Loki Appreciation 2021

[Raye]

My sister, who read my comics up until she was into her late teens, said she more or less enjoyed the series, but that every time that Tom Hiddleston wasn't on screen the show just lost her interest; and she's not actually a big Hiddleston fangirl or anything, she simply didn't find anyone else that interesting (except Alligator Loki!). Most of the comics references went over her head, and I'm not sure she remembered who Kang was.

I enjoyed the show (with caveats) up until the last episode, which really did feel like the main thing was to set up Kang for the MCU.

I didn't like that Loki was written like the writers had forgotten he's superhumanly strong, or that he lost that spark of mischief and cunning which is part of his appeal. I also felt Sylvie lacked those things, and I didn't feel that Loki and Sylvie had much chemistry, which was a pity as the show kept putting them together. However, overall I thought it was a fun ride, and I always find Hiddleston watchable.



I think Albert might be referring to the original pitch, which as I understand it was to have been a show about Loki traveling through time and having unexpected influences on characters throughout history.

Maybe, though I don't think casual fans/kids would have been keeping up with what the original pitch was, they'd have just been catching trailers and stuff. And the show runners were still under no obligation to stick to early pitches. I just don't think it's fair to make an assumption about a thing, or wish it to be a certain way, and then judge it for not being that, rather than what it actually is. That's not actually judging the project on it's merits, and giving it a fair shake.

And yeah I really liked it overall, but there were things I didn't like about the show, one main thing being the lack of chemistry between Sylvie and Loki (though i think plot wise, she did serve an important part, it's just the romance angle and the actress didn't do it for me) and I would have preferred more time spent on the relationship with Mobius. I just don't let that spoil the rest of it for me, I'm not the kind of person to let an aspect or two that I don't care for spoil the entire thing, that happens with everything, and if I let one aspect spoil everything for me, then I would like nothing. But I think some of the complaints are overblown, kind of ignoring the parts of the show that don't fit with the narrative being presented. Like, I see the 'it wasn't Loki-centered enough' a lot, and I just don't get it, because it was very Loki centered. That it also focused on other aspects is not at all unusual for a solo project of any kind, because characters need arcs, and that will necessitate other characters and a core plot that needs to be built up. It's just the nature of the beast, it can't be focused completely on Loki, without neglecting things like plot. As for Kang, turns out the show wasn't just there to introduce Kang as some people have been saying. He wasn't even a Kang variant initially, it turns out https://screenrant.com/loki-show-jon...kang-antman-3/ He was just He Who Remains, and they liked his casting in Loki, so they MADE him Kang for Ant-Man and beyond, and inserted the Kang references into Loki. But otherwise his part remained the same, because it served Loki's story. Coming face to face with someone who represented a choice between order and chaos. I really don't think his part detracted from Loki's story, because it helped support the narrative they were building, and the themes they were playing with, and the casting situation just shows that the focus wasn't actually about Kang.

My main issue the other day though was the idea that cus one little girl didn't like it, it rendered the show a failure. One person not liking a thing isn't a sign that it's failing, every single one of Marvel's offerings have people who dislike it. It is impossible to make a project that appeals to every single person who may watch it. I am all for making things for kids, but I don't think they need to be the main audience, is all. That will just result in everything feeling all samey, something the MCU already gets criticized for, and people who want something more mature and/or emotional will be left out in the cold. So, a with anything creative, they just have to make what they want to make, and trust that there will be an audience for it. But that audience will not encompass everyone, no matter what they do.

edit - as for the 'typical Marvel good guy' I just don't see it that way. While I do think the comics have struck a better balance between Loki being a good guy and retaining his more mischievous nature, I don't think it was totally lost on the show, even if it took a bit of a back seat. I think next season, even if Herron had stayed on as director, will likely see more playfulness return to the character, as he tries to figure out what's going on. But he was in a tough situation here, which overrode that somewhat in order to facilitate the character development. And Loki has always been emotional, that was his driving force for most of his actions, it's just that the emotion shifted from anger and resentment to other things here. But I thin he will find a balance and regain some of his playfulness now that he's gone through the bulk of his character growth.

edit 2 - oh yeah, and I read the annual, and Loki was not i in it beyond the pages shown in the preview. A bit disappointing, since I would have liked to see how this alt-Thor reacted to present day Loki. but oh well

[CosmiComic]

Yeah, I don't get wanting the MCU to be more "samey" and "kid-friendly" when it gets criticized for that all the time

[Yoruno]

I guess Sylvie's concept art was influenced by AoA Lady Loki:
dmmaz.jpg

[Albert1981]

I never believed Loki was a failure because of one little girl's reaction. One fan's opinion certainly doesn't reflect the wider audiences' opinions on any form of art. And I NEVER said that the MCU movies/shows should be dumbed down for children. I think kids should be treated with respect when it comes to storytelling and I think Marvel Studios has done that very well in my opinion. But I do think opinions of casual fans LIKE that family SHOULD be given weight.

It should be noted that a prime demographic for Marvel movies/shows are children under the age of 12:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...l-black-widow/

James Gunn held deep contempt for some "comic book" people who tried to interfere with his movies and I share that contempt because they have no idea how live-action stuff works. None whatsoever. My problem with time travel/multiverse stories are how convoluted and confusing they can get. That will be INEVITABLE. I must confess, I don't really understand the comments here LIKING that kind of chaos and thinking it to be creative storytelling, but then again I'm not a regular comic book reader.

The performers in Flash, Tenet and Loki have all openly admitted not understanding the intricacies of time travel and multiverses, and I think it's safe to assume that they're ADULTS. Intelligent ones too considering that they have made it so far in the entertainment industry. So, my problem is not only that the "kids" won't understand this stuff, but the fucking grown-ups won't EITHER (and yes, I'm talking about the grown-ups actually IN those movies and shows):

https://www.bustle.com/p/the-flash-1...stuff-13193158

https://movieweb.com/tenet-movie-rob...nfusing-story/

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/254...the-films-plot

https://thedirect.com/article/loki-s...leston-renewal

So yeah, I would rather have Hiddleston's Loki meeting the Wright Brothers, Nicola Tesla and Charlie Chaplin in some wild and zany time travel adventures. Having him meet a dozen versions of HIMSELF is boring to me. No actors and actresses can have that kind of range to make each "variant" distinct. It's not possible. Now I'm holding out hope that Feige doesn't follow the comic books too much by bewildering audiences with that medium's esoteric style of storytelling. If that makes my opinion BORING, then WHATEVER.

[CosmiComic]

Ok, um, it's understandable fans of the comics want the characters to be accurate in the films. Hollywood often tends to make adaptations more generic. Being convoluted isn't necessarily good but neither is too simplistic or familiar.

And Loki's not much of a time traveler in the comics IIRC, so him encountering Kang is already somewhat of a deviation. Meeting all those historical figures could be an interesting show but that's not what Loki's really about

[Albert1981]

Totally agree with you. I certainly didn't mean to cause any offense and I apologize if I did. I absolutely concur with your opinion that the movies/shows MUST and ALWAYS stay true to the themes and spirits of the source material. Every time studios deviated from that model, the movies and shows failed. I just hate it when comic book fans say: "We have read every single comic in existence and will only accept a direct representation of what happened in them." That's lame to me. And I'm with you a HUNDRED PERCENT with the MCU getting samey. The Winter Soldier was great. Why are we watching new adaptations of that movie in Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Black Widow? Audiences are clearly growing weary of that kind of film. I'm actually worried that Captain America 4 will CONTINUE with that theme. When are we gonna move on from that? It's getting boring.

[CosmiComic]

Totally agree with you. I certainly didn't mean to cause any offense and I apologize if I did. I absolutely concur with your opinion that the movies/shows MUST and ALWAYS stay true to the themes and spirits of the source material. Every time studios deviated from that model, the movies and shows failed. I just hate it when comic book fans say: "We have read every single comic in existence and will only accept a direct representation of what happened in them." That's lame to me. And I'm with you a HUNDRED PERCENT with the MCU getting samey. The Winter Soldier was great. Why are we watching new adaptations of that movie in Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Black Widow? Audiences are clearly growing weary of that kind of film. I'm actually worried that Captain America 4 will CONTINUE with that theme. When are we gonna move on from that? It's getting boring.

I don't think adhering entirely to comic book canon is necessary or ideal either. I even prefer some changes, while others I don't. I guess it depends on the changes.

FaWS at least had the aspect of racism and government brutality within the USA, rather than it being HYDRA infiltration. But I hope CA4 goes in a different direction than the previous CA movies while keeping the basic concepts of the Captain America universe

[Albert1981]

I don't think adhering entirely to comic book canon is necessary or ideal either. I even prefer some changes, while others I don't. I guess it depends on the changes.

FaWS at least had the aspect of racism and government brutality within the USA, rather than it being HYDRA infiltration. But I hope CA4 goes in a different direction than the previous CA movies while keeping the basic concepts of the Captain America universe

I like how you enjoy the dropping of the "secret identity" trope. In the 2020s, I don't think it would work. I totally am with Feige getting rid of it. Falcon and Winter had the racism and government brutality angle, which I think made the show stronger. I do think Sam's speech in the end was kinda a long though. Just say "Do better" and call it a day. I hope Captain America 4 goes in a different direction too, but I'm concerned about how it will do. If Scarlet Johansson and Florence Pugh have trouble carrying a MAJOR MCU film, I'm a bit nervous about the other ones. To me, I think Shang-Chi and the Eternals look REALLY vulnerable from my point of view. I think the second season of Loki should be okay and Doctor Strange 2 will do fine too. Funny how magic is becoming a bigger part of the MCU now considering it was so downplayed for such a long time. I personally agree with what you stated earlier. I think it's better for the Scarlet Witch to be part of an ensemble film, like in the Young Avengers. I don't think side characters can carry solo films. Even though I love Loki and Wanda, I think it's better if Strange takes the lead when it comes to MCU fantasy films.

[CosmiComic]

I like how you enjoy the dropping of the "secret identity" trope. In the 2020s, I don't think it would work. I totally am with Feige getting rid of it. Falcon and Winter had the racism and government brutality angle, which I think made the show stronger. I do think Sam's speech in the end was kinda a long though. Just say "Do better" and call it a day. I hope Captain America 4 goes in a different direction too, but I'm concerned about how it will do. If Scarlet Johansson and Florence Pugh have trouble carrying a MAJOR MCU film, I'm a bit nervous about the other ones. To me, I think Shang-Chi and the Eternals look REALLY vulnerable from my point of view. I think the second season of Loki should be okay and Doctor Strange 2 will do fine too. Funny how magic is becoming a bigger part of the MCU now considering it was so downplayed for such a long time. I personally agree with what you stated earlier. I think it's better for the Scarlet Witch to be part of an ensemble film, like in the Young Avengers. I don't think side characters can carry solo films. Even though I love Loki and Wanda, I think it's better if Strange takes the lead when it comes to MCU fantasy films.

I know many still like the secret ID and that's find but I'm glad we agree on that. I don't really need it in the comics either. Seeing heroes be open about how they are is better IMO, especially without the "I hope they don't find out" drama.

I think Shang-Chi actually looks pretty good. I know he's a less prominent Marvel character but I think side characters can carry a movie if the movie is built around them properly. Scarlet Witch, for instance, has always been more of a team character, but WandaVision showed she can lead a project when she's the focus.

I think Sam's speech was supposed to be a bit over the top. IMO it fits with the Captain America aesthetic but I know not everyone's into that kind of speech

[Raye]

Have their opinions given weight isn't the same as doing whatever they want, though. They should still be free to go in another direction if they want. Is it sad that she didn't like it? sure, but there were plenty of people who did like it, for exactly the reasons she didn't, and their opinions don't matter less.

As for the time travel and multiverse stuff being hard to follow, it wasn't actually important to the plot that you get all the intricacies. Sci-fi nerds can pick it apart if they want, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you completely understand all of it, because the story wasn't explaining the details of the multiverse, it was Loki's emotional arc. As long as you get the general gist, it's fine. And the general gist - that the timeline can branch into different timelines with certain actions, and that the TVA clips these variant timelines from existence, really isn't hard to grasp. It was something introduced in Endgame already, (minus the TVA part) and it was explained very simply in that Miss Minutes cartoon. It really isn't hard to grasp the basics, even if the finer details of how it all worked are harder to pin down, but those finer details are fairly inconsequential.

And I never said I wanted the movies to be exactly like the comics. The Loki show isn't like the comics except for the themes it deals with (fighting against fate etc.) and some easteregg type nods like some of the costumes used, it mostly forged it's own path and that's fine with me, I have never been pushing for it to ape the comics, even if I get a little fan glee when I see they adapted something from the books. And when they did adapt something, it was VERY loosely, and I had no problem with that. Yeah the comics had Kid Loki, Lady Loki, President(ial candidate) Loki, Classic Loki and King Loki, but only one of those even involved time travel, and even that one, they were totally different situations. All they took form Kid, President and Classic Loki was the character design, Lady Loki the vague idea of a female Loki, (and the name from a completely different character) and King Loki they took a few vague concepts, and the fact that it involved a bit of time travel, but in general it was a different situation. All but King Loki were just different appearances the comic book character has had over the years, they're not even variants, with the one exception of King Loki. And Loki only encountered the TVA for the first time in the comics like, 2 years ago? And they weren't even there for him. So I am not sure where you are getting the notion that this is about wanting the show to match the comics. I'm fine with the fact that it doesn't. I was just ok with the fact that it wasn't some simple time travel romp where he was interacting with historical events, and instead was more of a character arc. I don't think there's a problem with that. Would a time travel romp have been fun? probably, I'm not saying it wouldn't have been. But that may not have advanced their goals for Loki as a character, or the MCU on a larger scale, so.... And I also liked what we got, for the most part.

[Albert1981]

I know many still like the secret ID and that's find but I'm glad we agree on that. I don't really need it in the comics either. Seeing heroes be open about how they are is better IMO, especially without the "I hope they don't find out" drama.

I think Shang-Chi actually looks pretty good. I know he's a less prominent Marvel character but I think side characters can carry a movie if the movie is built around them properly. Scarlet Witch, for instance, has always been more of a team character, but WandaVision showed she can lead a project when she's the focus.

I think Sam's speech was supposed to be a bit over the top. IMO it fits with the Captain America aesthetic but I know not everyone's into that kind of speech

Lois Lane is supposed to be an outstanding journalist, yet she can't put two and two together when Clark disappears and Superman starts saving folks (after the 1000th time)? It's ludicrous. I don't know why some comic book readers want the characters that they love to be so dumb in those stories. I think Shang-Chi looks fine and should do well, but Black Widow's disappointing box office results after years of anticipation has spooked me. I think Wanda's a great team character too. And I suppose Sam's speech was supposed to be impassioned. But I do think he was way too sympathetic to terrorists who were pretty violent in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

[Albert1981]

Have their opinions given weight isn't the same as doing whatever they want, though. They should still be free to go in another direction if they want. Is it sad that she didn't like it? sure, but there were plenty of people who did like it, for exactly the reasons she didn't, and their opinions don't matter less.

As for the time travel and multiverse stuff being hard to follow, it wasn't actually important to the plot that you get all the intricacies. Sci-fi nerds can pick it apart if they want, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you completely understand all of it, because the story wasn't explaining the details of the multiverse, it was Loki's emotional arc. As long as you get the general gist, it's fine. And the general gist - that the timeline can branch into different timelines with certain actions, and that the TVA clips these variant timelines from existence, really isn't hard to grasp. It was something introduced in Endgame already, (minus the TVA part) and it was explained very simply in that Miss Minutes cartoon. It really isn't hard to grasp the basics, even if the finer details of how it all worked are harder to pin down, but those finer details are fairly inconsequential.

And I never said I wanted the movies to be exactly like the comics. The Loki show isn't like the comics except for the themes it deals with (fighting against fate etc.) and some easteregg type nods like some of the costumes used, it mostly forged it's own path and that's fine with me, I have never been pushing for it to ape the comics, even if I get a little fan glee when I see they adapted something from the books. And when they did adapt something, it was VERY loosely, and I had no problem with that. Yeah the comics had Kid Loki, Lady Loki, and King Loki, but only one of those even involved time travel, and even that one, they were totally different situations. All they took form Kid Loki was the character design, Lady Loki the vague idea of a female Loki, and King Loki they took a few vague concepts, and the fact that it involved a bit of time travel, but in general it was a different situation. And Loki only encountered the TVA for the first time in the comics like, 2 years ago? And they weren't even there for him. So I am not sure where you are getting the notion that this is about wanting the show to match the comics. I'm fine with the fact that it doesn't. I was just fine with the fact that it wasn't some simple time travel romp where he was interacting with historical events, and instead was more of a character arc. I don't think there's a problem with that.

I treat everybody's opinions equally. I just didn't agree with what was said earlier about me thinking the show was a failure because of one girl's opinion. Yeah, I think most folks get Marvel's version of time travel. In the Marvel universe, when someone goes back in time and changes the past, it doesn’t change the present and the future. Instead, it creates another version of the universe. The original past, present, and future still exist, but a second present and future created by the change branch off from the original storyline. The TVA’s job is to prune those branches, ensuring that variants don’t create a multiversal chaos. Got it. I have some definite issues with how it works, but I see where the show was going. To me, I just feel I'm almost going in circles. Loki got an arc in the movies. Loki got an arc in his own show. Now Loki is basically (to me) starting off in another version of TVA just like season one started. It's a bit repetitive to me and I don't get the sense of "fun" that I got from him in earlier appearances.

[Raye]

I think his goal next season will be to get back to 'his' TVA, and the Mobius and B-15 he knows. It's just that he (and the audience) had to be made aware that the branching timelines made it so that there were other TVAs as well, so... And he was dealing with some heavy stuff, so it was understandable to me that he wouldn't be at his most fun.

[CosmiComic]

Lois Lane is supposed to be an outstanding journalist, yet she can't put two and two together when Clark disappears and Superman starts saving folks (after the 1000th time)? It's ludicrous. I don't know why some comic book readers want the characters that they love to be so dumb in those stories. I think Shang-Chi looks fine and should do well, but Black Widow's disappointing box office results after years of anticipation has spooked me. I think Wanda's a great team character too. And I suppose Sam's speech was supposed to be impassioned. But I do think he was way too sympathetic to terrorists who were pretty violent in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

Lois found out years ago, didn't she?

I heard BW did pretty good in the beginning and then was hit by a steep decline in theatres due to D+

As for FaWS, I think Sam had the right idea of not wanting to rush to fight them when they had legitimate complaints. But the villains weren't fleshed out enough

[Yoruno]

The making-of shows one of the early drafts of an episode:


(1 - 5: Mostly Montage)

1. Loki visiting different time periods.

2. Doing crazy mischief aka sex.

3. Pivots to taking power.

4. Collecting Infinity Stones.

5. Has the Gauntlet, takes power...more sex, big alien, etc.

6. Alone in the throne room. He's taken power but is infected with thought that it isn't "real" because of TVA's control over free will.

7. Return to TVA - gauntlets power down. Mobius waiting for him.

8. Loki gives honest answers to Mobius. Mobius shows the sheer power of TVA.

Do time travel shenaganians still sound good to you? IMHO, this would have been awful and more one-dimensional than anything that made it to the screen.