Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

I don't think it was ever clearly Gwen? It's like how Peter knew the kids in Sins Past weren't his, he never slept with Gwen. I don't think there was ever any indication that they were that deep into their relationship.

Obviously the moment in Blue was very suggestive but that story isn't straight canon.

He was considering to propose to her.It doesn't get much deeper than that.Until SP most considered her his first.That is why when they did that in SP it had to be stated like twice.Another Sh*tty retcon of that story.
And as I said Blue is very canon compliant and maybe with SP getting retconned will fit in.I mean has marvel explicitly stated it isn't.
That is besides the point, doesn't matter if it is or isn't.

And It's not suggestive imo, the only thing they can do more is write "and then they f*cked".They clearly did and it makes a ton of sense.Gwen has his first serious relationship, I mean really serious relationship.

I always loved that dynamic and how Gwen's death changed MJ more and how her death, a tragedy lead to a beautiful relationship to culminate in Peter and MJ.Gwen was his first love, MJ was his true love.

Even if some of this can't ever really be fixed and marvel f*cked this forever this is the version I choose to believe(It doesn't make it canon, just my 2 cents).

[Digifiend]

That doesn't mean he slept with her though, far from it. It used to be very common to not have sex before marriage.

[Spiderfan001]

That doesn't mean he slept with her though, far from it. It used to be very common to not have sex before marriage.

That's not his values, never have been.
And I'm saying there is a lot more evidence that he did than for he didn't.Comics don't show stuff like this.
This is the same logic people use to say all Emma and Scott did was kiss in the mindscape because they don't show us them doing/thinking about it on panel.
Many couples or hook-ups aren't shown on panel, but they happened.
Before SP most considered he did, thus they had to drill in the retcon that he didn't.

[Frontier]

He was considering to propose to her.It doesn't get much deeper than that.Until SP most considered her his first.That is why when they did that in SP it had to be stated like twice.Another Sh*tty retcon of that story.
And as I said Blue is very canon compliant and maybe with SP getting retconned will fit in.I mean has marvel explicitly stated it isn't.
That is besides the point, doesn't matter if it is or isn't.

And It's not suggestive imo, the only thing they can do more is write "and then they f*cked".They clearly did and it makes a ton of sense.Gwen has his first serious relationship, I mean really serious relationship.

I always loved that dynamic and how Gwen's death changed MJ more and how her death, a tragedy lead to a beautiful relationship to culminate in Peter and MJ.Gwen was his first love, MJ was his true love.

Even if some of this can't ever really be fixed and marvel f*cked this forever this is the version I choose to believe(It doesn't make it canon, just my 2 cents).

I don't think that means he had to have slept with her (especially back then), and I thought it was a more popular assumption that MJ was his first. I've seen it come up in a few threads. Of course I've also assumed it's more popular to not view Blue as canon.

I think Gwen was his first serious relationship but there was an extent he wouldn't open up to her, and part of the tragedy of their relationship was a lot of it left unfulfilled with her death. I just never got the sense their relationship went that far.

I

[Spiderfan001]

I don't think that means he had to have slept with her (especially back then), and I thought it was a more popular assumption that MJ was his first. I've seen it come up in a few threads. Of course I've also assumed it's more popular to not view Blue as canon.

I think Gwen was his first serious relationship but there was an extent he wouldn't open up to her, and part of the tragedy of their relationship was a lot of it left unfulfilled with her death. I just never got the sense their relationship went that far.

I

Again that can be used for anything not explicitly shown on panel.That's not a good argument.Most people thought they did for a reason.That's why they drilled the whole thing in SP again and again.The MJ being first is much more recent much more recent.
Many people take Blue as canon(like easily 50-60 % people who have read it), and many of the ones that don't take it as headcanon(This is where I fall in, not canon or canon isn't fixed because of the retcon parade in Spencer rn but until then it's not)

Man, they definitely went that far.The only point was the he never got to propose(which is the unfulfilled part) which is what we saw in a what-if.Again there is a lot of evidence they did(and it makes sense) and almost nothing that they didn't.We can invalidate everything given but that's not going to get us anywhere.I can say in SP he meant they never forgot to use protection.But that's gonna get us nowhere.

Let's just drop it.It's an MJ thread, my point was if Peter was MJ's first which makes sense l but I do think it Gwen was Peter's first.Both those relationships were serious.
Aside from the above proof it also makes sense and the story better.Both relationships were intimate(even they way he talks about her current ASM and some past ones shows that).

We have seen enough to see why Peter would sleep with Gwen and that they indeed.
Same for Gwen.
We also speculate (with good accuracy imo) that why Peter was MJ's first.

This also keeps both relationships important and works for them both the best.

Again no need to go further into this.This is an MJ thread.MJ is still the goat and Ms. Spider-man.Always has been, always will be.No conflict there.

[Frontier]

Again that can be used for anything not explicitly shown on panel.That's not a good argument.Most people thought they did for a reason.That's why they drilled the whole thing in SP again and again.The MJ being first is much more recent much more recent.
Many people take Blue as canon(like easily 50-60 % people who have read it), and many of the ones that don't take it as headcanon(This is where I fall in, not canon or canon isn't fixed because of the retcon parade in Spencer rn but until then it's not)

Man, they definitely went that far.The only point was the he never got to propose(which is the unfulfilled part) which is what we saw in a what-if.Again there is a lot of evidence they did(and it makes sense) and almost nothing that they didn't.We can invalidate everything given but that's not going to get us anywhere.I can say in SP he meant they never forgot to use protection.But that's gonna get us nowhere.

Let's just drop it.It's an MJ thread, my point was if Peter was MJ's first which makes sense l but I do think it Gwen was Peter's first.Both those relationships were serious.
Aside from the above proof it also makes sense and the story better.Both relationships were intimate(even they way he talks about her current ASM and some past ones shows that).

We have seen enough to see why Peter would sleep with Gwen and that they indeed.
Same for Gwen.
We also speculate (with good accuracy imo) that why Peter was MJ's first.

This also keeps both relationships important and works for them both the best.

Again no need to go further into this.This is an MJ thread.MJ is still the goat and Ms. Spider-man.Always has been, always will be.No conflict there.

To be honest, again, I have not seen much argument that Gwen was the first other than I guess the assumption that just because she was his first love that they probably did at some point but I think it's believable enough that they didn't before her death for various reasons.

There were a lot of things going into the relationship with Gwen that would have made it sensible that it didn't happen in my opinion and Peter and MJ's relationship felt more deeper (in several senses of the word). I don't think it makes the relationship with Gwen less important but, like many things about it, it was cut short in it's pure infancy. I don't think the way Peter talks about Gwen reflects how deep their relationship was so much how impactful she was as his first love and what happened to her. At least to me.

I used to view Blue as canon but it's kind of fallen out of favor with me aside from it's quality as a work.

[Spiderfan001]

To be honest, again, I have not seen much argument that Gwen was the first other than I guess the assumption that just because she was his first love that they probably did at some point but I think it's believable enough that they didn't before her death for various reasons.

There were a lot of things going into the relationship with Gwen that would have made it sensible that it didn't happen in my opinion and Peter and MJ's relationship felt more deeper (in several senses of the word). I don't think it makes the relationship with Gwen less important but, like many things about it, it was cut short in it's pure infancy. I don't think the way Peter talks about Gwen reflects how deep their relationship was so much how impactful she was as his first love and what happened to her. At least to me.

I used to view Blue as canon but it's kind of fallen out of favor with me aside from it's quality as a work.

Yeah, it definitely depends on prespective but I do think we have a lot more going for Gwen being his first.

I still think if SP is retconned(the affair to be exact), then it's canon.Small stuff will still not make sense but that happens a whole lot in comics.

Still both relationships were great and iconic.

Here's hoping the resolution to both SP(retcon affair) and OMD(make them aware) are done well.

[Frontier]

Yeah, it definitely depends on prespective but I do think we have a lot more going for Gwen being his first.

I still think if SP is retconned(the affair to be exact), then it's canon.Small stuff will still not make sense but that happens a whole lot in comics.

Still both relationships were great and iconic.

Here's hoping the resolution to both SP(retcon affair) and OMD(make them aware) are done well.

I mean, I think we have enough to go by to think it never quite reached that point, but I don't see that as a way of invalidating a relationship, it's just a contrast with Peter's relationship with MJ.

Even if Sins Past is retconned, Peter's reaction to the kids probably wouldn't be.

[NC_Yankee]

Yeah, it definitely depends on prespective but I do think we have a lot more going for Gwen being his first.

I still think if SP is retconned(the affair to be exact), then it's canon.Small stuff will still not make sense but that happens a whole lot in comics.

Still both relationships were great and iconic.

Here's hoping the resolution to both SP(retcon affair) and OMD(make them aware) are done well.

I am going to say Peter likely did not “Go All The Way” with Gwen. Why? Timing. The Comic Book Code which frowned on that stuff was not broken until the drug issues, and Gwen died less then 25 issues later, plus Pete and Gwen were not on the most friendly terms ( remember her treatment of Aunt May). I would also cite Marvel on refusing to allow the Stacy Twins be Peter’s, which would require them to be intimate ( unless clones are involved of course). Does it mean a future writer cannot have a story with them intimate? Of course not. But as of now, I say it did not happen. As for Sins Past itself, I am expecting some kind of “Butterfly Effect” story ( also erasing OMD) or they were actually clones created of Norman’s and Gwen’s DNA ( the teasing of Ghost Spider by Norman makes me think former rather then latter). For me the biggest question is what exactly does Kindred want? If Spencer ( thru Kindred) wanted Peter dead, he already would be and Ben would have been fighting Otto and company. But that has not happened ( at least not yet). Norman and MJ could also be dead if he chose. I think it is about making Peter and Norman ( and possibly MJ) suffer for their sins and in the end get redemption ( in the case of Peter ( and if Spencer chooses) MJ). One way to do that is for MJ and possibly Peter to see what has happened because of the deal and send one or the other ( most likely MJ because she knows exactly what happened and Peter does not remember) back in time to stop not only the deal but Gwen from getting together with Norman. Thus OMD and Sins Past both get erased.

[marhawkman]

I don't think that means he had to have slept with her (especially back then), and I thought it was a more popular assumption that MJ was his first. I've seen it come up in a few threads. Of course I've also assumed it's more popular to not view Blue as canon.

I think Gwen was his first serious relationship but there was an extent he wouldn't open up to her, and part of the tragedy of their relationship was a lot of it left unfulfilled with her death. I just never got the sense their relationship went that far.

Yeah, my read is that part of what haunted Pete about Gwen's death was that.... he was nearly to the point of doing that... but hadn't yet. Thus he had a lot of very personal regrets NOT directly related to feeling that he was the reason she died. He wished he'd moved faster and done more with her before she died.

[Spiderfan001]

I mean, I think we have enough to go by to think it never quite reached that point, but I don't see that as a way of invalidating a relationship, it's just a contrast with Peter's relationship with MJ.

Even if Sins Past is retconned, Peter's reaction to the kids probably wouldn't be.

I feel the opposite.
Again Gwen being his first makes more sense and makes both relationships better and works for story as well.Gwen was his first serious relationship and Peter was MJ's.

I mean as I said, easily can be taken as didn't use protection or something.And thousands of stories have minor continuity issues.If the affair is retconned it's all good.

[Spiderfan001]

I am going to say Peter likely did not “Go All The Way” with Gwen. Why? Timing. The Comic Book Code which frowned on that stuff was not broken until the drug issues, and Gwen died less then 25 issues later, plus Pete and Gwen were not on the most friendly terms ( remember her treatment of Aunt May). I would also cite Marvel on refusing to allow the Stacy Twins be Peter’s, which would require them to be intimate ( unless clones are involved of course). Does it mean a future writer cannot have a story with them intimate? Of course not. But as of now, I say it did not happen. As for Sins Past itself, I am expecting some kind of “Butterfly Effect” story ( also erasing OMD) or they were actually clones created of Norman’s and Gwen’s DNA ( the teasing of Ghost Spider by Norman makes me think former rather then latter). For me the biggest question is what exactly does Kindred want? If Spencer ( thru Kindred) wanted Peter dead, he already would be and Ben would have been fighting Otto and company. But that has not happened ( at least not yet). Norman and MJ could also be dead if he chose. I think it is about making Peter and Norman ( and possibly MJ) suffer for their sins and in the end get redemption ( in the case of Peter ( and if Spencer chooses) MJ). One way to do that is for MJ and possibly Peter to see what has happened because of the deal and send one or the other ( most likely MJ because she knows exactly what happened and Peter does not remember) back in time to stop not only the deal but Gwen from getting together with Norman. Thus OMD and Sins Past both get erased.

Again that's why they didn't explicitly show it.Peter has no problems with pre-marital s*x.And in Blue we see this too(is not canon because of SP but still has some weight)

[Spiderfan001]

Yeah, my read is that part of what haunted Pete about Gwen's death was that.... he was nearly to the point of doing that... but hadn't yet. Thus he had a lot of very personal regrets NOT directly related to feeling that he was the reason she died. He wished he'd moved faster and done more with her before she died.

That was the proposal man.Again everyone interprets stuff differently and one can say it was both but compared to all we have for Gwen being his first and that it makes sense with their ages and behavior and Spider-man blue on top(I'm aware it not canon because of SP, but it does show a very faithful adaptation and with retcon may fit in).
Peter isn't that heart-broken just because he didn't get to sleep with her, that makes no sense.

Again I can be both but everything including behavior and timeline indicates it was.The fact that SP had to drill that it wasn't shows how much it was.

I think I'll leave this topic here.We all have our own interpretation and both are right in their own way.That is the beauty about fiction.

[Frontier]

I feel the opposite.
Again Gwen being his first makes more sense and makes both relationships better and works for story as well.Gwen was his first serious relationship and Peter was MJ's.

I mean as I said, easily can be taken as didn't use protection or something.And thousands of stories have minor continuity issues.If the affair is retconned it's all good.

I don't think it makes the relationship better. I don't think the relationship needs to be made better because, regardless of how serious it was, it was very flawed.

MJ was even more serious a relationship for Peter in my opinion.

[Spiderfan001]

I don't think it makes the relationship better. I don't think the relationship needs to be made better because, regardless of how serious it was, it was very flawed.

MJ was even more serious a relationship for Peter in my opinion.

I mean he was gonna propose, doesn't get more serious than that and it makes sense that Gwen was his first.But it doesn't matter, no point in going at this again.

Onto the main point, since MJ's movie premiere was crashed do we think we will see the new release date at the end of this run, or maybe at 75.Hopefully.
I really hope we get a lot of Peter MJ because Beyond is gonna f*ck them up AGAIN.