Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2021

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Stan Lee said those things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqRdAZED9Y

Never a very reliable narrator in ordinary circumstances but especially not do in his later years.

[Spiderfan001]

Never a very reliable narrator in ordinary circumstances but especially not do in his later years.

So the guy who wrote the comics is unreliable as compared to who? you and me on this forum reading it?
Also there are panels w/ Peter saying Gwen was his first real love, and people always thought they were gonna get married and he did to.
MJ is the love of his life, soulmates if such a thing exist.They did get married and the irony is that a tragedy(Gwen's death) is what led to the beautiful relation b/w Peter and MJ.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So the guy who wrote the comics is unreliable as compared to who?

Stan Lee wasn’t writing the comics in the lead up to Gwen’s death. Conway took over from issue #111 and Gwen’s death is #121-122. So we are talking 10 issues which were published monthly so 10 months where Lee wasn’t involved with the happenings of the comics. That’s a good gap. The people working on the comics in this period had no plans to marry Peter so there was no real actual marriage plot in development at that time.

But anyway that’s all I have to say on this.

[NC_Yankee]

So the guy who wrote the comics is unreliable as compared to who? you and me on this forum reading it?
Also there are panels w/ Peter saying Gwen was his first real love, and people always thought they were gonna get married and he did to.
MJ is the love of his life, soulmates if such a thing exist.They did get married and the irony is that a tragedy(Gwen's death) is what led to the beautiful relation b/w Peter and MJ.

I honestly could not see Gwen marrying Peter because of the dislike she had against Spider-Man. Part of which was blaming him for her dad’s death. I also did not think she had the toughness necessary to handle both the spider and the man. I understand some of the revisionist history stories make her out to be stronger, but I am referring to the pre ASM 121 Gwen. In fairness to Gwen it is not easy being with someone exceptional like Peter ( not to mention his lying and deceit) and even MJ who I always considered stronger then Gwen needed years until she became able to handle being with Peter.

[Spiderfan001]

I honestly could not see Gwen marrying Peter because of the dislike she had against Spider-Man. Part of which was blaming him for her dad’s death. I also did not think she had the toughness necessary to handle both the spider and the man. I understand some of the revisionist history stories make her out to be stronger, but I am referring to the pre ASM 121 Gwen. In fairness to Gwen it is not easy being with someone exceptional like Peter ( not to mention his lying and deceit) and even MJ who I always considered stronger then Gwen needed years until she became able to handle being with Peter.

Again character development is a thing.I agree pre ASM 121 Gwen wouldn't tbh, but they were all wildly different back then.Like the MJ we love rn is wildly different than the one in that era.
Yeah I do think Gwen may have gone off the deep(and even off herself) end if she stayed with him.MJ is a different kind of strong, like one in a billion type.That's why I hate stories that make MJ heartbroken and vulnerable if Peter isn't in town for a week a.k.a. the sh*tty Jerome story.So out of character.

[Spiderfan001]

Stan Lee wasn’t writing the comics in the lead up to Gwen’s death. Conway took over from issue #111 and Gwen’s death is #121-122. So we are talking 10 issues which were published monthly so 10 months where Lee wasn’t involved with the happenings of the comics. That’s a good gap. The people working on the comics in this period had no plans to marry Peter so there was no real actual marriage plot in development at that time.

But anyway that’s all I have to say on this.

No it isn't.
The guy who wrote most of the comics(100+) issues and (co)created the character compared to someone who wrote 10-12 issues before killing the character is a huge difference.

[NC_Yankee]

Again character development is a thing.I agree pre ASM 121 Gwen wouldn't tbh, but they were all wildly different back then.Like the MJ we love rn is wildly different than the one in that era.
Yeah I do think Gwen may have gone off the deep(and even off herself) end if she stayed with him.MJ is a different kind of strong, like one in a billion type.That's why I hate stories that make MJ heartbroken and vulnerable if Peter isn't in town for a week a.k.a. the sh*tty Jerome story.So out of character.

I agree MJ is one in a billion ( which is why I am on the “MJ or no one list”). But I actually think that the MJ that we know and love was around ( it just was hidden under the Party Girl image). Why do I believe that? Go back to ASM 122, where her intervention stopped Peter from acting on his worse instincts such as killing Norman ( a point I made before). I will also note that Conway created a character a short seven issues later in Frank Castle that could have been Peter without the presence of MJ. So the concept of revenge was certainly there in Conway’s mind.

[Huntsman Spider]

I agree MJ is one in a billion ( which is why I am on the “MJ or no one list”). But I actually think that the MJ that we know and love was around ( it just was hidden under the Party Girl image). Why do I believe that? Go back to ASM 122, where her intervention stopped Peter from acting on his worse instincts such as killing Norman ( a point I made before). I will also note that Conway created a character a short seven issues later in Frank Castle that could have been Peter without the presence of MJ. So the concept of revenge was certainly there in Conway’s mind.

Interesting point you make about the main difference between Peter/Spider-Man and the Punisher being that in Mary Jane, Peter still had something to live for, whereas for Frank Castle, if you go by some interpretations, being the Punisher is his penance for not being able to protect his family, which he intends to end only with his own death --- an expression that he has nothing else to live for besides venting his rage and grief and guilt on the criminal element, which, again, could have been Peter himself if not for MJ.

[AngelJD]

One matter I feel we must keep in mind. MJ and Gwen are fictional characters. They never existed. But the fun of storytelling & charazation & what they make us feel and possible real influences somehow is a reality.

It's writers and artists who are the reason we have application posts and fan love or hate to characters. 616 MJ was (at first to readers that first read her debut issue when it came out and had no idea what the future would be) the beautiful wild party girl that also loved danger in her debut few issues when first shown to readers.

Then 616 MJ wasn't because we were told that by writers and artists that had such ideas and worked hard to showed us by their craft that she wasn't while trying not to conflict somehow the past that came to be. So much has come from writers and artists after her debut issue.
Writers and Artists (and executive meddling) are the reasons we feel what we feel and told & giving visuals to who characters are. Developments and derailments and more. All due to writer's imagination, desires, and what they could be able to tell. No idea how we will be writing about any characters 40 years from now, who will come to exist, and much more.

Fate could of been negative (or more positive) for 616 MJ if other writers from 1960's to today wrote Spider-Man. Gwen(s) and MJ(s) might of never existed as characters or pure existence at all if Stan Lee for some reason decided not to have them come to be formed from his experiences that influenced his brain and then time given to go from concepts to publish debut issue. Stan could of instead for ant reasons focus on Betty or a new girl created (that we would of loved or hate or not think about at all) and stories. 616 Gwen and 616 MJ would not be who they are today if writers had other ideas for them that we came to feel 'who they are' because we were told as such within history.

Possible road not taken was that Conway not caring for Gwen (understandable as writers are human and we care and don't care about various characters + sometimes can have what is felt to be good ideas for some characters while having no ideas for others) and no ideas towards making her somebody he would like to write of resulting in him simply having Gwen just leave on a taxi for his whole run.
Doing so another writer then used her in their tales and suddenly a change happens and 616 Gwen in how we se her due to developments and derailments would have a new history.

A series of writers that 616 MJ had we are fortunate to write her becoming currently who she is now is who we should value making her go beyond other comic characters that are similar to her from her debut time in other comics and writers giving deep developments, insights, and making positive changes to her character by new ideas towards the past presentations of her character to have 'new light' that we enjoy and welcomed to canon of the 616 version presentation.

I'm very happy of the writers and artists for that character crafted that is 616 MJ and when the times where I might subjectively see as a derailment/negatives happened (not flaws and mistakes as that is human and good for full compilated characters but more of that mind confusing choices and statements 616 MJ is written to do that clashes with what was presented to us and I don't see why or maybe the writer had plans but then lacked the time to show why MJ did what she was presented to do) such times didn't leave any or to much to hurt her overall story/character thus far.

Each writer does give 616 MJ and others possible new voices (every time a new writer and artist in any comic series comes in the characters have a shift in various ways) and right now there were good times and other times. But I like to write Thank You Writers and Artists for your imagination and hard work that 616 MJ is who she is presented to us. As for characters we don't care about presently...there still present & future writers that can make massive changes to how we feel and change out perspectives or make developments potential.

[Spider-Tiger]

Blue isn't canon because it would override Lee/Romita. Just think of it as an AU and you'll be fine.

Yeah...you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to make it work. Either they retconned Lee/Romita (but the events that happened differently in Blue have been referenced as they occured in Lee/Romita whereas the Blue version never has) Or Peter is severely misremembering events like Flash's going away party that he remembers far more accurately just a couple years later in To Have and To Hold.

I take Blue as just a standalone homage to Lee/Romita. It wasn't written within the main title or as an adjunct to the main title like To Have and To Hold was.

And I do somewhat dislike Blue... not because I think it props up Gwen in any significant way over MJ. Perhaps someone could extrapolate that Peter loved Gwen more than Mary Jane, but I actually think MJ is given a bit more character in the story than Gwen is. I just find the execution to be a bit distasteful and flat though the art is lovely.

[Spiderfan001]

I agree MJ is one in a billion ( which is why I am on the “MJ or no one list”). But I actually think that the MJ that we know and love was around ( it just was hidden under the Party Girl image). Why do I believe that? Go back to ASM 122, where her intervention stopped Peter from acting on his worse instincts such as killing Norman ( a point I made before). I will also note that Conway created a character a short seven issues later in Frank Castle that could have been Peter without the presence of MJ. So the concept of revenge was certainly there in Conway’s mind.

I agree that there was a bit of MJ that we now know in Pre 130 ASM, but Gwen had such glimpses to such as standing up for Peter in front of May.
And I disagree, Peter's upbringing is what made him who he is.May and Ben, without any of his friends like Harry,Gwen and even MJ he would still be Spider-man.
He doesn't need anyone for that tbh, Even clark doesn't need Lois.Injustice was because of their baby and an entire city on top of lois that too by his own hand.

[Spiderfan001]

Yeah...you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to make it work. Either they retconned Lee/Romita (but the events that happened differently in Blue have been referenced as they occured in Lee/Romita whereas the Blue version never has) Or Peter is severely misremembering events like Flash's going away party that he remembers far more accurately just a couple years later in To Have and To Hold.

I take Blue as just a standalone homage to Lee/Romita. It wasn't written within the main title or as an adjunct to the main title like To Have and To Hold was.

And I do somewhat dislike Blue... not because I think it props up Gwen in any significant way over MJ. Perhaps someone could extrapolate that Peter loved Gwen more than Mary Jane, but I actually think MJ is given a bit more character in the story than Gwen is. I just find the execution to be a bit distasteful and flat though the art is lovely.

Again stuff like that happens.It's even part of a canon series, that's like saying an issue of a Batman mini isn't canon when the rest is.

The series it is part of is canon, and events are wildly different(like major deaths that happened that haven't in 616) or character are extremely out of character(Claws) it's canon unless said otherwise.Again to each their own, but until Marvel says it's not canon, it is.Then again Marvel itself isn't good at continuity management so who knows...

Yeah, I like it as a MJ story a whole lot.Like top 10 MJ stories for me.Execution is great, people feel uncomfortable(and I agree) but you have to realize the sh*t Peter goes through everyday is more than most go through in a life-time.Him taking a nostalgia trip and remembering old times is acceptable specially since we know he is one of the most decent human beings, not some sleazebag.The best part is MJ gets this too, her being understanding of this really is some amazing character showing.

The art is amazing.

[NC_Yankee]

One matter I feel we must keep in mind. MJ and Gwen are fictional characters. They never existed. But the fun of storytelling & charazation & what they make us feel and possible real influences somehow is a reality.

It's writers and artists who are the reason we have application posts and fan love or hate to characters. 616 MJ was (at first to readers that first read her debut issue when it came out and had no idea what the future would be) the beautiful wild party girl that also loved danger in her debut few issues when first shown to readers.

Then 616 MJ wasn't because we were told that by writers and artists that had such ideas and worked hard to showed us by their craft that she wasn't while trying not to conflict somehow the past that came to be. So much has come from writers and artists after her debut issue.
Writers and Artists (and executive meddling) are the reasons we feel what we feel and told & giving visuals to who characters are. Developments and derailments and more. All due to writer's imagination, desires, and what they could be able to tell. No idea how we will be writing about any characters 40 years from now, who will come to exist, and much more.

Fate could of been negative (or more positive) for 616 MJ if other writers from 1960's to today wrote Spider-Man. Gwen(s) and MJ(s) might of never existed as characters or pure existence at all if Stan Lee for some reason decided not to have them come to be formed from his experiences that influenced his brain and then time given to go from concepts to publish debut issue. Stan could of instead for ant reasons focus on Betty or a new girl created (that we would of loved or hate or not think about at all) and stories. 616 Gwen and 616 MJ would not be who they are today if writers had other ideas for them that we came to feel 'who they are' because we were told as such within history.

Possible road not taken was that Conway not caring for Gwen (understandable as writers are human and we care and don't care about various characters + sometimes can have what is felt to be good ideas for some characters while having no ideas for others) and no ideas towards making her somebody he would like to write of resulting in him simply having Gwen just leave on a taxi for his whole run.
Doing so another writer then used her in their tales and suddenly a change happens and 616 Gwen in how we se her due to developments and derailments would have a new history.

A series of writers that 616 MJ had we are fortunate to write her becoming currently who she is now is who we should value making her go beyond other comic characters that are similar to her from her debut time in other comics and writers giving deep developments, insights, and making positive changes to her character by new ideas towards the past presentations of her character to have 'new light' that we enjoy and welcomed to canon of the 616 version presentation.

I'm very happy of the writers and artists for that character crafted that is 616 MJ and when the times where I might subjectively see as a derailment/negatives happened (not flaws and mistakes as that is human and good for full compilated characters but more of that mind confusing choices and statements 616 MJ is written to do that clashes with what was presented to us and I don't see why or maybe the writer had plans but then lacked the time to show why MJ did what she was presented to do) such times didn't leave any or to much to hurt her overall story/character thus far.

Each writer does give 616 MJ and others possible new voices (every time a new writer and artist in any comic series comes in the characters have a shift in various ways) and right now there were good times and other times. But I like to write Thank You Writers and Artists for your imagination and hard work that 616 MJ is who she is presented to us. As for characters we don't care about presently...there still present & future writers that can make massive changes to how we feel and change out perspectives or make developments potential.

You can say the same thing for Felicia: Created by a bad Spider-Man writer ( Marv Wolfman), she too evolved over time. One thing you overlook is this: The one responsible for Gwen is not Stan, Romita sr or Conway, it is actually Ditko who created Gwen ( along with Peter, JJJ, Norman, Otto, Beck, Dillion, Aunt May and many, many more ( he even had the original idea of MJ ( although Romita sr first wrote her)). There is one other group that is overlooked: That is the fans. They are the ones who kept the interest in MJ going ( newspaper strip during the Slott run for example). Also keep in mind that she was written out of the book numerous times ( including by Romita sr), but every time someone at Marvel wanted her gone, the fans wanted her back. There is little doubt that if the majority of fans wanted Gwen over MJ, she would have been brought back ( and I do not mean as a different character ( I mean as the one who died)). Keep in mind, Norman who died in the following issue, was brought back. ps. You can apply the same principle to Felicia: If the majority of fans wanted her over MJ, she would be the primary love interest not MJ. For me as an MJ fan, beyond the writing it comes down to this: The fiery redhead over the cool blonde. Romita, Conway, the criminally underrated Stern and yes, Spencer just filled in the details.

[Spiderfan001]

You can say the same thing for Felicia: Created by a bad Spider-Man writer ( Marv Wolfman), she too evolved over time. One thing you overlook is this: The one responsible for Gwen is not Stan, Romita sr or Conway, it is actually Ditko who created Gwen ( along with Peter, JJJ, Norman, Otto, Beck, Dillion, Aunt May and many, many more ( he even had the original idea of MJ ( although Romita sr first wrote her)). There is one other group that is overlooked: That is the fans. They are the ones who kept the interest in MJ going ( newspaper strip during the Slott run for example). Also keep in mind that she was written out of the book numerous times ( including by Romita sr), but every time someone at Marvel wanted her gone, the fans wanted her back. There is little doubt that if the majority of fans wanted Gwen over MJ, she would have been brought back ( and I do not mean as a different character ( I mean as the one who died)). Keep in mind, Norman who died in the following issue, was brought back. ps. You can apply the same principle to Felicia: If the majority of fans wanted her over MJ, she would be the primary love interest not MJ. For me as an MJ fan, beyond the writing it comes down to this: The fiery redhead over the cool blonde. Romita, Conway, the criminally underrated Stern and yes, Spencer just filled in the details.

The fans always found MJ better than Gwen, they mentioned this in an interview.
Honestly comic book MJ is supreme, when I think of Gwen I go TASM and the games tied-in to it.That's my Gwen.Ideal MJ is from comics or spectacular, minus some stuff out of the comics she really is the best love interest character and character in general.

[Grapeweasel]

It was 1973.

If Gwen was knocked off the bridge and landed on Mary Jane you wouldn't have missed either of them......