create a better future, but more than likely to protect the existence of some 'space lizards' who decreed themselves the arbiters of all time, for selfish reasons. What they do may still end up being for the good of the multiverse, (but also maybe not) and I don't doubt that Mobius and the others believe they are doing good. But belief doesn't make something true, they are still operating under false pretenses, towards a goal that's not as good as they think it is, or may be completely pointless, or worse, cause unintended harm.

and yes, i am really impressed at the chemistry between Mobius and Loki. Some of that is the actors, but also the writing for both of them, how they are both on equal footing, in terms of cleverness and all that, is also really well done.

[rpmaluki]

I like how this episode basically exposed how small Loki's plan to take over the TVA/depose the time keepers really is. It's too easy and very predictable, you can practically see the wheels turning after the run in with Lady Loki. I'm curious as to why she (intentionally) left the portal open long enough for him to pass through. Her throwing the multiverse into chaos but exploding that "sacred timeline" is classic Loki but there's also a goal there, what is it? And yes, I do think the "sacred timeline" is a TVA self-serving timeline/construct that keeps them in power. I think our Loki's curiousity about Lady Loki's true intentions is what necessitated he change his plans for the TVA. Another thing, I don't think it was so random for Loki to explain one of his abilities that the TVA and maybe all of us have assumed with Loki and that might come into play some time later in the show, At first I thought it was in this episode at the shelter when Loki was talking to Lady Loki and another person was setting the charges but I may not remember the scene accurately. Additionally, Loki's commentary on the good not being wholly good and vice versa, seemed significant and not in a meta sort of way, it is one of the few things Loki said in this episode that Mobius didn't immediately dismiss as empty babble from a time variant with an over inflated sense of self.

P.S. Not a fan of blonde Lady Loki. At the very least they should have cast someone who could make you think it's Loki. I know they couldn't use Jaimie Alexander seeing how she's Sif and they want Lady Loki to be her own person but I can't help but wish for a close resemblance between the Lokis.

[Raye]

As a goal, they probably just want to create universes where their fate isn't pre-determined. Create enough timelines that the TVA can't stop them ALL from hitting that threshold, even if they stop some, then they lose the ability to determine everyone's fate. Determine fate in the main timeline, sure, i guess, but in the new multiverse, anything goes. Though as i said before, i feel like the multiverse may have already existed, the Time Keepers were just trying to keep a lid on it, so....

As for why the door was left open, my guess is they hope to recruit this Loki to their side, and maybe a side of framing him. Like, the other agents, they all assumed Loki had probably betrayed them, when, in fact, TVA Loki was fighting the other Loki. Though Loki may have intentions of dismantling the TVA in the long run, but in that moment, he had done nothing to harm them at all. He even seemed concerned when B-15 was knocked out. So it would not take much to turn the TVA against him. B-15 knocked out, and then seeing Loi excape through the door would apparently be enough for them to fear the worst, even if Loki has every intention of stopping what's going on.

and yes, the duplicate vs illusion explanation was likely another Chekov's Gun, it is likely to come into play later. So, that's aura scanner that destroys robots, maybe that stewardess on the DB Cooper flight, the daggers that got put in B-15's locker for things that probably will come back later.

Actually, Jaimie Alexander was in Atlanta while Loki was being filmed. so.... she was available. she may even appear later. I mean yeah, i know she is in Thor, and remained herself, but we are talking an alternate Loki anyway, so no reason that alternate could not have taken over her body in an alternate universe, while the main universe Sif is still doing just fine. But yeah, I am a pretty visual person, so a character's appearance is important to me. And when they cast people that don't look like the comics, i just can't connect to them in the same way. I just get really attached to the visuals. Like costume, whatever, i can deal with that as long as they keep enough nods to the original like colour scheme and stuff. And obviously you will never be able to duplicate facial features 100% even if they are consistent in the comics (which they usually aren't, but still typically adhere to a range of face types) But changing major physical attributes, they stop feeling like the same character, to me. If it's a minor character, this isn't a problem but... I mean, yeah in the comics Loki's been everything from a old looking guy to a woman to a kid to a young guy, but there's story reasons for those changes, (and Loki is canonically a shapeshifter, but talking the sort of base forms) so you can kinda get eased into them. And they still at least kept the black hair, green eyes etc. consistent. If Hiddleston has to dye his hair/ wear a wig, why shouldn't she? Though, that may be the case here, where there is a story reason, as mentioned she may be mind controlled, like those other people were. We'll see i guess.

I also didn't like the little nubbin horns, as an aside. I think if you are gonna do horns, you should at a minimum have them be a few inches long, or it looks goofy.

[rpmaluki]

As a goal, they probably just want to create universes where their fate isn't pre-determined. Create enough timelines that the TVA can't stop them ALL from hitting that threshold, even if they stop some, then they lose the ability to determine everyone's fate. Determine fate in the main timeline, sure, i guess, but in the new multiverse, anything goes. Though as i said before, i feel like the multiverse may have already existed, the Time Keepers were just trying to keep a lid on it, so....

As for why the door was left open, my guess is they hope to recruit this Loki to their side, and maybe a side of framing him. Like, the other agents, they all assumed Loki had probably betrayed them, when, in fact, TVA Loki was fighting the other Loki. Though Loki may have intentions of dismantling the TVA in the long run, but in that moment, he had done nothing to harm them at all. He even seemed concerned when B-15 was knocked out. So it would not take much to turn the TVA against him. B-15 knocked out, and then seeing Loi excape through the door would apparently be enough for them to fear the worst, even if Loki has every intention of stopping what's going on.

and yes, the duplicate vs illusion explanation was likely another Chekov's Gun, it is likely to come into play later. So, that's aura scanner that destroys robots, maybe that stewardess on the DB Cooper flight, the daggers that got put in B-15's locker for things that probably will come back later.

Actually, Jaimie Alexander was in Atlanta while Loki was being filmed. so.... she was available. she may even appear later. I mean yeah, i know she is in Thor, and remained herself, but we are talking an alternate Loki anyway, so no reason that alternate could not have taken over her body in an alternate universe, while the main universe Sif is still doing just fine. But yeah, I am a pretty visual person, so a character's appearance is important to me. And when they cast people that don't look like the comics, i just can't connect to them in the same way. I just get really attached to the visuals. Like costume, whatever, i can deal with that as long as they keep enough nods to the original like colour scheme and stuff. And obviously you will never be able to duplicate facial features 100% even if they are consistent in the comics (which they usually aren't, but still typically adhere to a range of face types) But changing major physical attributes, they stop feeling like the same character, to me. If it's a minor character, this isn't a problem but... I mean, yeah in the comics Loki's been everything from a old looking guy to a woman to a kid to a young guy, but there's story reasons for those changes, (and Loki is canonically a shapeshifter, but talking the sort of base forms) so you can kinda get eased into them. And they still at least kept the black hair, green eyes etc. consistent. If Hiddleston has to dye his hair/ wear a wig, why shouldn't she? Though, that may be the case here, where there is a story reason, as mentioned she may be mind controlled, like those other people were. We'll see i guess.

I also didn't like the little nubbin horns, as an aside. I think if you are gonna do horns, you should at a minimum have them be a few inches long, or it looks goofy.

I saw someone claim this is actually not Lady Loki but the Enchantress, despite dressing like Loki. If Jaimie was in Atlanta, I hope she does show up and we see her as a Lady Loki variant at least, if this one is not LL after all. I'm definitely with you on the visual cues. It is important to maintain a common "look" and yes with Tom dying his hair but going f' it with other variants, not thrilled about this. She didn't connect with me and I hate that.

[Raye]

watching the supermarket scene again, there was one point where Loki says to himself 'I wouldn't treat me like this' which may have been a subtle clue there's more to this than it appears. I hope so, i think her actually being Enchantress/Sylvie while there is another Loki working even further behind the scenes could work here, and would provide good plot symmetry, if He Who Remains is yet to be revealed as the true founder of the TVA and the Time Keepers as his creations.

[Yoruno]

It’s interesting that her horn is broken, just like in AoA.
As for the the duplicate vs illusion explanation, I found out it had been offered by Tom himself, and I think it mostly serves to conclude the long argument among the fans, why some of Loki's projections are material (T1 Jotunheim scene) while some are not (T3). Clever.
Whoops, someone noticed that her TVA file says Sylvie Laufeydottir. Nice. That means she was a variant since the moment she was born. Probably adopted by a different family.

[Raye]

hm... though which way did the adoption go, in that case? For most of the MCU, Loki's gone by Loki Odinson, because he did not know who his birth parents were. It wasn't until this show that he was called Laufeyson. Hell, Loki's even used both in the comics, starting recently, just the other way around. Went by Laufeyson for the longest time, but then this past year, he starts going by Odinson, presumably because he values that family more. So born to Laufey, adopted by someone else, or adopted by Laufey? it could go either way, cus Loki's used both birth and adoptive parents for the last name. Also, in the comics, when Loki was a female, they still went by Loki, unless pretending to be someone else completely. Not sure if it is technically supposed to be a gender neutral name, but it is kinda treated as such in the comics. So not sure why she'd have a different first name.

But unless she is a secret sister or something that co-existed alongside Loki this whole time without his knowledge, like Hela or Angela, this brings up the same problem. If she was a variant since birth.... that implies her timeline has been around just as long. Assuming she lives as long as other Asgardians, then that timeline been around for potentially hundreds if not thousands of years, once again showing that the 'sacred timeline' can not be the only one. Could she maybe be upset that her timeline is not considered the 'sacred timeline' and thus is not as cosmically significant? Upset that Loki rather than Sylvie is the one everyone pays attention to? the variants shown in the briefing were all male, they assumed male when talking about the variant leading up to the reveal. Despite being marked as 'fluid' on is booking form, the TVA does seem to consider male to be the dominant way Loki presents, and to be fair, that has been the case in both the MCU stuff and comics most of the time, Loki's fluid, but.... leans heavily towards male most of the time, and generally seems to prefer being referred to in that way rather than neutral, using female pronouns only when physically in a female body. (tho in the recent solo, said they were 'all acceptable' so kinda just doesn't care) Just not 100% of the time. But, technically, they really should have been open to the possibility of a woman.

[Ascended]

Really enjoyed this episode. I'm still getting serious X Files vibes from this show, and I'm adoring it.

So, the alternate Loki's we saw (viking, Hulk, etc).

But the TVA tries to prune timelines before events change enough to create a branch, so.... where did they come from? If what the TVA says is true, there should not be any timelines with differences large enough for those variants to exist.

The "real" Loki in 2019 wouldn't have recognized a Loki cosplaying as Fox Mulder either. I don't think we should be surprised at the variety here, we're talking about a god who's been alive for thousands of years and has spent most of it causing chaos; there must be a *ton* of moments in Loki's life where a branch could be created if things twist just a little out of shape. And a branch is, by design, a large divergence from the intended path so large divergences in the replicants should be expected.

I don't think there's any correlation between time passing, as we understand it, and a potential branch breaking away from the sacred timeline. Those variant Loki's could come from any moment in his history. After all, we saw (presumably) a Peggy Carter brought into the TVA at the same time as Loki, but Peggy's been dead for years.

As for the time keepers and TVA....there's no doubt in my mind that things are not as they seem. I won't really bother hypothesizing on what the deal is but I'm pretty confident in saying that sooner or later, Mobius is gonna find out his whole life is a lie.

Regarding Cap and Peggy

Like knowing what we do about Cap and his personality (and Peggy's involvement in Big Things), seems unlikely he would live a quiet little life.

I'm not as convinced about that. Steve knew exactly how dangerous screwing with time is. Given everything he had gone through in Endgame, do you really think he'd risk everything just to be a secret hero in the 50's? One who knows that, if he does anything too big, will absolutely cause a branch and potentially damn a entire timeline to unintended consequences? I think Steve is more responsible and intelligent than that, and this was the sacrifice he had to make; in order to retire with Peggy, Steve had to give up Captain America, for real and for good, no matter what.

Maybe Steve and Peggy were in a branch (and I like the theory that the big bad replicant is from that timeline), but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Actually, I'm not sure if we saw anyone cross branches via the quantum realm at all, did we? We saw the Avengers create the beginnings of some, and Steve likely would've entered those briefly, long enough to return to the stones and put history back on course with the sacred timeline (same as the TVA agents this episode). Thanos caused a branch when he jumped from 2014 to 2023, but he "landed" in the sacred timeline. We know the quantum realm allows travel in the sacred timestream, but could it allow access to completely different, fully formed branches?

Couple random thoughts.

What if these timelines are "branches" in a slightly more literal sense? Bringing Loki back around to the original myths, what if the TVA is pruning Yggdrasil itself? It'd be a fun heroic turn if Loki ends up saving the World Tree, especially considering the amount of pain he's found in its roots.

If this all leads into incursions and a potential White Event, I'm gonna be pretty gods damned psyched.

[Yoruno]

I also think that her existence alone is the proof that other timelines exist. As well as the other Lokis shown, she's a variant from the moment she was born, so there was no split, no stealing an Infinity stone or anything, no "being late to work", no action, just the state.