Loki Appreciation 2021

[Raye]

I guess you've read this, but, anyway, I found this extract from Cates' interview quite interesting:

The new take on this character that Kieron [Gillen] developed is that he lulls you into a false sense of security where you as the reader believe Loki. So sometimes what ends up happening now is he ends up lying to you, and betraying you the reader. He becomes much more personal as opposed to this grand bad guy who has all these schemes about superheroes and stuff. So you fall into that same trap that Thor and everyone else has fallen into of forgiving, trusting, and being betrayed over, and over again. To me, that's who Loki is.

If the writers insist that Loki can't (and doesn't want to) change, why do we expect a different approach from the readers?

Was that from his interview from around when he was writing Dr Strange, though? I remember him saying something like that back then, but can't find a recent interview with him where he talks about Loki. (he seems to be in Hulk mode at the moment, understandably)

Because, if you remember, Loki didn't actually end up being the bad guy, exactly. Cates was lying. sort of. I mean Loki did lie about acquiring the position honestly, he had tricked Strange, yes. But his intention in doing so was to fix magic. His predictions at the end also all came true. Just saying, it was more complicated than Loki pretending to be a good guy but he was actually the bad guy. Sure, Strange was far from pleased about what had happened, but Loki DID accomplish something good, even if his methods were... questionable.

[Yoruno]

Yes, it's from Dr Strange interview, but I doubt Cates has changed his approach a lot.
Take this Bats incident. To me as a reader it was absolutely clear that Loki wasn't attempting to kill the poor dog, and who knows what he had to do in order to bring his ghost to Midgard. In Infinity Quest, Loki and Bates get on pretty well, but in Cates' run, the dog hates him, so the issue is sorta unearthed again. Regarding the recent discussion of the cancelled solo, after reading this interview I suspect that Kibblesmith saw Loki as someone taking the right way (although sometimes by the wrong means), while Cates still wants Loki to be running circles. I really hope I'm wrong and you're right with your shift theory, but... you know, I remember Ewing saying something similar, something about AoA being told from Loki's POV, giving the reader a distorted image of his probably-not-so-pure intentions.

[Raye]

I think all the main writers, Gillen, Ewing, Aaron, Cates, and Kibblesmith, were putting forward a more gray area take where he had good intentions, but he has bad habits and his methods could use work. But they had him at somewhat different shades of gray, and had different ideas about whether he could further improve or not. It's possible Cates is more pessimistic on that front, but I dunno. The Bats thing could be explained easily enough as just Cates not having read the Infinity Quest thing, so he didn't know that Loki and Bats had kinda made peace with each other. (though you'd kinda think he'd want to keep tabs on a character he'd created) But in any case, that the characters don't like Loki doesn't bother me, it makes sense given his history, and could create some interesting scenarios if Loki really is trying, but no one believes it. I mean that's pretty much why he felt he had to trick his way into the Sorcerer Supreme position in the first place, he knew damn well that no one would trust him with a spell of that kind of power, so he figured if he was going to fix magic, he'd have to steal it. Also worth noting that the Dr Strange story happened prior to War of the Realms, and it was during that when Loki had his little Hero's Journey speed run, so Cates was talking about Loki prior to him having some epiphanies. Cates attitude towards Loki may have also changed once he had him for a longer stint than an arc, and actually had power to do some substantial character development with him. I know Loki hasn't figured into things too much yet, but I think he will come into things more strongly going forward, and I'm going to remain optimistic. Am I being duped by Loki? maybe, but it's not much fun to read the stories while expecting the worst. I do have doubts that, if he does get Thor's position, that it will be like, permanent, though. that is a very big change for both Thor and Loki, and Marvel is skittish about big lasting changes, especially regarding some of their higher tier characters like Thor. Loki could maybe get away with more change, like he has over the past 10 years or so, because he's a supporting character. But Thor... a bit more iffy. But it can still be fun while it lasts.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

He did, and yes it was cut short, but not by the quarantine, it got cancelled before any of that started. Based on what happened in the book, the themes it was exploring, and some things Kibblesmith said on twitter, my impression is that it was cancelled because it would have conflicted with the story Cates wanted to tell with Thor. I don't remember the exact wording, but Kibblesmith said something on twitter about how the ideas he had for the book ended up being 'too good' or something like that, and in context... yeah, he and Cates probably hit on the same basic ideas, and Cates and Thor took priority, so Loki was cancelled. In the cancelled solo, it had Loki wrestling with the conflicts of wanting to go to Midgard and do stuff there, and trying to be a good guy, (though in somewhat.... let's say 'unconventional' ways) and it was very similar to what Thor is going through now as King of Asgard, where trying to be king and be a hero at the same time is not working. So the characters are flipped, but same idea, and I can see how they couldn't both work at the same time. But that's not all, there was a glimpse of the future, where Loki has Mjolnir and has to fight off an Evil Thor (who got taken over by Ultron, so more like Loki had to fight Ultron with Thor's powers) Also, some foreshadowing with the first issue's cover AND a discussion Loki had with Iron Man, where Loki wanted to join the Avengers, and Iron Man told him he could do so only if Loki came to him with Mjolnir in hand and Loki was like 'fine, deal'. That all pointed to Loki getting Mjolnir, and taking Thor's place. He also made a deal with some cosmic entities, the Children of Eternity, break his fate and no longer be the 'God of Lies' and instead be the hero. The series never got to that place, but it was clearly working towards that before it got the ax. So I think that may have been another conflict that led to the cancellation, because again, Cates is doing the same basic thing, strongly hinting at Loki getting the hammer and taking Thor's place. This is all why it's a bit iffy on how much of the recent solo actually counts, it may be that Marvel is trying to kinda quietly brush it under the rug, so Cates' story can just go forward without having to worry about what happened in Loki's book. Though, Valkyrie also had some conflicting ideas, like it set up Tyr rather than Blake to be the new God of Lies, but that was allowed to continue, kinda, in the form of a couple miniseries, but maybe Aaron just has more clout.

Anyway, that's to say I think because of the likely circumstances surrounding the cancellation, it's not a stretch to think they may try again, but with the writer being fully aware of Cates' plans and working with them rather than against them.

And the MCU is clearly building towards a Young Avengers.... something. It's set up Billy and Tommy in Wandavision (they got un-made, but they can always be re-made in Dr Strange) America Chavez in Dr Straange, got Cassie over in Ant-Man, Kate Bishop in Hawkeye, and you could throw in some other characters that weren't in the YA, but could fit, like Ms Marvel, or Iron Man's daughter. So Kid Loki would fit right in with that. The one concern is how fast do Asgardians (well, frost giant technically, but he apparently aged at the same rate as Thor in the movies) age? They live to be very old, way older than humans, so are their childhoods stretched out? That may pose a problem for allowing Kid Loki ti age up naturally.

Thanks for the info.

If anything they could always push it back. His longevity starts when's he older. I think that's how Wolverine's aging works.

[Raye]

It's possible, yeah. At least in the MCU, I don't think we've ever had it really confirmed how quickly Asgardians age into adulthood, though it appears we may see something about that next episode of Loki's show, since it does seem to flash back to Sylvie's childhood. So we'll see what that reveals. t's just, in my head, it makes sense that they would have a longer childhood.

Oh and about the other discussion, with Dr Strange and all, also keep in mind that Cates really loves his characters to all be deeply flawed and do some bad things, even the characters usually thought of as good guys. So to have Loki do some shady ****, besides being in character (i care more about his intentions than how he accomplishes things, within reason. I think he should be taking sometimes questionable approaches to things in order to still feel like Loki) is not going to make him look all that bad compared to the others, really. Like Strange was an utter ******* in that story. He lied to and kept secrets from Zelma in a way that could have led to her death, in addition to just being a bad friend to her in general. He also lied to and kept secrets from Sentry in a way that could have led to the Void breaking loose and wreaking destruction all over the world. And his solution to defeating Loki, was to steal power from Asgard. That Strange gets labeled the good guy and Loki the bad guy there has more to do with whose name is on the cover and past actions, rather than anything they did within this particular story itself. Loki was actually pretty well behaved compared to Strange, aside from the big deception that got him into the position. But he did treat Zelma pretty well, he was kind to her, and saved her life. The thing with Bats was an accident that he tried to make up for as best he could. He apparently did a good job of Sorcerer Supremeing while searching for that spell, which he used to fix magic for the entire planet, while using a spell that he could have used to give himself pretty much unlimited power, but he didn't.

And now in Thor, we have Thor being extremely stubborn, overly violent to the point where he's attacked and nearly killed family and close friends, and broke Bill's hammer. And I know it was Galactus and all, but the way he just executed him and then used his helmet as a trophy just seemed excessive. And he's being selfish in terms of not wanting to give up his old role/hammer, when it's pretty obvious he really should, if either role is to be done well, and this is going to lead to problems for Asgard and Midgard both. I get where he's coming from, and why he's doing these things, and sympathize, but still. Just saying, if Loki's going to behave badly sometimes, I'm not going to worry too much, cus Thor's behaving pretty badly himself.

[Yoruno]

"Excessive" is the right word, but throwing Blake into the snake dungeon was excessive as well. Both actions are sorta metaphors... yet both are too strong for the respective situations, we'll have to see where Cates is leading them with those.
Meanwhile, the TV show is taking a melodramatic turn which was too cringey to me... but probably it's just me.

[Alpha]

I love the idea of Loki being in love with a female version of himself.

[Digifiend]

Loki is to appear in a Simpsons special on Disney+. And yes, it's Tom Hiddleston voicing him.
https://www.ign.com/articles/the-sim...ki-disney-plus

[Dthirds3]

So Aizen is a version of loki
20210630_121934.jpg

[Raye]

Loki is to appear in a Simpsons special on Disney+. And yes, it's Tom Hiddleston voicing him.
https://www.ign.com/articles/the-sim...ki-disney-plus
(cut the image)

Huh weird. Guess I'll have to watch that.

"Excessive" is the right word, but throwing Blake into the snake dungeon was excessive as well. Both actions are sorta metaphors... yet both are too strong for the respective situations, we'll have to see where Cates is leading them with those.
Meanwhile, the TV show is taking a melodramatic turn which was too cringey to me... but probably it's just me.

I mean, not that it's a contest, but between Thor attacking Bill and what Loki did to Blake... I think Thor did worse, to be frank. Blake had at least earned a punishment with his actions, Loki maybe took it a bit too far (will get into that in a second) but what did Bill do? tried to stop the destruction of a few planets, and Thor nearly kills him, and destroys Stormbreaker, which besides being a weapon of great power that also had sentimental value, also ruined Bill's life by preventing him from changing forms. I know that Thor was under the (mistaken) impression that the fate of the universe was at stake, but come on. And that's not even getting into the planets he destroyed.

But my point was that Cates has a tendency to have flawed characters that make mistakes, especially the core characters, (side characters like Sif or Zelma not so much, not because they are perfect, but because they are not the main focus and serve a different purpose in the story) so it would be unreasonable to expect Loki to behave perfectly. I mean, especially Loki, given his past, I'd expect him to make mistakes under the best of circumstances, all i really care about is that he's trying. And as i mentioned, he's actually not behaving badly compared to some others who are widely regarded to be the good guys. I'm not disappointed in him, honestly, I think he's done pretty good in the two stories by Cates so far, considering. He's screwed up some, yeah, but i mean, he's an ex villain who still has a lot of bad habits, he's going to **** up sometimes, he just is. And Cates having characters behave badly is not for no reason. He's having them **** up so they can realize they made a mistake, and try to fix it and do better. We can see that happening with Thor as he slowly realizes where his actions are creating problems in regards to being king, and that he's lashing out in anger and to try prove he's the toughest guy around, and it's causing harm. And Loki trying to fix himself has been an ongoing process for years, it's going to continue for years yet, and he will likely never be perfect. And if Loki does get the hammer, i mean one of the key aspects of the role is addressing a character flaw. Thor had to address his arrogance. Loki's arrogant as well, but his flaw will likely be different, and given his history and what Cates has done with him so far, it's likely going to be his petty vindictiveness. He's made improvements there, yes, and I think hes a lot less prone to hang on to a grudge for waaaaaaaay too long now, but he still has a tendency to lash out over small slights with disproportionate and sometimes meanspirited retribution. He's refrained from doing anything TOO bad recently, and seems to regret his actions afterward now, but... Just in Cates stuff, he lost his cool and disappeared the Bar With No Doors after he felt he wasn't getting the respect he wanted, he seemed to relish Strange giving him an excuse to lash out and fight him, and he took some petty shots at him during that fight, and now Blake's punishment. Blake did earn a punishment, and earned his new title, it's not like Loki is doing this to someone who is innocent, Blake DID cause a LOT of harm. And as we saw with Loki, it's not like this is something Odin never would have done. But... the specifics are kinda cruel, i won't deny that. But that just may be the thing that comes back to bite Loki in the ass later (when Blake inevitably escapes and comes after him) to help him learn his lesson.

spoilers:

As for the show, I wasn't really big on the Sylvie and Loki stuff, but i suspect it's not quite what it appears. I felt bad for Mobius, i am sure he felt utterly betrayed when he learned the truth, about both the TVA and Renslayer, though I do think he went from true believer to 'lets' tear this place down' awfully quick. B-15 at least had her unlocked memories, so ti would have been a bit more clear to her what had been taken from her. But in any case, I am glad he's learned the truth. I WAS sad about what happened to him afterward though, until we saw the post credits scene. so now I am excited to see the disappeared crew teaming up to take down the TVA. And Kid Loki! Classic Loki! and.... alligator Loki? But also, clearly we (and many of the characters) were wrong about what resetting someone (or something) does, they are nor vaporized, they are sent somewhere else. All to the same place? is this world the dumping ground for reset objects and people? In which case.... is the evidence cart with all the Infinity Stones here? hmmmm.....

end of spoilers

[Seth_Brower]

Just wanted to pop in and say, Yes my oddball theory was wrong, and I'm quite happy about that.
Part of the enjoyment I get for shows is getting to be along for the ride, and if I'm able to puzzle out the solution before it's revealed I'm a little less "in".
I'm good getting it just before they reveal it, I don't want to feel totally dumb, but a couple episodes before would be a failing on their part, so happy that they didn't go my "oooh basic twist" route.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I love the idea of Loki being in love with a female version of himself.

Me too. She doesn't seem to reciprocate tho...lol.

So Aizen is a version of loki
20210630_121934.jpg

Meh...Loki trumps Aizen.

Honestly episode 4 brought the heat. I'm super pumped for the next two.

[Raye]

Just wanted to pop in and say, Yes my oddball theory was wrong, and I'm quite happy about that.
Part of the enjoyment I get for shows is getting to be along for the ride, and if I'm able to puzzle out the solution before it's revealed I'm a little less "in".
I'm good getting it just before they reveal it, I don't want to feel totally dumb, but a couple episodes before would be a failing on their part, so happy that they didn't go my "oooh basic twist" route.

Yeah, I am the same way, (with the comics as well) I won't deny that i can sometimes get a little attached to a pet theory, and that can lead to me being disappointed if it doesn't work out, but I do try to judge things based on what actually happens, rather than being mad if my theories don't pan out. If i am right, great, but speculating can be fun even if I am wrong. And the show so far has surprised me a several times

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Honestly I feel vindicated because of the characters popping up at the end. But I rather not put all my eggs in one basket.

[Raye]

I was expecting Kid Loki and older Loki (though I was leaning more towards him being more similar to King Loki, or have a more movie inspired costume, but... close enough) based on casting, and the Young Avengers speculation, but can't say i expected this particular scenario for how they were included. Also, it finally dawned on me. We've seen one of them before, and we just never realized it was a variant Loki. In the very first trailer no less. Same clip that possibly shows modern comics Loki (but could also be President Loki, it's hard to tell. but he's got black arm guards with buckles on, which President Loki didn't seem to have)



I mean, that's definitely the big one, which some are speculating is based somewhat on Sigurd (which technically should be more of a Thor variant but... whatever) so. My guess is, they get themselves a little team, but President Loki is not part of it, and they go to pay him a visit, to recruit him or... something. and then a fight breaks out. No clue where it goes from there.

President Loki as we have seen before has also made himself a little post apocalyptic nest there, filled with odd knickknacks. Many people assumed it was because he got elected and then the world went to ****. But now I'm thinking, this is a variant universe, and he's just another variant, likely pruned because of the election, and he got dumped here just like the others. Mobius did say they'd pruned more Lokis than anyone else, so if that is what this world is, it ought to be crawling with Lokis. It could also explain the Polybius machine, the Eldridge, and other odd things around the place, if everything on this world is basically not supposed to exist in the 'sacred timeline' (which is probably still a thing, even though the TVA are a bunch of liars, i mean Mobius and the rest believed in what they were doing, so i don't think it could have ALL been fake) then odd urban legends like that could fit in. Maybe Nexus events can sometimes be remembered in a vague way, leading to urban legends. And of course, there will be other characters that got pruned wandering about the place, so Mobius is still out there, Loki just needs to find him, and we may get some Endgame explanations here too regarding any pruned timelines they caused