Loki Appreciation 2021

[CosmiComic]

I don't think it's possible for Loki to fully make reparation for his actions. This however, should not stop him from doing good today if he's able and willing.

As far as I am aware, he's not called himself a hero. Performing acts that are heroic doesn't necessarily mean he is a hero since that role in comic books is very binary and Loki doesn't fit the role.

I don't see it as a binary. I just don't think it's necessarily good to gloss over one's actions.

He basically stopped the war by killing Laufey, found Thor's lost sister, brought the magic back to the world, killed Nightmare and freed people from his influence, restored the sun and helped it continue burning (although that was in the future). Still not good enough?

I'm talking about addressing the negative actions he's committed in the past. A lot of other characters have saved the world and done good things without having a villainous past.

He died trying to make up for his mistakes. Twice. Yeah, he got better, but by doing so, as Yoruno says, he stopped the war. I think that shows there is more value in having a character trying to do good, than simply punishing them for the wrong they did. You add more good to the world by allowing them to help if they want. And any villain that says 'I'm a hero now' (which Loki never did btw, except during Axis, but that doesn't really count) has to back it up with actions, which Loki has done. It's not just a declaration he made and then did nothing about it. In addition to all that's listed above, he helped stop Gamora from trapping the enrtire universe inside the Soul Stone, then protected the Time stone from falling into the hands of some pretty bad people... And while fixing magic, Strange attacked him with the Void, which, unless it was stopped, could have destroyed the planet. And during that time, the spell needed was locked inside Zelma, Strange's assistant, and to remove it, Loki cold have just killed her, but didn't, he saved her life. An the spell involved taking all magic on the planet into himself, where it could have ended. ultimate power. But no, he put it right back into the planet, jumpstarting magic again, in time for Strange to use that magic during WotR to save thousands of lives.

I mean, yeah, he won't ever fully be able to make up for everything he's done, probably. but at least he's trying. It's not something he can fix with being punished or some grand gesture, and then the slate is wiped clean. It will take time, and as long as he's continuing to do good (though sometimes in unconventional ways. anti-hero, not straight up good guy) it's at least adding good to the world as he tries.

I guess you can look at like that. He has done good, in some ways

[rpmaluki]

But the other characters don't have a past like him so it's easier for them to "fit" that role as you want them to. Loki's addressed some things he's done in YA as well as AoA. To expect every itemised villainous act to be addressed seems too much when the characters around him already know what he's done and don't let it slide just because he's on a different path. He'll always have to deal with that because its the reality of his life. Bringing up his past one issue at time and with no set way in which he can make up for it that doesn't involve him dying sacrificially over and over is not going to benefit anyone unless your goal is to drown him in guilt forever so he never rises to anything worthwhile at all. It seems more like you're calling for punishment more than him making amends.

[Raye]

They haven't glossed it over though. I mean, he hasn't gone around apologizing to everyone he's hurt, tho maybe he could do a bit more of that now that he's not doing the whole double agent 'play the part of a bad guy to infiltrate and learn the bad guys plans, but actually trying to do good' thing anymore. But he has tried to make up for some things that he's done, when possible, at least in the comics. (it's still too soon in the show for any of this) Like in Vote Loki, the reporter character's apartment got destroyed in one of his fights with the Avengers back in the day, and he tried to make up for that when he found out. When he accidentally killed Dr Strange's dog (it sounds terrible but it really was just an accident) he brought it back as a ghost to try and make up for it. But mostly it just acts as part of his motivation to be better, and do some good things, which I think ultimately does more good than punishment or apologies. But it's not as if his past actions are just being swept under the carpet. Yeah, I get that a lot of characters are going to be mad at him and not trust him, and they have every right to feel that way. I'm not saying any of them owe him forgiveness. But if they want punishment rather than accepting him trying to help, I'm sorry but it just starts to look vindictive.

[CosmiComic]

But the other characters don't have a past like him so it's easier for them to "fit" that role as you want them to. Loki's addressed some things he's done in YA as well as AoA. To expect every itemised villainous act to be addressed seems too much when the characters around him already know what he's done and don't let it slide just because he's on a different path. He'll always have to deal with that because its the reality of his life. Bringing up his past one issue at time and with no set way in which he can make up for it that doesn't involve him dying sacrificially over and over is not going to benefit anyone unless your goal is to drown him in guilt forever so he never rises to anything worthwhile at all. It seems more like you're calling for punishment more than him making amends.

Idk if I'm calling for punishment. I'm just wondering how a villain is supposed to pay for their wrongdoings. I supposed dying and coming back is one way.

They haven't glossed it over though. I mean, he hasn't gone around apologizing to everyone he's hurt, tho maybe he could do a bit more of that now that he's not doing the whole double agent 'play the part of a bad guy to infiltrate and learn the bad guys plans, but actually trying to do good' thing anymore. But he has tried to make up for some things that he's done, when possible, at least in the comics. (it's still too soon in the show for any of this) Like in Vote Loki, the reporter character's apartment got destroyed in one of his fights with the Avengers back in the day, and he tried to make up for that when he found out. When he accidentally killed Dr Strange's dog (it sounds terrible but it really was just an accident) he brought it back as a ghost to try and make up for it. But mostly it just acts as part of his motivation to be better, and do some good things, which I think ultimately does more good than punishment or apologies. But it's not as if his past actions are just being swept under the carpet. Yeah, I get that a lot of characters are going to be mad at him and not trust him, and they have every right to feel that way. I'm not saying any of them owe him forgiveness. But if they want punishment rather than accepting him trying to help, I'm sorry but it just starts to look vindictive.

I don't think they need to be vindictive. I'm just wondering if it looks like a "get out of jail free card" if villains become heroes after all that time. How do these he's harmed feel about it? All in all, I'm just wondering if Marvel is being consistent here.

[rpmaluki]

He's already died a couple of times already.

[CosmiComic]

He's already died a couple of times already.

That's true. Maybe that's enough

[Raye]

Idk if I'm calling for punishment. I'm just wondering how a villain is supposed to pay for their wrongdoings. I supposed dying and coming back is one way.



I don't think they need to be vindictive. I'm just wondering if it looks like a "get out of jail free card" if villains become heroes after all that time. How do these he's harmed feel about it? All in all, I'm just wondering if Marvel is being consistent here.

It's not free, though. That implies it's just some simple and inconsequential gesture he did to escape punishment, but it's not. This hasn't been easy for him, he's had to completely overhaul his entire life. And people around him don't exactly like him due to his past (and not saying they have to) which makes it harder for him, so that's kind of an ongoing price he has to pay. Because of that, the list of characters willing to work with him is fairly small, and when they do, it's usually kind of begrudgingly. It's not like he's been welcomed into the fold with open arms. He has to overcome a lot of distrust before they will even allow him to help most of the time. Which is understandable, but is also part of what leads to him being... creative... with his methods sometimes. But while i get being cautious around him, and taking some precautions, and I am sure there are plenty of people who won't be happy about him walking around free, I just don't see what's accomplished by punishing him, when he is demonstrating a willingness to help now. Like, he's a powerful character that can accomplish a lot of good, if he wants. But just punishing him would be preventing that from happening. It might be a bit different if he just wanted to go live a quiet life somewhere while doing nether harm nor good. But he's trying to help, and throwing away that help because it's felt he needs to suffer a bit more would just be detrimental.

[CosmiComic]

It's not free, though. That implies it's just some simple and inconsequential gesture he did to escape punishment, but it's not. This hasn't been easy for him, he's had to completely overhaul his entire life. And people around him don't exactly like him due to his past (and not saying they have to) which makes it harder for him, so that's kind of an ongoing price he has to pay. Because of that, the list of characters willing to work with him is fairly small, and when they do, it's usually kind of begrudgingly. It's not like he's been welcomed into the fold with open arms. He has to overcome a lot of distrust before they will even allow him to help most of the time. Which is understandable, but is also part of what leads to him being... creative... with his methods sometimes. But while i get being cautious around him, and taking some precautions, and I am sure there are plenty of people who won't be happy about him walking around free, I just don't see what's accomplished by punishing him, when he is demonstrating a willingness to help now. Like, he's a powerful character that can accomplish a lot of good, if he wants. But just punishing him would be preventing that from happening. It might be a bit different if he just wanted to go live a quiet life somewhere while doing nether harm nor good. But he's trying to help, and throwing away that help because it's felt he needs to suffer a bit more would just be detrimental.

That's fine, but is it fair to say someone can escape punishment because they're useful?

[Dermie]

That's fine, but is it fair to say someone can escape punishment because they're useful?

In some cases "being useful" IS the designated punishment or consequence of a crime. In terms of real life law and criminals, its the idea behind someone being assigned community service and also work-release programs from prisons.

Loki's situation doesn't fit either of those scenarios exactly--but the principle of making a positive contribution being more worthwhile than a punitive action could still apply.

[CosmiComic]

In some cases "being useful" IS the designated punishment or consequence of a crime. In terms of real life law and criminals, its the idea behind someone being assigned community service and also work-release programs from prisons.

Loki's situation doesn't fit either of those scenarios exactly--but the principle of making a positive contribution being more worthwhile than a punitive action could still apply.

I see what you mean when you put it like that. It's not a one to one comparison, but maybe it can work

[Raye]

Maybe he could be made a member of the Avengers, but on a conditional basis? like he's be on parole or something. He's not allowed to make the plans or anything, just help them when needed, and if he does anything bad, then they could do something about it

[Alkaeus]

Interesting article about the development of the 2016 Vote Loki series: https://www.gamesradar.com/inside-th...-us-president/

Basically, it grew out of a Tom King pitch from around NYCC 2015, and would have had Loki actually win the presidency (this was right after Trump declared his candidacy and it seems no one at Marvel expected him to win). King had to step away from the project after he signed his exclusive with DC, and at one point Chip Zdarsky was set to write it.

[CosmiComic]

Maybe he could be made a member of the Avengers, but on a conditional basis? like he's be on parole or something. He's not allowed to make the plans or anything, just help them when needed, and if he does anything bad, then they could do something about it

That has potential

[Raye]

Huh, sounds like it was going to be quite a bit different. I had kinda assumed they had followed his outline, but apparently not. And that may be for the best. Most glaringly, Loki was gonna get dead. (though it may have been an illusion or something) and also win. (but briefly, it would seem) And seems it would have originally tied in with WotR, though Vote Loki actually ended up releasing quite a bit before WotR, so that points to WotR changing as well, and it would have likely meant Cates Dr Strange story would have not been able to work, so that would have been a shame. But also, he seemed to have been working with a more sinister take on Loki than what we have now, or got during WotR for that matter, which definitely would not have been my preference. Guessing, if it wasn't more of the 'play the part of the bad guy' thing, King was more about the concept and had not really been following the character development. Just goes to show how much things can change over the course of creating a book, and also that we (those of us who enjoy the face turn, i mean) may have been lucky, and that he's just one writer away from reverting. Might have dodged a bullet there. And nothing against Hastings, but I am sad that the Zdarsky thing never happened, I've been wanting him to write a Loki book. I wonder why that didn't happen.

edit - I kinda figured probationary Avenger would be what would happen anyway, to be honest. They don't trust him, so they'd probably have conditions, but it's still been hinted a few places that he might be joining in the future. I haven't been a huge fan of the Avengers book, but still, I think it would be a good step for him.

[Wikoogle]

I am really excited to see how Kang gets integrated into the Incursions.

I am guessing/hoping he will be a Hickman’s Mr. Fantastic type of character, a well intentioned scientist who creates a Council of Kangs (Kang is related to Richard Reed after all).

He unlocks the secrets of the multiverse (and the beyonders running this multiverse simulation) and in doing so threatens the multiverse itself similar to how Einstein expanding our understanding of matter and energy paved the way for the atom bomb.

The multiverse war that Loki series repeatedly talks about is the same thing as the Incursions in the New Avengers arc. Loki is beautifully setting all this up.

Thanos failed at keeping the resources the simulation is taking up under control by pruning the population.

The TVA will likewise fail and the multiverse will remerge and use up way more resources than the Beyonders allocated to the simulation.

The incursions are coming, and Thanos failing and Loki ending the TVA will be the cause, its going to be amazing and its going to make the Infinity War story arc look like a childs game.

Those who read Hickman’s amazing New Avengers storyline about the Illuminati and the Incursions and the Fantastic Four series that led to that storyline will probably agree that this is one of the greatest story arcs in comicbook history.

And with the latest episode’s reveal that someone else is behind the TVA, I cant help but think the Beyonders are ultimately behind the whole thing.

Yes. Kang is likely the immediate leader. But who is behind Kang, Galactus, Thanos and all the similar entities that are constantly driven to prune the omniverse? The same Beyonders that put a Universe ending kill code inside every universe (Molecule Man).

It’s like how we first found out about Thanos in the post credit scene of Avengers 1. We will find out about Kang in the post credits scene of the Loki finale and find out about the Beyonders in the post credit scene of Kang’s film.

Who else cares more about pruning the multiverse and keeping it resource efficient more than the being running the whole thing? The Beyonders are almost certainly behind entities like Thanos and Galactus that serve to keep the multiverse managable...

Many believe that there are certain universal mathematical principles that ALL systems obey. Principles such as evolution, entropy, etc, its called systems theory.

One such principle is that in any system that allows for uncontrolled exponential growth of any entity will very rapidly accelerate towards a tipping point beyond which the system fails altogether, often through cataclysmic events. This is seen in every system, whether we are talking about deer populations in an environment without any effective predators, seizure disorders that occur in children whose brain fail to enter the pruning at the appropriate age, the stock market during a period of extraordinary growth, and the trajectory of global warming that honestly should alarm everyone that understands the simulations. It is also true of life, both in the MCU and in the form that it exists in our reality, a 4th dimensional projection of a 11+th dimensional universe.

And this is precisely why I believe entities like Galactus, Thanos and the TVA exists in the MCU. Now that both Thanos and the TVA has failed, the incursions from Hickman’s storyline are inevitable. I hope that given this context, my post below makes a bit more sense…
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...e-simulation)&