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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I feel like it's been addressed far more than it ever should have been. 'If you want it to heal, stop picking at it!' as grandma would say. Janet herself appears to have moved on from it, so perhaps it's time for everyone else to, and it never to be explained or mentioned again. I feel like every time it's brought up on page, it just tarnishes his character all over again.
    Ok, well, if that's the case, then Marvel should recognize it.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Exactly!!!

    It's not enough for a simple redemption, it's basically demanding that a redeemed Hank feature in an instant-classic story centered on his redemption and heroism!!!

    It's not about appeasing the haters. The thing is not enough people have a passion for Hank to have a sufficient demand for the redeemed or heroic Hank in the first place.

    I know that a lot here might disagree with that, but basically a redeemed Hank needs to feel essential.

    To give an example...Hawkeye is not a character with baggage like Hank but basically he's a character that on paper doesn't have a lot going for him. He's an arrow guy in a team of gods and super-soldiers. He's also a knockoff of Oliver Queen. And he got married and divorced. Then Matt Fraction and David Aja wrote the Hawkeye series and none of that mattered. Hawkeye was felt to be essential because he was part of a great run.

    A redeemed and restored Hank needs to be part of a comic of similar stature to qualify. And Christos Gage...he has his fans, but he's no Matt Fraction.
    That's a bold ambition you're laying out here I think some writers do better with certain types of characters, and while Fraction may have been a good fit for Clint (I have some reservation on that, since Fraction's Hawkeye wasn't always recognizable to me) I don't think his style would fit with Hank. I still think at the base it takes someone who understands the character, and who can take him further than before, to keep in line with your suggestion. I don't know if Gage could do that, but I tend to think so. The pairing between writer and character has to be good in order to have a good story. Mark Waid also comes to mind. His run on Daredevil was pretty good, and he often used Hank in it. He tends to writer more cerebral stories, with a lot of heart in it, which could be a good fit also, IMH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I feel like it's been addressed far more than it ever should have been. 'If you want it to heal, stop picking at it!' as grandma would say. Janet herself appears to have moved on from it, so perhaps it's time for everyone else to, and it never to be explained or mentioned again. I feel like every time it's brought up on page, it just tarnishes his character all over again.
    I blame the Ultimate line for this. Before the 1610 universe came about, there wasn't much mention of it in the comics, and Hank was a prominent member of the team. The Ultimates brought it back to the forefront, and people started to hate on 616 Hank because of stuff 1610 Hank did. After that, no amount of reasoning with them could change their minds that he was a bad guy.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    That's a bold ambition you're laying out here
    Well if people want Hank Pym redeemed and be a hero, that implies that doing so would lead to better stories or that it would do so inherently.

    And a great story is the only really counter-argument. A great story with Pym as redeemed that create moments like the kind that got him in the hole he's been in to start with.

    I think some writers do better with certain types of characters, and while Fraction may have been a good fit for Clint (I have some reservation on that, since Fraction's Hawkeye wasn't always recognizable to me) I don't think his style would fit with Hank.
    I am just offering a kind of standard...not saying you must have an exact copy of Fraction/Aja's run. You need a Hank Pym run that has a stylishness and centered on the character in that manner. Something that can last.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well if people want Hank Pym redeemed and be a hero, that implies that doing so would lead to better stories or that it would do so inherently.

    And a great story is the only really counter-argument. A great story with Pym as redeemed that create moments like the kind that got him in the hole he's been in to start with.
    But a heroic Hank Pym has been involved in good stories...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    Millar didn’t do Hank any justice that’s for sure. None of the Avengers were really shown in a positive light but Hank got the worst Millar treatment.
    Always hated Millar's 'everybody is a jerk' "writing style".

    Peace

  6. #66
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    That's basically what ruined the Ultimate Universe, right?

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I guess I can see why it's easier to identify Clint's appeal when you explain it like that. But maybe that's why I've never been drawn to him. I don't dislike him, but I don't miss him if he's not there

    As for Hank, I think the whole abuse thing is the facet of him which stands out the most to many people. I honestly don't know how Marvel can address that in an appropriate way
    In Avengers Academy he was in a relationship with Tigra. If either of them got a solo you could just have it be a subplot in an issue. They have a romantic relationship so it should be something that comes up atleast once.

    Last time I checked, he merged with Ultron so he has bigger problems to deal with.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 06-16-2021 at 12:52 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    In Avengers Academy he was in a relationship with Tigra. If either of them got a solo you could just have it be a subplot in an issue. They have a romantic relationship so it should be something that comes up atleast once.

    Last time I checked, he merged with Ultron so he has bigger problems to deal with.
    I think he's not technically part of Ultron anymore, is he?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    In Avengers Academy he was in a relationship with Tigra. If either of them got a solo you could just have it be a subplot in an issue. They have a romantic relationship so it should be something that comes up atleast once.

    Last time I checked, he merged with Ultron so he has bigger problems to deal with.
    IIRC...that was Skrull-Pym...not Hank.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think he's not technically part of Ultron anymore, is he?
    Idk.

    Either way, spousal abuse is a thorny subject that I don't think Marvel could handle well. So retconning it is something they should've done decades ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    IIRC...that was Skrull-Pym...not Hank.
    Hank continued that relationship for a bit because they had a baby. I don't know if they continued that relationship but it worked for the example I gave.

    PS. I liked that dynamic and wished they explored it more. But it is what it is.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Idk.

    Either way, spousal abuse is a thorny subject that I don't think Marvel could handle well. So retconning it is something they should've done decades ago.



    Hank continued that relationship for a bit because they had a baby. I don't know if they continued that relationship but it worked for the example I gave.

    PS. I liked that dynamic and wished they explored it more. But it is what it is.
    It is a touchy subject, and Marvel should tread carefully. I'm just not totally sure what is the status of how it's been addressed so far

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Idk.

    Hank continued that relationship for a bit because they had a baby. I don't know if they continued that relationship but it worked for the example I gave.

    PS. I liked that dynamic and wished they explored it more. But it is what it is.
    I don't remember if they continued the relationship...or if Hank was just a stand up guy and said he would be the daddy for William since it was technically his DNA.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I don't remember if they continued the relationship...or if Hank was just a stand up guy and said he would be the daddy for William since it was technically his DNA.
    Relationships happen for less and it's a good angle for a subplot.

    Honestly I think just putting Mark Waid on a Hank pym book would be a fine start. Get Chris Samnee back and let them work their magic....

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think he's not technically part of Ultron anymore, is he?
    No he's not, since ... darn, can't remember the name of the event. Infinity Countdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Hank continued that relationship for a bit because they had a baby. I don't know if they continued that relationship but it worked for the example I gave.

    PS. I liked that dynamic and wished they explored it more. But it is what it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I don't remember if they continued the relationship...or if Hank was just a stand up guy and said he would be the daddy for William since it was technically his DNA.
    If the relationship ended, I missed that part. The last time I remember seeing them together was in Avengers Arena, when Hank was looking everywhere for his missing students. Tigra was never involved after that in any of Hank's stories, and we didn't get any mention of her in Avengers A.I either. She wasn't there at the ceremony for Hank when Ultron killed him, and the only time she was seen speaking of Hank after that was in Whitley's book (...) where she didn't seem that upset that he was dead (to be fair, nobody in that comic book acted normal, so I can hardly hold it against her...) She never acknowledged the fact that Hank was William's "dad" even when Hank was fully involved, which is a bit of a crappy move, if you ask me. For once a guy wants to take responsibilities, girl... let him do it!

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Relationships happen for less and it's a good angle for a subplot.

    Honestly I think just putting Mark Waid on a Hank pym book would be a fine start. Get Chris Samnee back and let them work their magic....
    Oh, Samnee!! Great idea!!
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    If the relationship ended, I missed that part. The last time I remember seeing them together was in Avengers Arena, when Hank was looking everywhere for his missing students. Tigra was never involved after that in any of Hank's stories, and we didn't get any mention of her in Avengers A.I either. She wasn't there at the ceremony for Hank when Ultron killed him, and the only time she was seen speaking of Hank after that was in Whitley's book (...) where she didn't seem that upset that he was dead (to be fair, nobody in that comic book acted normal, so I can hardly hold it against her...) She never acknowledged the fact that Hank was William's "dad" even when Hank was fully involved, which is a bit of a crappy move, if you ask me. For once a guy wants to take responsibilities, girl... let him do it!

    It was mentioned in the Wasp series at Nadia's birthday party.

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