Loki Appreciation 2021

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

If Tyr wasn't stuck in Helheim, you could've used him as a rival for Loki when he's the Champion.

[rpmaluki]

I'm not saying Sylvie did nothing, or that she had no motivations, it's clear she did go around killing a lot of Minutemen and that she was furious at having her life stolen. Just saying, there are some odd details which might indicate Kang may have been more directly involved in pushing her in that direction and/or getting her captured by the TVA. She could have killed all the minutemen in that church, then Kang comes along and plants the clue that leads Loki and Mobius to the Roxxcart, for instance. She visits the 31st century and Kang (in disguise presumably, since she did not recognize him) maybe subtly plants an idea, stuff like that. He knew everything they would say not just because he foresaw it, but because he had a hand in planning it, and that could have involved direct (but subtle) action at times to make sure things went the way he wanted.

So you mean TOWR basically "setup" Sylvie for his own purposes? He was manipulating them through their circumstance so their actions would lead them to where he kind of wanted/expected/ultimately hoped they'd be. If so, I agree. It's just the word "frame" has a specific connotation of innocence that I wasn't feeling matched Sylvie's situation.

[Raye]

Ah, yeah. I guess 'framed' was the wrong word to use there, sorry if it caused confusion!

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As for Sylvie's actions, her whole life was alone, defined the initial trauma, which was reinforced literally every day. She was taught as a child that she couldn't trust anyone, and that held true until midway through the show. They even made that explicit in this final episode. From her perspective, doubt that it was the right thing was not enough to overcome an indeterminate number of years (could be 30, could be 3000) of knowing it was right to kill the people responsible for stealing and hunting her. From Sylvie's perspective, the maybe of a jillion Kang variants did not offset the definite of the jillion people this particular variant had kidnapped, killed, tortured, and hunted. Story-wise, that really shows how much Loki has grown. In the end, he was more concerned with the larger picture than his own. However, both of them had to do a bad thing for a good reason. It was just that they disagreed as to which bad thing was worse and which good reason was better. This is mirrored again in He Who Remains's story, since he did a bad thing for a good reason from his perspective.

Yeah, Sylvie was still at the point where she just assumed everyone was playing some kind of con, acting selfishly at her expense, so she had to do the same back at them. also, yeah, she had dedicated her whole life to reaching this moment, it wasn't something she could be talked down from. But s still did think Loki just wanted a throne. Loki had learned to think of more than just himself, consider other people, so he could accept that other people might be acting based on things beyond self interest as well. It was really nicely set up, really.

Also, this is a Kang who, like Sylvie, has been all alone at the end of time for an indeterminate but very long time. He seems to hold the history of an entire universe in his head. And he's at the moment where he stops knowing what will happen. A little loopy is to be expected. And the show made that pretty explicit with the kintsugi styling of his entire citadel. He is cracked and barely, though artfully, keeping it together.

That's a nice catch on the kintsugi stuff!

For the comics narrative archetype swap, first, I'm super excited that years of expecting this seem to be coming to fruition. I am also fairly sure that Mjolnir will be adjusted in form in some way to fit Loki's style of being The Champion. I don't think Loki's status as king is a problem. So far, he's basically shirked that responsibility anyway, with few to no consequences. Part of the champion role is also proving worth to rule, so it may play a role, but it's a different problem from Thor's. King of Asgard also comes with a bunch of responsibilities, both story-wise and in-universe, that don't come with being king of anything else.

I was thinking of the monarch in the MU and quite a few of them rule over their people while also playing the role of champion for them (Black Bolt and Black Panther come to mind) but things on Asgard necessitate the two roles be divorced. As monarch, Odin has stepped in on occasion while Thor went about his business with fervour and dedication but it was never in doubt which role was which. So it makes sense for there to be a conflict of interest in him trying to hold on to both at the same time. They've set a president. Loki being king beside his brother doesn't need to follow the same rule because of the position he's already in, in being a Jotun by nature and an Asgardian by nurture. The duality of character is already established. Whether he shirks his responsibilities on Jotunheim on not, should not influence his responsibilities on Asgard, though I feel it will ultimately be too much for him to do. I feel like he'll eventually stepped down as king but also want him to pay a little more attention to Jotunheim and kind start the ball rolling with regards to changing Jotun nature and culture for better before he does. If he does become the next champion, I would prefer he not slip into the role similarly to Jan which I feel was rather forceful. She was literally dubbed female Thor and I'm not interested in Loki becoming a new "Thor". Him lifting the hammer is awesome and I love the notion of other heroes seeing Loki in a new role and acknowledging it but at the same time I don't want to lose what makes me love this character and his rather distinct sense or self. If they end up reworking mjolnir to fit Loki as oppose to "breaking" Loki to fit mjolnir, I will be more than satisfied.

Yeah, i think the Asgard King role just necessitates that it be separate from the Champion role, if you accept that the repeating narrative is a thing. Because if you look back, you can see that part of the Champion's role is that they defy the King at times. I mean how many times have Thor and Odin come into conflict over what is the correct course of action? Part of the role seems to be to act as a counterbalnace to keep the King in check, and vice versa. This is impossible if one person is trying to do both at once. You need two characters, with different outlooks and priorities.

And yeah, I'd like to see a bit more focus on the Frost Giant aspect, but we will likely need a new solo to get that, just not enough place in a book about Thor to really get into that. But Donny Cates did drop an intriguing hint (since deleted, Marvel may have thought it was too much to tease) where he said we would see more of Throg, but not necessarily in the pages of Thor.... so, could there be a spinoff book coming? The only other book he's writing for Marvel right now is Hulk, and Throg i mean, maybe, but.... My hope is a Loki solo, maybe in a revival of JIM (if he takes the role, having him do it in JIM would be fitting since that is where Thor's first Marvel stories were. and of course Loki has a connection to JIM as well thanks to Gillen's excellent run there) and Throg is a supporting character. This is also apparently the cover for issue 18:

https://twitter.com/thorofficial/sta...94022493392911

So, like I'm wondering... We know Thor is having trouble seeing Loki as anything but the person he used to be, so he is unlikely to just give Loki the role, right? Thor's first instinct will probably be to give it to a character, or characters, that are more like him. Throg, Bill, etc. But we have also had too many teases and instances of foreshadowing with Loki lifting the hammer, and him officially renouncing his old role, to ignore. So I'm wondering if the issues following Revelations will be Thor instating a sort of Thor Corps, where it's whittled down to the final candidate by the end? Cus, as much as I love Throg, I do have a really hard time picturing Marvel making that the new status quo, you know? And I think maybe Thor has to realize that the role has to be something a bit different now, but he won't get that at first. He kept describing it as being a 'Warrior' but I am not so sure a 'warrior' is what's called for anymore.

If Tyr wasn't stuck in Helheim, you could've used him as a rival for Loki when he's the Champion.

they actually did set this up in Valkyrie shortly before Cates did the Blake story! and I agree, he would have been an excellent fit, but apparently Cates wanted to go with Blake...

[rpmaluki]

Ah, yeah. I guess 'framed' was the wrong word to use there, sorry if it caused confusion!


Yeah, Sylvie was still at the point where she just assumed everyone was playing some kind of con, acting selfishly at her expense, so she had to do the same back at them. also, yeah, she had dedicated her whole life to reaching this moment, it wasn't something she could be talked down from. But s still did think Loki just wanted a throne. Loki had learned to think of more than just himself, consider other people, so he could accept that other people might be acting based on things beyond self interest as well. It was really nicely set up, really.



That's a nice catch on the kintsugi stuff!




Yeah, i think the Asgard King role just necessitates that it be separate from the Champion role, if you accept that the repeating narrative is a thing. Because if you look back, you can see that part of the Champion's role is that they defy the King at times. I mean how many times have Thor and Odin come into conflict over what is the correct course of action? Part of the role seems to be to act as a counterbalnace to keep the King in check, and vice versa. This is impossible if one person is trying to do both at once. You need two characters, with different outlooks and priorities.

And yeah, I'd like to see a bit more focus on the Frost Giant aspect, but we will likely need a new solo to get that, just not enough place in a book about Thor to really get into that. But Donny Cates did drop an intriguing hint (since deleted, Marvel may have thought it was too much to tease) where he said we would see more of Throg, but not necessarily in the pages of Thor.... so, could there be a spinoff book coming? The only other book he's writing for Marvel right now is Hulk, and Throg i mean, maybe, but.... My hope is a Loki solo, maybe in a revival of JIM (if he takes the role, having him do it in JIM would be fitting since that is where Thor's first Marvel stories were. and of course Loki has a connection to JIM as well thanks to Gillen's excellent run there) and Throg is a supporting character. This is also apparently the cover for issue 18:

https://twitter.com/thorofficial/sta...94022493392911

So, like I'm wondering... We know Thor is having trouble seeing Loki as anything but the person he used to be, so he is unlikely to just give Loki the role, right? Thor's first instinct will probably be to give it to a character, or characters, that are more like him. Throg, Bill, etc. But we have also had too many teases and instances of foreshadowing with Loki lifting the hammer, and him officially renouncing his old role, to ignore. So I'm wondering if the issues following Revelations will be Thor instating a sort of Thor Corps, where it's whittled down to the final candidate by the end? Cus, as much as I love Throg, I do have a really hard time picturing Marvel making that the new status quo, you know? And I think maybe Thor has to realize that the role has to be something a bit different now, but he won't get that at first. He kept describing it as being a 'Warrior' but I am not so sure a 'warrior' is what's called for anymore.



they actually did set this up in Valkyrie shortly before Cates did the Blake story! and I agree, he would have been an excellent fit, but apparently Cates wanted to go with Blake...

Which feels so random honestly. Say all of this speculation comes to fruition, Loki will need a counterbalance to his heroic role (more so,he'll need his own book. JiM could very well suffice if an outright "Loki" book is too much of a deterrent to some readers).

I have been wondering if Marvel is finally taking advantage of MCU's popularity by not undoing/resetting to villain Loki. While there's no direct/definitive connection between the two, it's hard not to imagine one influencing the other to some degree. Sure MCU Loki's time is almost up after TH has played the role for over ten years now. I don't think there's more that can be done with his character past the S2 and DS:MoM appearances but I don't think it's lost on Marvel that they can still milk this particular IP for all it's worth, so why not have his MU counterpart stay the course he's been on since JiM and even better, actually make him a hero, not in the traditional sense of the Avengers or his brother but no less a hero regardless? It's probably not easy to do this with a secondary character better known as a villain for several decades, but perhaps, they are giving it a genuine shot, it's just that it's getting lost in the midst of Thor being the main draw and protagonist of the books. It could explain why we're getting this in drips and drabs.

I'm thinking of the end of the show and the fight between the two Loki's and how he was thinking of the big picture (for the first time since ever) despite the fact that what was being asked of them was still terrible because look at Sylvie. It's similar to what Aaron was probably writing for Loki during his run. I'm not saying he needs to do horrible things for the right reasons necessarily but show that even Loki's actions are/can be heroic once you look past his methods. Show Loki stepped a lot closer to that heroic role without losing himself in the interim and did it a lot quicker than movie Loki, I think this could be explored further. So I have been thinking that this whole role swapping/changing theme of the books is partly to do with exploring not just Thor as king, but to see how far they can push Loki's character at the same time in an unfamiliar but intriguing role for him. They have told every villain story that can be told with Loki, but him as a hero is obviously fresh and certainly worth exploring.

The Big 2 comics are well known for their "illusion" of change but sooner or later, they will have to actually change in order to keep these IPs relevant and I think the MCU has inadvertently forced the comics side to rethink their characters beyond just maintaining the status quo.

[Raye]

I think the Illusion of Change's time is coming to an end, honestly. It still happens, some writers and editors still firmly believe in an unchanging status quo, but there are more and more newer writers who are more about lasting change, and you do see more instances of changes sticking, even to major characters, Loki being one of the more notable examples. I just think it's outdated, and it is falling out of fashion. The publishers still have to be careful to not damage the characters in a way that makes people dislike them, of course, and death will probably remain cheap for quite a while, but face turns rarely have that kind of problem, really. But if Loki had done this face turn a few years earlier, it probably would not have stuck, they'd have likely reverted him to villain very quickly. But it happened kinda as attitudes were changing, the story itself was a critique of unchanging status quo, and he landed in the care of an editor who seems to like lasting change, so Loki got lucky. And now it's at the point it will be very hard to undo, i mean it's been over 10 years that he's been on this path, and it was self driven, not some magical change in personality or something, like Axis or whatever, so it's not something you can just undo overnight. And yeah, the movies will likely help there. It's not what you usually think of when it comes to synergy, it was a sort of give and take where, when the MCU started, Loki was just left to do his own thing, cus he was in Kid Loki mode, so there was not going to be any way to make that match the movies without aging him up, which they did do eventually, but while he was in Kid mode, all this character development happened, and they seemed unwilling to just throw it away.... so he got to just kinda superficially resemble the movie version, a little bit, which isn't a big deal. Then the movie started borrowing elements from, though not directly adapting, the more recent comics, and now, he's done a face turn in the MCU as well (twice!) which will probably make people more ok with seeing him as reformed in the comics. Even though the comics got to this point on their own, in a different way. (though they did use similar themes of fate etc.) So I think Loki's in a pretty good place, for having his turn stick, and continuing to move him forward. And yeah, the MCU will likely help make it stick.

But yeah, it's a trickle right now because he's a supporting character in Thor's book, he needs a solo to really get into it again, cus, I mean, it IS Thor's book, it's to be expected that the focus will be on him for the most part. I really hope they are building to that. I would have liked it to coincide with the show, but... better late than never! Hoping that around issue 20 or so of Thor, when all the hammer stuff is resolved, and the new Champion character is revealed, we can get that.

And yeah, I do think Loki was in a similar spot during Aaron's run. he was stuck in the villain role, but figured he could at least do what appeared to be bad things but try to accomplish something good while doing them. He did some really shitty things during that time, but it was clear he was taking a bigger picture approach, and meant well, and did accomplish some good. though mostly in Cates hands, in the Dr Strange arc. Stole the Sorcerer Supreme position by lying, yes...... but he did fix magic. But while I think that was an interesting step on his journey, it's not a place i want him to be at forever. I'm hoping he can continue to make progress and do good things more openly, though still in a uniquely unconventional Loki way. Still a lil shady. I'd like to see him maybe put in a position where it is acknowledged he is the Champion, though probably after some resistance to the idea from Thor etc. so they expect him to be.... like Thor. But Loki sees other ways to accomplish things and does that. Still does good, still accomplishes the goal, just not in a way Thor would have done.

[rpmaluki]

Yeah, there's obviously a limit to how much a character can change without damaging him/her for readers. There's been some people resisting this face turn for Loki but I feel they are outnumbered by the more accepting ones and this is honestly good for the character. It moves him past the role of servicing Thor and his buddies as canon fodder and I couldn't be happier. I hope they never revert him.

[Raye]

There definitely are some who want Loki reverted, but I think it's mostly Thor fans who want things in Asgard in general reverted to some older 'classic' status quo, and Loki being the bad guy is part of that. So it comes with Heimdall coming back and all the other role switches undone as well. But fuck em, what they want is boring. Those old stories are great and all, but they will always be there to read, I don't need to see them repeated. Loki's way more interesting to me if he's on this journey of self improvement. And he's still got a ways to go, so that can last a long time yet. And I think this story with Thor giving up his hammer is good for Thor, as well. It will give us some time to show that he isn't just about being the guy who can lift the hammer. And that he gave it up voluntarily, (sort of, it took a bit of a push) so he's not obsessed with trying to get it back, will help a lot there too. Though I do think Thor is a bit.... high strung at the moment, so hopefully he calms down a bit once he settles into things, and we can get into things there. I don't think Thor should be defined by the hammer. Loki getting it is a little different, in that he's already pretty well developed without it, and i think it would kinda mean more to him as a symbol, at least short term.

[rpmaluki]

There definitely are some who want Loki reverted, but I think it's mostly Thor fans who want things in Asgard in general reverted to some older 'classic' status quo, and Loki being the bad guy is part of that. So it comes with Heimdall coming back and all the other role switches undone as well. But fuck em, what they want is boring. Those old stories are great and all, but they will always be there to read, I don't need to see them repeated. Loki's way more interesting to me if he's on this journey of self improvement. And he's still got a ways to go, so that can last a long time yet. And I think this story with Thor giving up his hammer is good for Thor, as well. It will give us some time to show that he isn't just about being the guy who can lift the hammer. And that he gave it up voluntarily, (sort of, it took a bit of a push) so he's not obsessed with trying to get it back, will help a lot there too. Though I do think Thor is a bit.... high strung at the moment, so hopefully he calms down a bit once he settles into things, and we can get into things there. I don't think Thor should be defined by the hammer. Loki getting it is a little different, in that he's already pretty well developed without it, and i think it would kinda mean more to him as a symbol, at least short term.

Absolutely.

Definitely.

[Raye]

Yeah, I think that either Mjolnir should change somehow to reflect the change in roles, or it's just a temporary thing, where it either gets destroyed (maybe to prevent the Thanos bad future) or it can go back to Thor once things are established, we've learned what Thor's all about without the hammer (and not pining for it) and all that. And Loki can get his own signature weapon. He seems to like swords and daggers, though it is harder to make those non-lethal, so like a staff or something maybe.... he has that big swoopy one, but not like they gave it a name or anything.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

If anything, Loki could settle in as Thor's friendly rival. Like the Vegeta to Thor's Goku. Only thing is you'd have to find a new archenemy for him but that's why the writers get paid the big bucks. There's always Malekith who fulfills a similar role to Loki. They are both trickster villians.

Or you could bring in an outside threat like Remender did. He gave Thor and Apocalypse a previous history during his run on Uncanny Avengers.

[Raye]

Good thing is villains are way easier to make than hero characters, and if one doesn't click, just try another one. And Cates has already set up Blake to fill that role, (I mean, he's gonna escape, obviously) and there is the Thanos tease still. But Thor has lots of baddies in reserve. They could bring in Enchantress, Hela, Tyr, Malekith, etc. So Loki's spot as big bad is pretty replaceable, really. The one thing that can't be replicated is their relationship as brothers, (tho Cates tried to kinda make that a thing with Blake) but antagonists in general are easy. I don't really see any need to revert Loki. Aaron did all of 'God of Thunder' without Loki appearing once, (he was appearing in Young Avengers and Agent of Asgard at that time) and it worked fine. I would prefer Loki appear as a supporting character in Thor's book (and vice versa if Loki has a solo) because I like that aspect of both of them, but I don't think it's necessary that Loki be the villain, specifically.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think Loki's role in the MCU is dependent on how long Hiddleston wants to stay. And he's feels pretty comfortable with the Loki show so I'd imagine they'd find him something to do. Loki's role as an antihero might be permanent. .

Beyond Tyr, Skurge could be used as a Loki rival but that's more of a stretch. There's also someone from the Frost Giants buy I don't know who.

[Raye]

Oh Hiddleston LOVES being Loki. Tho probably only so long he can pull off being immortal. But I've heard that they may be even going for a third season, tho that's not confirmed. And He's supposed to be appearing in Dr Strange, so that's encouraging. So yeah, probably at least a few years. But I don't think the comics depiction is dependent on him staying anti-hero in the MCU, I think it's built up enough momentum to sustain itself, but it does probably help.

But looks like next season of the show won't have the same director, which is a bit sad: https://deadline.com/2021/07/loki-di...-2-1234794552/
Sounds like she only ever intended to stay for the one season though, so not like she was fired or anything, but still.

[juan678]

[Yoruno]

Actually, I've recently become more sceptical of the show concept, and I think it's the first time in my life when I wish there were fewer tropes and less meta, because, unfortunately, I take the character too close to heart (yes, I know, bias is a bad thing when you discuss art). Basically MCU = Kang paving the way for the characters to achieve his goal, and it seems that the character development was secondary, more like a plot device. At least I got this impression after reading the director's interview: https://www.thewrap.com/loki-was-alw...director-says/
I've also read a very profound review in a big sci-fi magazine which concentrated on the tropes used in the show, and they actually came to the same conclusion as Ravonna and Kang: this story has never been Loki's, he's a flea on a dragon's back. The thing is I shouldn't complain because that's how the trickster archetype works, but they weren't going to transform Loki into a trickster. His role in Dr Strange2 might be similar to Cassandra's, he'll be warning everyone but nobody will believe him.
On the other hand, now that he has Season 2, it's no longer necessary for him to be a plot device and I really hope for something good.