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  1. #16
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This kind of argument doesn't sit right with me. It's a bit like deference to tradition and by this logic, Fantastic Four shouldn't be shown to be bigger than Captain America and Namor who are as old as Marvel Comics get. Or that Red Skull should de facto be treated as a bigger threat than Doom as the older villain.
    Where am I saying that I'm giving him deference by saying he's been in limbo for all these years? There's a few other characters that I think have been neglected. Where am I saying he is more important than another character? All I am saying is I'd like to see his story continue and you seem to feel the same way by suggesting he become like Marley's Ghost and wander about like some kind of cautionary tale. That's not the path I'd like to see the character take but they could at least do something

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This has happened before it didn't work.

    Roy Thomas in his Avengers runs had Hank go through multiple character names and changes - GIANT MAN, GOLIATH,- and it never stuck and in fact that's what led to Hank being diminished gradually, it took him further away from how he was introduced and it gave the character an air of being a wannabe who was insecure and wanted attention and never got it. It's what set the road for "the Slap heard 'round the Marvel Universe".
    Not to get too off the track but if you believe what Shooter says, the artist misunderstood what he wanted which was that he merely wanted Hank to push Jan away. I'm a bit dubious about it but it could be true. Deadlines have always been tight in the business and there was no time for a do over.

    I am well aware of all the changes Pym went through and at least he was back on track for a while as a leader/mentor in Avengers A.I. I'd rather see Hank Pym as an example of someone who succeeded in conquering his demons instead of succumbing to them.

  2. #17
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I want Hank back...but think after getting separated from Ultron Hank is going to need a long time to deal with stuff. His mental issues, the trauma he has been through, his guilt over things he has one as Pymtron....But Marvel could use that as lesson on dealing responsibly with mental health issues.
    Totally agree with this. I wish there was a "like" button here.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    I don't want Hank to be separated from Pymtron, because that would cement the fact that he was really a part of Pymtron, and not a fake Pym created by the android.

    I'd rather have him science his way back from the death, and bringing Bill and Mettle with him.
    Bringing back the old, killing the young: that's the Marvel way

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Totally agree with this. I wish there was a "like" button here.
    I just think that too often they gloss over the complete and utter hell characters have been thru and the emotional/psychological toll it would take on them.

    I wrote this a couple months back about Cassie Lang....

    It goes well beyond just death and resurrection. Let's face it. Parents divorce and Scott goes to prison , Peggy and Scott fight constantly over her because Peggy is afraid for her safety at Avengers Mansion when she is there, Scott dies, she gets powers and more issues with Peggy and Blake, first 2 crushes are villain or at least villain adjacent (Kristoff and young Kang), young Kang kills her next crush Vision/Jonas in front of her, Scott comes back and she dies, she comes back, gets kidnapped and has her heart LITERALLY CUT OUT, gets a new heart, Scott pulls his disappearing act 'to keep her safe' from his crap...then finds out Scott is stalking her, gets powers form PB to get revenge on the guy who cut her heart out and gets captured, Scott has to put together a crew to pull a heist/rescue her and then he gets arrested to protect her from getting in trouble for her criminal acts, then she gets kidnapped and held hostage by Hydra to force Scott to spy/sabotage the Resistance, then Scott takes off again to let the heat die down by going to outer space....
    That's gonna take a toll on her.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This kind of argument doesn't sit right with me. It's a bit like deference to tradition and by this logic, Fantastic Four shouldn't be shown to be bigger than Captain America and Namor who are as old as Marvel Comics get. Or that Red Skull should de facto be treated as a bigger threat than Doom as the older villain.
    I mean, all the characters you listed are pretty major characters still, in part because of their historical significance, so I'm not really seeing the issue.
    This has happened before it didn't work.

    Roy Thomas in his Avengers runs had Hank go through multiple character names and changes - GIANT MAN, GOLIATH,- and it never stuck and in fact that's what led to Hank being diminished gradually, it took him further away from how he was introduced and it gave the character an air of being a wannabe who was insecure and wanted attention and never got it. It's what set the road for "the Slap heard 'round the Marvel Universe".
    I thought Dr. Pym worked really well, and I think they latched onto that for MCU Hank a little.
    Let's be more precise, Hank is a fictional character at the mercy of his writer's best and most defining stories. The best and most defining stories with Hank Pym is the one where he f--ked up his life, destroyed his marriage, quit being a superhero and became a cautionary tale for the superhero community. Before it was when he invented Ultron, the genocide robot with a seven digit body-count dwarving and exceeding the combined total of most villains Hank Pym or the Avengers have fought.

    You need to do a Hank Pym redemption story that is qualitatively as necessary and defining as the one that (seemingly) made him toxic. That's a tall order.
    And let's be fair, writers tend to ignore the positive, good, stories around Hank that don't particularly revolve around his screw-ups.

    Even if he did get a big, high-profile, story like that...they'd probably still ignore it.
    I doubt it. Gage is a solid workhorse but not someone with true transformative talent and to the extent there's a market for an old white male superhero to get a redemption story and pass, it's definitely not in today's age of #MeToo and the problematic yearning for white dudes to keep getting endless second chances.
    Gage did a great job with Hank in Avengers Academy.
    Fundamentally, I don't think Hank Pym needs redemption. Let him wander around the Marvel Universe as a permanent cautionary tale, like the Ancient Mariner or like Cain, confessing his sins. A living testament and there's a limit beyond which redemption is possible or achievable.
    I mean, he's been "redeemed" numerous times and helped save the world a bunch, so I'm not sure if he's quite the poster child for that.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Not to get too off the track but if you believe what Shooter says, the artist misunderstood what he wanted which was that he merely wanted Hank to push Jan away. I'm a bit dubious about it but it could be true.
    Shooter said that because fans pestered him into walking back. In the original comics from the dialogue and captions it was quite clear that he wrote the character in that scene as consciously abusing Jan. AVENGERS #212-214 makes that clear.

    I'd rather see Hank Pym as an example of someone who succeeded in conquering his demons instead of succumbing to them.
    I personally never really understood this desire to redeem Hank as if there was a version of the character, as Ant-Man, as Giant Man, as Yellowjacket, as Goliath who was memorable and successful. Pym was never a successful or popular hero and even before Paul Rudd, Scott Lang clocked in more hours, issues, appearances as Ant-Man than Pym did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I thought Dr. Pym worked really well, and I think they latched onto that for MCU Hank a little.
    Hank Pym as a supporting character and general scientist guy who is an ex-superhero would work well. Marvel doesn't have too many examples of a known superhero who totally quits the gig and goes back to a civilian existence. So Pym can fill that niche well.

    Even if he did get a big, high-profile, story like that...they'd probably still ignore it.
    A story that does a redeeming take on Hank that is very good and sincere would be hard to ignore.

  7. #22
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I personally never really understood this desire to redeem Hank as if there was a version of the character, as Ant-Man, as Giant Man, as Yellowjacket, as Goliath who was memorable and successful. Pym was never a successful or popular hero and even before Paul Rudd, Scott Lang clocked in more hours, issues, appearances as Ant-Man than Pym did.
    Doesn't this Appreciation Thread kind of fly in the face of that?

    That and this:


    Hank Pym as a supporting character and general scientist guy who is an ex-superhero would work well. Marvel doesn't have too many examples of a known superhero who totally quits the gig and goes back to a civilian existence. So Pym can fill that niche well.
    Dr. Pym felt as much a part of the WCA as the rest of the team. At least to me.

    Although I feel like after the MCU and Avengers game more people expect Hank in a lab than the field.
    A story that does a redeeming take on Hank that is very good and sincere would be hard to ignore.
    We've had that though, and it didn't take.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    That is the most common scenario, yes.

    OR......Hank could have overcome Ulton/Pymton by slowly dealing with everything and his mental stability is far stronger than it ever has been, so strong he was able to overcome the programming causing the separation back into himself. Yes, he would have trauma, but his time and ease in dealing with it would be much, much shorter due to his increased mental health, stability and strength.
    You seem to forget that Hank is already "free" of Ultron. His soul has been yanked from it, and some creature devoured him in Soul World. Now this being Soul World, who's to say that the inside of this creature isn't another universe or dimension? I think it was pretty clear by the end of that arc that Hank had never been in control of Ultron, and it was only mimicking him.

    Quote Originally Posted by mugiwara View Post
    I don't want Hank to be separated from Pymtron, because that would cement the fact that he was really a part of Pymtron, and not a fake Pym created by the android.

    I'd rather have him science his way back from the death, and bringing Bill and Mettle with him.
    As I said, he's already been separated, and proven (to my understanding at least) that he was never in control. I too would like to see him science his way back

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, all the characters you listed are pretty major characters still, in part because of their historical significance, so I'm not really seeing the issue.

    I thought Dr. Pym worked really well, and I think they latched onto that for MCU Hank a little.

    Gage did a great job with Hank in Avengers Academy.

    I mean, he's been "redeemed" numerous times and helped save the world a bunch, so I'm not sure if he's quite the poster child for that.
    I loved Hank as Dr Pym in WCA. To be frank, by the time Clint threw a fit and sort of quit, he and Jan were pretty much running the team.

    I'd be THRILLED if Gage were to write a story bringing Hank back. I think he has a good understanding of the character, and would treat him well. Didn't Gage work on Avengers: EMH also?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Dr. Pym felt as much a part of the WCA as the rest of the team. At least to me.

    Although I feel like after the MCU and Avengers game more people expect Hank in a lab than the field.
    Maybe the people who don't read comic books would expect him to stay in his lab You know how I feel about Marvel making decisions to appeal to MCU fans and ignoring comic book canon ...
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    I have a genuine question here. We're talking about whether or not to bring Hank back, that the writer would have to write one heck of a story to redeem him, and so forth. I'm always up for a good story, and as a big Pym fan, I'd like nothing more that to see him come back as a hero, respected by the community.

    We all know what the main problem is with Hank. There are two in fact, the slap and Ultron. The problem with Ultron is that it keeps reinventing itself, and coming back every time they destroy it. Several times in the past, that destruction was conducted by Hank himself, or at least he helped in destroying it. So, a story of redemption for having created Ultron in the 60s, while he has destroyed several Ultrons since then would be kind of redundant at this point. I personally think he suffered enough because of Ultron. As for the slap, I don't think there's anything he could do to redeem himself for that. In the sense that it happened. I don't think there's anything someone can do specifically that will have people say : "Ok, now that you have done this deed, you're forgiven". It happened in 1982. Since then, he was welcomed in the WCA, back in the main Avengers team, abducted by the Skrulls for some time, led the Mighty Avengers, then founded Avengers Academy, then led the A.I. team. Janet, who was the victim, hooked back with him in WCA, and they were a couple again before the end of the first volume, and through most of Busiek's run until Austen and Bendis came along with their mischaracterization. To this day, depending on the writers of course (some seem to not know much about them), she seems to still care deeply about him.

    My point is, to my knowledge, he hasn't done one single big f*ck-up since 1982, and Janet seemed to have moved on from the slap a looooong time ago. So if nothing he has done since 1982 is good enough to justify bringing him back and treating the character in a positive way, I don't know what could. Using those two screw-ups as the reason why he shouldn't be brought back or be in teams doesn't seem right, as it would mean that they shouldn't have published anything with him in for the past 40 years.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    You seem to forget that Hank is already "free" of Ultron. His soul has been yanked from it, and some creature devoured him in Soul World. Now this being Soul World, who's to say that the inside of this creature isn't another universe or dimension? I think it was pretty clear by the end of that arc that Hank had never been in control of Ultron, and it was only mimicking him.
    Ah yes, sorry, I did forget! I just so want Hank back that I try to come up with ways to get him back, lol!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Ah yes, sorry, I did forget! I just so want Hank back that I try to come up with ways to get him back, lol!
    I know what you mean!
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugiwara View Post
    Nothing new for Pym, but Christos Gage stated that he'd like to write him again:
    Let's hope that Marvel let him pitch something, maybe whenever the next Ant-Man movie will be out.

    https://twitter.com/Christosgage
    I would trust Gage to do something solid with Hank. He seems to have a good grip on the core of the character ( his tweet itself is testimony to that) and I get the feeling he would respect canon and continuity.

    He's actually one of the few writers I suggested when we were talking about who we would trust to write a Pym story. Gage or Busiek were my top choices.

    I'd be over the moon if that were to happen, but realistically I'm not holding my breath. I've been burned before.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

    Currently looking for a pull list... Does near-mint West Coast Avengers count?

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  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yeah, it's ridiculous that one of Marvel's oldest character going back to 1962 and a founding member of the Avengers is in comic book limbo this long. I think the best way to do it is a total relaunch of the character, give him a new set of powers and a new name....something that is not related to insects.
    Hank already is one of the most versatile and powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe. Let's see...

    1. Genius level intelect specializing in bio-chemestry, cybernetics and entimology. Once known as Earth's Scientist Supreme (I know there's some controversy there as it it was real or just a trick by Loki, but, still...)
    2. Ability to change his own size, from shrinking to insect-size and even smaller, to growing to giant-size, reaching as far as 100 ft. Strength increses with size.Let's say he can reach at least Class 50 in strength, which is even more impressive in combat when you include his size and mass.
    3. Ability to change size of other things (all things at first, then, specially treated objects that he carried miniturized in his pockets). Combined with his scientific know-how, this makes him about as effective a walking tank in terms of weaponary as Iron Man.
    4. Cybernetic comunication and control of insects. That's one hell of a intel gathering tool.
    5. Stingers from his YJ days. They used to be powered by his size changes. Imagine a stinger shot at 100 ft. It'd probably be a one shot deal, but it'd be enough to total a battle cruiser.
    6. Flight. Artificial with his YJ artificial wings, or natural, with his Wasp ones.

    As for a new ID, I'd rather not. As YJ he'd be able to use most of his abilities, but I'd slightly update the costume (not much, because it's a pretty good costume, but I'd include some details from costumes of his other identities).
    I'd also leave behind the mental issues. It's been done to death. Let Hank be a story of victory in dealing with his demons.

    Peace
    Last edited by Nomads1; 06-14-2021 at 10:05 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    Maybe the people who don't read comic books would expect him to stay in his lab
    I actually have read the original Avengers run by Thomas and "The Trial of Yellowjacket" (the official name for the 20 issue saga that begins with Hank slapping Janet and ends with him single-handedly defeating Egghead and the Masters of Evil) so I am not to be included in that category.

    You know how I feel about Marvel making decisions to appeal to MCU fans and ignoring comic book canon ...
    MCU ignoring comics canon is what led them to rehabilitate Hank by defusing all the issues that made the character toxic in comics: [a]Didn't create Ultron, [b]Didn't remarry a woman 20 years younger based on her resemblance to his dead first wife, [c]Didn't go nuts and create multiple alter-egos out of insecurity, [d]Since he didn't do the first three, he didn't slap Janet.

    The slap was a logical conclusion to Hank's character based on various decisions that had been made in the Roy Thomas run of The Avengers. Roy Thomas was the one who pretty much finished Hank as a superhero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    My point is, to my knowledge, he hasn't done one single big f*ck-up since 1982,
    In comics continuity, the slap isn't something thirty years in the past, it's a lot more recent to the characters.

    So if nothing he has done since 1982 is good enough to justify bringing him back and treating the character in a positive way, I don't know what could.
    It's not simply enough for Hank to be a guy doing stuff in an Avengers book for a sufficient amount of time for him to qualify as a hero again. Hank going nuts led to Ultron, a prominent and important Marvel supervillain. Hank slapping Janet is one of the greatest and most important character-driven stories in Avengers' publ. history. Janet being divorced and single led her to become team leader of The Avengers and her history with Hank is referred to in stories like UNDER SIEGE.

    So far no "redeemed Hank" story has provided moments of quite the same emotional real-estate. He was a background character in WCA which has its fans but doesn't make a dent to non-Avengers readers, neither does Avengers AI and so on. A redeemed Hank has to have a moment as important in impact as UNDER SIEGE or do something as big in heroics as creating Ultron was in villainy.

    ​Using those two screw-ups as the reason why he shouldn't be brought back or be in teams doesn't seem right, as it would mean that they shouldn't have published anything with him in for the past 40 years.
    Firstly, Hank is still being published. He appears in titles as a background and supporting character and he has lore that's referred to multiple times.

    It's just that Hank doesn't exactly serve as protagonist as Ant-Man in a serial ongoing...and truth be told, he never really did that. Before The Avengers, he was a character in some Tales to Astonish stories, after that he toiled in The Avengers while Cap, Hulk, Thor, Iron Man got their own books or own teams. The reason why Thomas added drama to Hank and Janet's life was because he was allowed to f--k with them in a way he couldn't with the double-shift (team-and-solo) guys like Thor, Cap, IM.

    Hank is today what he has always been, a minor superhero who is around to use as genre and lore furniture for other characters.

  15. #30
    Amazing Member Celtic1967's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    You seem to forget that Hank is already "free" of Ultron. His soul has been yanked from it, and some creature devoured him in Soul World. Now this being Soul World, who's to say that the inside of this creature isn't another universe or dimension? I think it was pretty clear by the end of that arc that Hank had never been in control of Ultron, and it was only mimicking him.
    According to Slott's Ultron arc in Iron Man, Hank was dead ever since the merger between him and Ultron, before his soul was supposedly taken into the Soul Gem. Pymtron was just Ultron simulating that the two had merged.
    Wanna make somethin' of it?

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