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  1. #106
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    I remember hearing that line. I guess Uncle Ben is still dead

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Mar Vell never really came back, either. Impersonators and maybe alternate universes versions briefly popped up, but the original is still dead, AFAIK.
    Bringing back the old, killing the young: that's the Marvel way

  3. #108
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    Was Mar-Vell very popular?

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transformers03 View Post
    I think that's the thing that I find the most strange thing about this whole thing - that Marvel is straight-up avoiding this whole thing with Nadia and Pymtron. I guess they just don't want to burden Nadia with Hank's whole baggage.

    I agree that I don't think Nadia, in particular, doesn't care about her father anymore, but I think there's potential to what their relationship would be like. I would have to imagine that Hank will have to earn her trust somehow, which can lead to good-nature drama. Though, again, I think Marvel doesn't want to saddle Nadia with Hank's whole deal.

    Also, I just realized that Hank doesn't know Nadia exists, which is just... weird, I guess?
    What is ironic is that the main reason for Nadia to escape the Red Room in the first place was so she could meet her dad. Having her not get involved in a possible rescue\demerging of Pymtron seems a bit weird to me, considering her character.

    If Marvel didn't want to burden Nadia with Hank's bagage, they would not have green-lighted her having the exact same mental disorder as he had. If they didn't want to saddle Nadia with Hank's whole deal, as you said, they shouldn't have made her his daughter in the first place. The whoe thing just doesn't make any sense. I'm still waiting for a writer to actually have Nadia react like a real human being instead of the weird unreal girl she's been written as most of the time.

    I don't think she doesn't care about her father anymore, despite how it's been dealt with in Whitley's run (quite poorly, I might add). I think Whitley just wanted to deal and expoit other aspects of the character while not really paying attention to her background and what would have been more logical to write about. Introducing Nadia in the comics and dealing with her in a different manner would have produced a completely different story and IMO a better character. Instead of a crappy mini about some random girls no one gives a crap about, they could have made a mini about Nadia using her intellect, and Jan, using her wealth, to MacGuyver something to retreive Hank from Ultron (a bit akind to the second Ant-Man movie, but in reverse).

    And while I read the Whitley runs (yeah... ) there is nowhere mention in it that Janet has adopted the girl. Nadia took her name, for synergy reasons, but Janet is not her new mom. How strange would it be to adopt the long-lost daughter of your ex-husband? I fthere's a panel in which it is stated that Janet adopted her, I'll happily stand corrected though.

    And am I the only one to find it strange that Janet cares so much about Nadia, while she reminds her so much of Hank? Are there some unresolved issues here?
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  5. #110
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    In story...Jan did everything she could to protect Nadia from the bad Hank did. The way she heard about Hank hitting Jan was to overhear a couple people talking about it.
    Which was poorly done, IMO.

    Janet's explaination when Nadia found out made it seem like Hank was a straight out villain. I wasn't expecting her to excuse Hank for what he had done, but she sort of left out the part where she got back with him later and they were really happy for several years until Secret Invasion happened. Or how he spent all his time looking for her when she vanished in the Microverse. It made it sound like the slap was the end of things for them and that Jan never forgave him or moved on from that. I was pissed at that because I thought that if I was a new reader (like the comic book seemed to be aimed at) I would have had a very negative impression of Hank, and wrongly so. I know the story wasn't supposed to focus on Hank, but it could have been treated better. I remember Whitley having to deal with a few critics over that, but he stood by what he had written.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  6. #111
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I understand and feel the same way, Mary Jay.

    I would have thought there would have been involvement of Hank with Nadia, more background, etc as you stated. I too find it odd that Janet took to Nadia so much and so quickly and likewise with Nadia taking Janet's last name, as if she was Janet's lost daughter instead of Hank's.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]

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  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I understand and feel the same way, Mary Jay.

    I would have thought there would have been involvement of Hank with Nadia, more background, etc as you stated. I too find it odd that Janet took to Nadia so much and so quickly and likewise with Nadia taking Janet's last name, as if she was Janet's lost daughter instead of Hank's.
    I also can't help but think about poor Maria. She was abducted and kept alive as pretty much a breeding machine to have Nadia, only to have her taken away from her and be killed somewhere. She never got to see her child, or her husband again, and maybe has died thinking they had killed her husband and baby Nadia was the only thing she had left of him. I just breaks my heart, and I can't fathom why Nadia would have preferred taking Jan's name instead of her mom or dad. Just doesn't make any kind of sense.

    I think there are a lot of people who didn't really mind having the character of Nadia come about in the comics, but would have preferred her target audience not be 9 years olds. The depths of stories that could have been written about her, her family and her background (the Red Room, a place where they train assassins... not really suited for a children's book) would have been very interesting. Instead we got childish stories that disserviced every character involved.

    Well, that's just my two cents anyway
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  8. #113
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I also can't help but think about poor Maria. She was abducted and kept alive as pretty much a breeding machine to have Nadia, only to have her taken away from her and be killed somewhere. She never got to see her child, or her husband again, and maybe has died thinking they had killed her husband and baby Nadia was the only thing she had left of him. I just breaks my heart, and I can't fathom why Nadia would have preferred taking Jan's name instead of her mom or dad. Just doesn't make any kind of sense.

    I think there are a lot of people who didn't really mind having the character of Nadia come about in the comics, but would have preferred her target audience not be 9 years olds. The depths of stories that could have been written about her, her family and her background (the Red Room, a place where they train assassins... not really suited for a children's book) would have been very interesting. Instead we got childish stories that disserviced every character involved.

    Well, that's just my two cents anyway
    That backstory is pretty messed up the more I think about it.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I also can't help but think about poor Maria. She was abducted and kept alive as pretty much a breeding machine to have Nadia, only to have her taken away from her and be killed somewhere. She never got to see her child, or her husband again, and maybe has died thinking they had killed her husband and baby Nadia was the only thing she had left of him. I just breaks my heart, and I can't fathom why Nadia would have preferred taking Jan's name instead of her mom or dad. Just doesn't make any kind of sense.

    I think there are a lot of people who didn't really mind having the character of Nadia come about in the comics, but would have preferred her target audience not be 9 years olds. The depths of stories that could have been written about her, her family and her background (the Red Room, a place where they train assassins... not really suited for a children's book) would have been very interesting. Instead we got childish stories that disserviced every character involved.

    Well, that's just my two cents anyway
    Maybe when she gets older, she might have more mature stories

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I also can't help but think about poor Maria. She was abducted and kept alive as pretty much a breeding machine to have Nadia, only to have her taken away from her and be killed somewhere. She never got to see her child, or her husband again, and maybe has died thinking they had killed her husband and baby Nadia was the only thing she had left of him. I just breaks my heart, and I can't fathom why Nadia would have preferred taking Jan's name instead of her mom or dad. Just doesn't make any kind of sense.

    I think there are a lot of people who didn't really mind having the character of Nadia come about in the comics, but would have preferred her target audience not be 9 years olds. The depths of stories that could have been written about her, her family and her background (the Red Room, a place where they train assassins... not really suited for a children's book) would have been very interesting. Instead we got childish stories that disserviced every character involved.

    Well, that's just my two cents anyway
    I want to stick up for Whitley's Wasp series for a little bit here, as I do think that his series was actually pretty good for a kid's comics. I enjoyed the side characters, and I really do believe in Janet and Nadia's relationship. I do believe that Nadia would take Janet's last name over her father, I think that does make sense to me. I don't think it comes off as force. I also don't think focusing on the darker aspects of Nadia's backstory would have made it more mature - I think it would have made it darker, but not necessarily more mature. If anything, the second volume is worth it for Gurihiru's artwork alone.

    At least, that's my two cents.

    With that said, I agree that I don't think Whitley portrayed Hank, or at least the absence of Hank, particularly well. It kind of comes across that Whitley doesn't feel like Hank should be forgiven for what he did, which kind of ignores the whole idea that Hank has been trying to rehabilitate himself since that "incident". In my reading of the character of Hank Pym, I always saw him as someone who is constantly trying to redeem himself from his past actions, so Whitley's rejection of that kind of goes against the pathos of the character. I don't even have an issue with Nadia's reaction, her reaction when finding out makes sense, its the fact that Janet doesn't even elaborate on what Hank does afterward is the problem. I understand that moment kind of served as a metaphor for when kids find out one of their parents has been abusing the other, but it really villainizes Hank in a way that didn't feel necessary. This makes me think Whitely doesn't really like Hank.

    Given the fact that Ultron is literally using Hank's face to do supervillain stuff, it really does comes across as if Marvel doesn't want readers to see Hank anything other than a villain. Don't get me wrong, no one should ever hit their spouse. That is literally one of the worse things any person can do, and one time is far too many. However, I also believe in redemption, and I think what makes Hank a layered character is the fact he will always have to find ways to redeem himself.

    Another thing, while I think Whitely's Wasp series was good as is and didn't really need to include the whole Ultron-Pym storyline, it doesn't mean other comic books couldn't. Champions and All-New Avengers would have been the best comics to deal with a potential Ultron-Pym and Nadia storyline, though that never happen. This goes back to the fact that Marvel is really going out of their way to not have Hank (or a version of Hank) and Nadia meet.

    I'm just curious why. Usually, when Marvel is putting off doing something that seems like an inevitability, like when they didn't want Spider-Man to meet Agent Venom for a long time, it means they have something planned down on pipeworks. Or they could just be saving that particular story for a rainy day.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I also can't help but think about poor Maria.
    My fanwank for Maria back in the day was that she wasn't 'killed' by Soviet agents, she *was* a Soviet agent, one of a select group of Red Room trained operatives sent over to try and get in with various US scientists. (Reed barely noticed the agent assigned to him before Sue cockblocked her. Stark's agent had zero trouble getting close to him, but got zero useful intelligence... And the agent assigned to Pym was the breakout success of the program, not just getting a job as his lab assistant, as planned, but actually *marrying* him.) She felt her cover was compromised and that she had the information she needed, so she faked her death and returned to Russia (while some other poor woman's body replaced hers). She was the darling of the program, having smuggled out all sorts of information about parallel processing computer cybernetics stuff that Pym had developed from his studies into ant hive mind communication / information processing models, and eventually became 'the Swarm Queen' of the Red Room, developing cybernetic control chips (and later, implants) that allowed her to remotely access the senses of other agents, and even to control them remotely, like puppets! The fact that Pym unveiled his size-changing Pym particles soon after, and she had zero information on this amazing science took the blush off the rose, but she prevailed, and ended up not officially, but de facto in charge of the Red Room's science division. A new (but old!) female genius villain.

    But then along came Nadia, and my fanwank went up in smoke.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    My fanwank for Maria back in the day was that she wasn't 'killed' by Soviet agents, she *was* a Soviet agent, one of a select group of Red Room trained operatives sent over to try and get in with various US scientists. (Reed barely noticed the agent assigned to him before Sue cockblocked her. Stark's agent had zero trouble getting close to him, but got zero useful intelligence... And the agent assigned to Pym was the breakout success of the program, not just getting a job as his lab assistant, as planned, but actually *marrying* him.) She felt her cover was compromised and that she had the information she needed, so she faked her death and returned to Russia (while some other poor woman's body replaced hers). She was the darling of the program, having smuggled out all sorts of information about parallel processing computer cybernetics stuff that Pym had developed from his studies into ant hive mind communication / information processing models, and eventually became 'the Swarm Queen' of the Red Room, developing cybernetic control chips (and later, implants) that allowed her to remotely access the senses of other agents, and even to control them remotely, like puppets! The fact that Pym unveiled his size-changing Pym particles soon after, and she had zero information on this amazing science took the blush off the rose, but she prevailed, and ended up not officially, but de facto in charge of the Red Room's science division. A new (but old!) female genius villain.

    But then along came Nadia, and my fanwank went up in smoke.
    In my opinion, that would have been a bad story if it went through. It plays into the crudest anti-Russian stereotypes, makes defectors out to be spies and double agents, plays into sexist stereotypes, and it again frames Hank as a sad man done wrong by a woman he didn't understand.

    Hank having a happy and loving marriage and being a good husband to his first wife, and then after losing her, latching on to another woman to unfairly fill that role and becoming a terrible husband to his second wife, makes for a more realistic and interesting story, and also a more tragic character.

    And Nadia being separated from her father and finding him to be so flawed plays into all kinds of family stuff.

  13. #118
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transformers03 View Post
    I want to stick up for Whitley's Wasp series for a little bit here, as I do think that his series was actually pretty good for a kid's comics. I enjoyed the side characters, and I really do believe in Janet and Nadia's relationship. I do believe that Nadia would take Janet's last name over her father, I think that does make sense to me. I don't think it comes off as force. I also don't think focusing on the darker aspects of Nadia's backstory would have made it more mature - I think it would have made it darker, but not necessarily more mature. If anything, the second volume is worth it for Gurihiru's artwork alone.

    At least, that's my two cents.
    That's what's nice about it Every opinion has a right to exist I'm glad you had fun reading the series. It just wasn't for me.

    With that said, I agree that I don't think Whitley portrayed Hank, or at least the absence of Hank, particularly well. It kind of comes across that Whitley doesn't feel like Hank should be forgiven for what he did, which kind of ignores the whole idea that Hank has been trying to rehabilitate himself since that "incident". In my reading of the character of Hank Pym, I always saw him as someone who is constantly trying to redeem himself from his past actions, so Whitley's rejection of that kind of goes against the pathos of the character. I don't even have an issue with Nadia's reaction, her reaction when finding out makes sense, its the fact that Janet doesn't even elaborate on what Hank does afterward is the problem. I understand that moment kind of served as a metaphor for when kids find out one of their parents has been abusing the other, but it really villainizes Hank in a way that didn't feel necessary. This makes me think Whitely doesn't really like Hank.

    Given the fact that Ultron is literally using Hank's face to do supervillain stuff, it really does comes across as if Marvel doesn't want readers to see Hank anything other than a villain. Don't get me wrong, no one should ever hit their spouse. That is literally one of the worse things any person can do, and one time is far too many. However, I also believe in redemption, and I think what makes Hank a layered character is the fact he will always have to find ways to redeem himself.
    ... and that's why it wasn't for me. Whitley pretty much went back to a story written 40 years ago and wrote like nothing happened to Hank and Jan since. It was lazy of him, or it was ignoring canon to suit his purpose. It felt to me like the kind of story where a character is run through the mud in order to step up another one. This kind of thing is, I feel, what made me dislike the character of Nadia.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  14. #119
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    My fanwank for Maria back in the day was that she wasn't 'killed' by Soviet agents, she *was* a Soviet agent, one of a select group of Red Room trained operatives sent over to try and get in with various US scientists. (Reed barely noticed the agent assigned to him before Sue cockblocked her. Stark's agent had zero trouble getting close to him, but got zero useful intelligence... And the agent assigned to Pym was the breakout success of the program, not just getting a job as his lab assistant, as planned, but actually *marrying* him.) She felt her cover was compromised and that she had the information she needed, so she faked her death and returned to Russia (while some other poor woman's body replaced hers). She was the darling of the program, having smuggled out all sorts of information about parallel processing computer cybernetics stuff that Pym had developed from his studies into ant hive mind communication / information processing models, and eventually became 'the Swarm Queen' of the Red Room, developing cybernetic control chips (and later, implants) that allowed her to remotely access the senses of other agents, and even to control them remotely, like puppets! The fact that Pym unveiled his size-changing Pym particles soon after, and she had zero information on this amazing science took the blush off the rose, but she prevailed, and ended up not officially, but de facto in charge of the Red Room's science division. A new (but old!) female genius villain.

    But then along came Nadia, and my fanwank went up in smoke.
    I dunno... I really don't think Hank was such a high rated scientist back in the days that the Red Room had its eyes on him. He started developping an interest in ant behavior after Maria died, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't think he was much into cybernetics at that point. His primary field of study was biochemistry. I also seem to recall Maria's father was also a scientist working in the US, and had also been killed (not sure at all about this, I'd have to re-read TTA).

    In itself it could be a good story though
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  15. #120
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hank having a happy and loving marriage and being a good husband to his first wife, and then after losing her, latching on to another woman to unfairly fill that role and becoming a terrible husband to his second wife, makes for a more realistic and interesting story, and also a more tragic character.
    Latching? Really? After having done anything and everything to discourage Jan of any sort of romance with him? She was the one who was all over him, and there was even one time where he told her he wasn't really ready for a relationship because of Maria.

    The "terrible husband" bit is also debatable, as they have been very happy together for a very long time, both before and after the slap.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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