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  1. #1276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    IMO it works well enough that you'd think the entire story of their relationship was by design if you weren't privy to all of the behind the scenes stuff. Conway really laid the groundwork fairly early on that Mary Jane was a very conflicted individual as a result of some underlying trauma ("This is going to sound like a cop out...but I don't want to love him. I like the guy too much for that kind of scene.") And then other writers expanded on that. Even Wolfman's proposal rejection works under that framework; especially when you consider that Mary Jane knew that Peter wasn't being completely honest with her at that time.. so how could she be vulnerable with him? (And the follow up to that rejection in Spec further lends to the idea that she was very emotionally conflicted)


    I'd really love Marvel to make an oversized collection of all the key issues in their relationship so that the entire story could be read in chronological order without all of the excess fat. I was thinking of putting one together myself. Maybe one day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Someday, yeah. Spider-Man: The Amazing Story of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson. At least, that's what I think it should be called.
    If they do this I hope it's right after their wedding that I'm still hoping we will get in 616

  2. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    If they do this I hope it's right after their wedding that I'm still hoping we will get in 616
    Same here, though it would technically be their second wedding. They might have been able to retcon The Wedding out of in-universe canon . . . but they can't retcon it out of our own hearts and memories!
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #1278
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    After reading some comments about MJ by spiderfan and Luk,
    Damn, which ones? 'Cause lately it feels like half of my posts are MJ related lol.

    i think that Wolfman was also the first writer in making reference to MJ parents and they were divorced.
    Can't say he was, but considering that before this, the one who did the most with MJ was Conway, and I don't think Conway said anything about this, I'd be surprised if someone else mentioned the divorce thing before Wolfman:



    (ASM#192)

    With all this i said that the reveals by DeFalco actually sort of help to explain a lot of her behavior, especially in 259 when talks about her backstory anfd later when Peter wants to quit and he angryly shouts at her about how she doesn't know why he is Spider-Man because she never asked and never tried to understand and she admitted that he was rigth "Peter i'm asking now" and he proceeds to tell her the story of AF # 15, i hope that she wasn't put up by the narration lol. I think than that issue was ASM #275
    Was ASM#275 yes.

    Still, i think that my view of then in the 70s is basically two people in love that want to be closer than they are but neither was willing to really take the first step to get closer to eacth other, until they weren't a thing anymore, but luckily it wasn't too late.
    That seems to have been the case in the 80's by accident too, after MJ revealed she knows that Peter is Spidey, she says her feelings for him aren't about love:

    https://i.imgur.com/rC5NP4l.png

    (ASM#259)

    But Web of Spider-Man contradicts that a few months later:

    https://i.imgur.com/pcmKQkJ.png

    (WoSM#3)

    https://i.imgur.com/h0zFfpG.png

    (WoSM#6)

    Weirdly enough, those issues aren't by the same writer, WoSM#3 is by Louise Simonson, while WoSM#6 is by Danny Fingeroth.

    I know that the narrative is probably not perfect and there are probably some holes in it (i haven't read a good chunk of 70s Spec Spider and there is definetly a team up issue when she clearly considers Peter and Spidey to be two different people), but most of it kind of fits strangely enougth.
    Yeah there are rather blatant contradictions at times, but it's comic books, retcons will always contradict something, MJ is lucky enough that the bad contradictions are minor, specially with how much it improves her character at times (And I'm not a fan of her knowing before she even met Peter).

    The best example is ASM#122, the original intent was to show that there was something more to MJ than a drama-free party girl, someone who can be an actual friend, and maybe more. The retcon makes it so that, since she knows Peter is Spidey, and she actively tried to avoid getting too close to him before, just this once she decided to stop being a coward (She calls herself a cowards a few times) and help him, which's what started it.

    As Lukmendes said at some point, she really was like a sort of happy accident in Peter's life lol.
    Pretty sure I said her character was a happy little accident in general lol.

    Stuff like Wolfman saying that her parents got divorced in ASM#192, Stern bringing her back, hinting at her being more than a party girl, then showing some more drama in ASM#246, and , and her backstory in ASM#259, were there just to develop her as a character, not as a love interest.

    Thing is that, ASM#246 in particular, with this "daydreamer" story, it shows Peter and MJ have more in common than you'd think, since both her's and Spidey's daydream have them daydreaming about becoming famous, which then the daydream is interrupted by their own insecurities, and some issues try to put distance between them can make it look like they want to be together but don't go for it for reasons, ASM#259 quite blatantly has MJ saying it's not love, then WoSM#3 and 6 quite clearly have MJ being interested but she's afraid, you can say it's bad continuity, but with MJ's "happy little accident" kind of luck, makes it work because it makes it look like she herself isn't ready for it yet.

    I think ASM#275:

    https://i.imgur.com/pMkjecE.png

    And Spider-Man vs Wolverine:

    https://i.imgur.com/X6a7hYa.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/Wfbrx88.jpg

    I think those also had the intention of not keeping them together romantically, but really looks like they want to but won't go for it for reasons.

    So, yeah, MJ is a well written love interest by accident, this is her in a nutshell:





    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    IMO it works well enough that you'd think the entire story of their relationship was by design if you weren't privy to all of the behind the scenes stuff.
    In general, I guess, but MJ always knowing that Peter is Spidey is a blatant retcon that I noticed way before I even knew of all of this background nonsense lol.

    I'd really love Marvel to make an oversized collection of all the key issues in their relationship so that the entire story could be read in chronological order without all of the excess fat. I was thinking of putting one together myself. Maybe one day.
    Thing is that some of those moments are just random moments in a comic, ASM#192 in particular, MJ mentioning that her parents got divorced is almost a throwaway line lol.

    Marvel would need to be more accepting of the relationship for a collection like that to be made too, while right now they're okay with them being together, who knows how long that'll last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Same here, though it would technically be their second wedding. They might have been able to retcon The Wedding out of in-universe canon . . . but they can't retcon it out of our own hearts and memories!
    Not for lack of trying lol.

  4. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Someday, yeah. Spider-Man: The Amazing Story of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson. At least, that's what I think it should be called.
    A well researched limited series that hits the high (and low) points of their relationship.

  5. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    A well researched limited series that hits the high (and low) points of their relationship.
    Around the time of the marriage, Peter A. David collated the issue of Marvel Saga #22 which was a scrapbook that plucked panels across their relationship with newly recontextualized panels showing their relationship.

    It was quite well done.

  6. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post

    Thing is that some of those moments are just random moments in a comic, ASM#192 in particular, MJ mentioning that her parents got divorced is almost a throwaway line lol.

    Marvel would need to be more accepting of the relationship for a collection like that to be made too, while right now they're okay with them being together, who knows how long that'll last.
    Yeah I probably wouldn't include issues like that. I started making a list a while ago when I was rereading of what I consider to be some of the more substantive Peter/MJ issues:

    Untold tales 16
    ASM 42-45, 47 (the Betty and Veronica issues)
    59-61, (the Brand of the Brainwasher) 96-98, (The Drug Trilogy) 121,122, (The Night Gwen Stacy Died) 127- 131, 136, 137, (Aftermath of Gwen's death and Harry's turn as the Green Goblin) 143 (first kiss) 144- 150 (the original Clone Saga), 182, 183, PPSM 21 (first proposal and rejection)

    They could fill in the gaps with little summary pages, throw in AF #15/ASM#1, and summarize all of the MJ teases during the Ditko era like they did in that Mary Jane TPB released a while back.

    Throw in a few of those essays by Conway, Lee, Romita from other collected editions and some concept art and you have a nice oversized Peter/MJ collection. And volume 2 could pick up with the Stern and Defalco years.

    I'd like to think that Marvel has softened up towards the relationship and its history so hopefully we'd get something like that in the future.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 10-17-2021 at 07:11 PM.

  7. #1282
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Around the time of the marriage, Peter A. David collated the issue of Marvel Saga #22 which was a scrapbook that plucked panels across their relationship with newly recontextualized panels showing their relationship.

    It was quite well done.
    Huh, didn't know about that.



    I like Spidey's picture at the bottom, with the top hat and the flowers .

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Yeah I probably wouldn't include issues like that. I started making a list a while ago when I was rereading of what I consider to be some of the more substantive Peter/MJ issues:
    To be fair, if ASM#192 is the first one that does mention MJ's divorced parents, I think at least those panels should be there, 'cause the first mention of that is important.

    Untold tales 16
    ASM 42-45, 47 (the Betty and Veronica issues)
    59-61, (the Brand of the Brainwasher) 96-98, (The Drug Trilogy) 121,122, (The Night Gwen Stacy Died) 127- 131, 136, 137, (Aftermath of Gwen's death and Harry's turn as the Green Goblin) 143 (first kiss) 144- 150 (the original Clone Saga), 182, 183, PPSM 21 (first proposal and rejection)

    They could fill in the gaps with little summary pages, throw in AF #15/ASM#1, and summarize all of the MJ teases during the Ditko era like they did in that Mary Jane TPB released a while back.

    Throw in a few of those essays by Conway, Lee, Romita from other collected editions and some concept art and you have a nice oversized Peter/MJ collection. And volume 2 could pick up with the Stern and Defalco years.
    Don't forget Parallel Lives at the end, since it tells MJ's story with the retcon that she knows Peter's identity since the beginning (ASM#259 says she's known for years, but doesn't say when she found out, and it definitely wasn't before she met Peter), so it adds her thoughts about him over those years.

    I'd like to think that Marvel has softened up towards the relationship and its history so hopefully we'd get something like that in the future.
    They did soften up, but, considering how often Marvel is willing to bait and switch, and fact Clone saga was really considered to be used to replace Peter, and OMD ended the marriage, they don't deserve to be trusted at all, 'cause let's say Peter and MJ get married again/marriage is retconned back, who's to say it's sticking? We could get OMD2 with those fuckers.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-17-2021 at 08:13 PM.

  8. #1283
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Huh, didn't know about that.



    I like Spidey's picture at the bottom, with the top hat and the flowers .
    What I'll always love about that issue is the ending (XD)

  9. #1284
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Damn, which ones? 'Cause lately it feels like half of my posts are MJ related lol.



    Can't say he was, but considering that before this, the one who did the most with MJ was Conway, and I don't think Conway said anything about this, I'd be surprised if someone else mentioned the divorce thing before Wolfman:



    (ASM#192)



    Was ASM#275 yes.



    That seems to have been the case in the 80's by accident too, after MJ revealed she knows that Peter is Spidey, she says her feelings for him aren't about love:

    https://i.imgur.com/rC5NP4l.png

    (ASM#259)

    But Web of Spider-Man contradicts that a few months later:

    https://i.imgur.com/pcmKQkJ.png

    (WoSM#3)

    https://i.imgur.com/h0zFfpG.png

    (WoSM#6)

    Weirdly enough, those issues aren't by the same writer, WoSM#3 is by Louise Simonson, while WoSM#6 is by Danny Fingeroth.



    Yeah there are rather blatant contradictions at times, but it's comic books, retcons will always contradict something, MJ is lucky enough that the bad contradictions are minor, specially with how much it improves her character at times (And I'm not a fan of her knowing before she even met Peter).

    The best example is ASM#122, the original intent was to show that there was something more to MJ than a drama-free party girl, someone who can be an actual friend, and maybe more. The retcon makes it so that, since she knows Peter is Spidey, and she actively tried to avoid getting too close to him before, just this once she decided to stop being a coward (She calls herself a cowards a few times) and help him, which's what started it.



    Pretty sure I said her character was a happy little accident in general lol.

    Stuff like Wolfman saying that her parents got divorced in ASM#192, Stern bringing her back, hinting at her being more than a party girl, then showing some more drama in ASM#246, and , and her backstory in ASM#259, were there just to develop her as a character, not as a love interest.

    Thing is that, ASM#246 in particular, with this "daydreamer" story, it shows Peter and MJ have more in common than you'd think, since both her's and Spidey's daydream have them daydreaming about becoming famous, which then the daydream is interrupted by their own insecurities, and some issues try to put distance between them can make it look like they want to be together but don't go for it for reasons, ASM#259 quite blatantly has MJ saying it's not love, then WoSM#3 and 6 quite clearly have MJ being interested but she's afraid, you can say it's bad continuity, but with MJ's "happy little accident" kind of luck, makes it work because it makes it look like she herself isn't ready for it yet.

    I think ASM#275:

    https://i.imgur.com/pMkjecE.png

    And Spider-Man vs Wolverine:

    https://i.imgur.com/X6a7hYa.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/Wfbrx88.jpg

    I think those also had the intention of not keeping them together romantically, but really looks like they want to but won't go for it for reasons.

    So, yeah, MJ is a well written love interest by accident, this is her in a nutshell:







    In general, I guess, but MJ always knowing that Peter is Spidey is a blatant retcon that I noticed way before I even knew of all of this background nonsense lol.



    Thing is that some of those moments are just random moments in a comic, ASM#192 in particular, MJ mentioning that her parents got divorced is almost a throwaway line lol.

    Marvel would need to be more accepting of the relationship for a collection like that to be made too, while right now they're okay with them being together, who knows how long that'll last.



    Not for lack of trying lol.
    It was that post about Lee/Romita were lazy about female characthers back then and how one-dimensional Gwen and Mary Jane (especially MJ) were.

    I'm 99.9% sure that Conway didn't mention it and i'm completly sure that Wein didn't touch MJ past at all.

    I think that you said that she was a little accident in the overall franchise, but your point still stand, it was really just a happy accident. Daydreamers is a great issue, not real comment for me there, i just like that story lol.

    I think that something that helped is that it was weird to see MJ thougths balloon, not that it didn't happen, but it wasn't that often and rarely they showed anything about her past or Spider-Man, so you could argue that she was in denial about the whole thing. It also help that some of the stories that contradict it either weren't that great or not one remembers then, beyond the the true hardcore fan (you know the one that is actually more spider-man trivia than man, be carefull with that one Luk lol).

    If retconed the memories of our hearts with a OMD they would take faster that you can say "responsability".
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  10. #1285
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Around the time of the marriage, Peter A. David collated the issue of Marvel Saga #22 which was a scrapbook that plucked panels across their relationship with newly recontextualized panels showing their relationship.

    It was quite well done.
    Nice, thanks for the info, i'll check it out tomorrow.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
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  11. #1286
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    It was that post about Lee/Romita were lazy about female characthers back then and how one-dimensional Gwen and Mary Jane (especially MJ) were.
    I think most of the laziness went to Gwen, MJ was one dimensional but, other supporting characters weren't that much better, including men.

    Problem with Gwen is that, she became Peter's girlfriend, so there's should be more to her, but there wasn't.

    I'm 99.9% sure that Conway didn't mention it and i'm completly sure that Wein didn't touch MJ past at all.
    Yeah I doubt Conway mentioned anything tragic about MJ's past, and hell, she's actually happy that Betty and Ned are getting married:



    (ASM#142)

    While you can say she was just pretending, if Conway was gonna hint that MJ had some problem with marriages to hint at some tragedy, then she'd at least hesitate here.

    Conway's objective seemed to be to develop MJ as a character to show there's more to her character than just a party girl, and to make her into a more fitting love interest, but I never got the impression he cared about making her tragic for the sake of doing either of those things, and while he did use the tragedies later on, it was because other writers wrote them and Parallel lives just combined everything.

    I think that you said that she was a little accident in the overall franchise, but your point still stand, it was really just a happy accident. Daydreamers is a great issue, not real comment for me there, i just like that story lol.
    I still think it would be hilarious if Marvel even said that MJ wasn't a planned baby, just to make her into a happy accident in-universe too .

    I think that something that helped is that it was weird to see MJ thougths balloon, not that it didn't happen, but it wasn't that often and rarely they showed anything about her past or Spider-Man, so you could argue that she was in denial about the whole thing.
    The weird thing is that, her thought balloons didn't seem to show up too much in the Lee/Romita era, which ironically makes that era the most believable one that she knows Peter is Spidey.

    It also help that some of the stories that contradict it either weren't that great or not one remembers then, beyond the the true hardcore fan
    The problem is that whenever MJ thought balloons show up (Admitedly, not very frequently), they may be thinking about Peter:



    (ASM#129)

    And while she's not thinking about Spider-Man, if she's thinking about the problems about being in a relationship with Peter, it's just bizarre for her to not think about him being Spider-Man when thinking about those.

    Even without the thought balloons, she sometimes wonders out loud to Peter and others what what he's been up to, though at least that one you can say she's asking this to him so he doesn't suspect she knows.

    Those are contradictions, kinda noticeable ones, even on a casual read if you keep this in mind, but again, since MJ has this "happy accident" theme, it benefits her more than anything else, and again, the nature of what retcons means contradictions will happen anyways, like, does anyone remember when mutants originally were just random kids who got infected by radiation in some way? Or better question, does anyone care that original explanation?

    (you know the one that is actually more spider-man trivia than man, be carefull with that one Luk lol).
    70's, 90's, BND, Slott's run before Superior, MTU are big blanks to me, as long as it remains that way, that "more Spider-Trivia tha man" dark future won't be happening so soon =D.

    If retconed the memories of our hearts with a OMD they would take faster that you can say "responsability".
    Considering Quesada legit thought fans would forget about it and move on, Marvel definitely wants us to forget, and would probably do a real life OMD if it were possible to get it lol.

  12. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    What I'll always love about that issue is the ending (XD)
    You know? I can't stop thinking about something. OMD erased this wedding (and I hope it will be fixed sooner or later), but Spider-Man "technically" already married someone else: Black Cat. Yes, yes, I know they were just pretending in a Maggia's ceremony, but I can't helped to doubt if that "marriage" actually counts. Can you imagine MJ's reaction if Felicia reveals this? It gives me the creeps.

  13. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    You know? I can't stop thinking about something. OMD erased this wedding (and I hope it will be fixed sooner or later), but Spider-Man "technically" already married someone else: Black Cat. Yes, yes, I know they were just pretending in a Maggia's ceremony, but I can't helped to doubt if that "marriage" actually counts. Can you imagine MJ's reaction if Felicia reveals this? It gives me the creeps.
    Marvel might do teases and stuff there but they won't make that marriage a legal and still counts sense. That much is guaranteed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Marvel might do teases and stuff there but they won't make that marriage a legal and still counts sense. That much is guaranteed.
    I don't know. For what I read, the Maggia is connected to a powerful demon of Marvel's Universe: Satannish. If Satannish sees Spider-Man and Black Cat's wedding as legitic by his power, he could see his "re-marriage" with MJ as an offense to his power; making Spidey being trapped in another mess. Sounds crazy, I know, but this is the kind of demential insanity that Spider-Man always gets trapped into.

  15. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    I don't know. For what I read, the Maggia is connected to a powerful demon of Marvel's Universe: Satannish. If Satannish sees Spider-Man and Black Cat's wedding as legitic by his power, he could see his "re-marriage" with MJ as an offense to his power; making Spidey being trapped in another mess. Sounds crazy, I know, but this is the kind of demential insanity that Spider-Man always gets trapped into.
    I guess. But I don't see anything that can generate an actual status-quo affecting thing. For one thing how many people read that Black Cat Annual based on sales? Not much.

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