Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2021

[AngelJD]

I agree there is a great power & influenced that fans have if not sometimes being an influencing factor to possibly executives, writers, and artists then towards the general public by how we possibly advertise 'characters' from: forum topics, general conversations, social media posts, and fan arts/works.
We are ambassadors of '616 MJ' and other characters we might be fans of (sometimes good or bad). Though we are also individuals influenced by various factors and have a great possibly to have different viewpoint and ideas to the very same character version we are a fan of.

But if you look to WHO(S)/WHAT(S) made it possible for 'fans' to care about any versions of any characters? Fans don't come from a blank void. Something has to make you a 'fan'. There are people who work to make you a 'fan' or made something that by chance just captured you and others. Writers, various artists from Designers, penciler, inker, colors, panel and tone planning, ect and even a bit of Marketers somehow found and able to create a fascination to draw us in and hold us somehow.

Writers and Artists also can be part of the 'fans' category as well for many characters. They as well were/is influenced by stories/works from others or other many various ways inspirations can come about that spark new ideas & hard work from them.

Before any 'fans' exist their has to be a writer(s) and artist(s) that brings life & possibilities/interests from characters. Something maybe small or large that gives birth to 'fans' of characters. Writers and artists work very hard in their craft hoping to tell stories that not just we would hopefully enjoy but they want to make (sometimes they might be forced not by desire but by executives, time, and other matters outside of their control yet even so they try their best still for positive craftsmanship & outcomes). Writing and designing characters born from imagination that was sparked by anything from life experiences, a small moment in time, other art, cultures, small talk, ect.

Every character unless the creators desired for a character to be hated (not 'love seeing them be vile' but actual hate hate) or people to feel neutral towards is designed to capture us and have some sort of 1st purpose/role that hopefully evolves the story, developments, tones, and more of themselves and/or other characters and plot plus possibly the target market readers and maybe for new readers. In time new ideas from the same creators or other allowed to use such characters somehow continue to expand their possibilities or towards the other directions.

No question in looking to the history of comics and characters for certain time periods with the focus the time both was being crafted fictional character 616 MJ was more popular then fictional character 616 Gwen even if that may or may not been the desired intent from some creators (all art is subjective thus even if a writer and artist might aim for intent to one direction they are hoping for it can curve to any direction from others sometimes). Still writers and artists are the one's that have powers they earned by hard work to create and give influences (intentional or not) both positives and negatives to any character.
Some building off from each other while others move in different directions then what previous creators might of intended and we all hope in history it will be positively viewed somehow.

[Starrius]

You can say the same thing for Felicia: Created by a bad Spider-Man writer ( Marv Wolfman), she too evolved over time. One thing you overlook is this: The one responsible for Gwen is not Stan, Romita sr or Conway, it is actually Ditko who created Gwen ( along with Peter, JJJ, Norman, Otto, Beck, Dillion, Aunt May and many, many more ( he even had the original idea of MJ ( although Romita sr first wrote her)). There is one other group that is overlooked: That is the fans. They are the ones who kept the interest in MJ going ( newspaper strip during the Slott run for example). Also keep in mind that she was written out of the book numerous times ( including by Romita sr), but every time someone at Marvel wanted her gone, the fans wanted her back. There is little doubt that if the majority of fans wanted Gwen over MJ, she would have been brought back ( and I do not mean as a different character ( I mean as the one who died)). Keep in mind, Norman who died in the following issue, was brought back. ps. You can apply the same principle to Felicia: If the majority of fans wanted her over MJ, she would be the primary love interest not MJ. For me as an MJ fan, beyond the writing it comes down to this: The fiery redhead over the cool blonde. Romita, Conway, the criminally underrated Stern and yes, Spencer just filled in the details.

Felicia is my second favorite love interest for Peter after Mary Jane who has always been my favorite since I was a little kid in 1970s.
I also like Betty.

[Spiderfan001]

Felicia is my second favorite love interest for Peter after Mary Jane who has always been my favorite since I was a little kid in 1970s.
I also like Betty.

Same,
I like Gwen in second or third after MJ and tie-ed with Cat but only the TASM game and movie versions.

[Starrius]

Same,
I like Gwen in second or third after MJ and tie-ed with Cat but only the TASM game and movie versions.

I don't like Spider-Man and Black Cat: The Evil that Men Do
It really disrespects Peter and Mary Jane's marriage.
Black Cat french-kissed Spider-Man on the mouth with his full mask completely on, and people were looking up and seeing it.
He let her and seem like he was enjoying it.
This came off like fan-fiction.

[Spiderfan001]

I don't like Spider-Man and Black Cat: The Evil that Men Do
It really disrespects Peter and Mary Jane's marriage.
Black Cat french-kissed Spider-Man on the mouth with his full mask completely on, and people were looking up and seeing it.
He let her and seem like he was enjoying it.
This came off like fan-fiction.

Wait, that was during marriage.That's not cool.
I enjoy the writing and Felicia being hung up and missing Spider-man makes sense but Spider-man(and MJ) would never cheat.Even cat wouldn't sleep with him if he's married and committed to it.
The assualt was BS as well.
I just ignore that part and keep the rest in my head-canon.

[Starrius]

Wait, that was during marriage.That's not cool.
I enjoy the writing and Felicia being hung up and missing Spider-man makes sense but Spider-man(and MJ) would never cheat.Even cat wouldn't sleep with him if he's married and committed to it.
The assualt was BS as well.
I just ignore that part and keep the rest in my head-canon.

Yep...during the marriage
That's why I don't like the mini-series

There are Spider-Man/Black Cat fans that even use this mini-series as an example of why Black Cat is the one for Peter instead of Mary Jane.

I am a Batman/Catwoman fan since I was a little kid in 1970s, but I am not a fan of Spider-Man/Black Cat due to my being a a fan of Peter/Mary Jane since I was a little kid in 1970s.

If Mary Jane was out of the picture, I'd like Peter and Felicia as a couple.


Black Cat is a like a copy of Catwoman who has been around since 1940.
Batman and Catwoman were in a relationship years before Spider-Man and Black Cat were.

[Spiderfan001]

Yep...during the marriage
That's why I don't like the mini-series

There are Spider-Man/Black Cat fans who even use this mini-series as an example of why Black Cat is the one for Peter instead of Mary Jane.

I am a Batman/Catwoman fan since I was a little kid in 1970s, but I am not a fan of Spider-Man/Black Cat due to my being a a fan of Peter/Mary Jane since I was a little kid in 1970s.

If Mary Jane was out of the picture, I'd like Peter and Felicia as a couple.


Black Cat is a like a copy of Catwoman who has been around since 1940.
Batman and Catwoman were in a relationship years before Spider-Man and Black Cat were.

Oh okay.

OOC stuff shouldn't be used for such comparisons.And everyone has the right to their own ships.

I like Black Cat and she should be a part of Spider-man's romantic history but she isn't endgame imo.

There was a time when Black Cat was better, these days Spencer's black Cat is my fav.Then Ram V's catwoman and then Jed's Black cat.

[Starrius]

I am thinking of creating a comic vine thread for Peter and Mary Jane like I did for Dick and Kory.

I am reading the old Spider-Man comics. There is so much stuff that makes Peter/Mary Jane pairing very iconic. Yeah...The 20 year marriage helps quite a bit.


I liked the 90s stuff the most. I was in my 20s when I read their marriage years back in the 1990s.
The one thing that made me think of Mary Jane's strength as Peter's wife was Time Bomb during the Second Clone Saga.
She helped Peter break Jackal's programming while risking her own life when Peter was in the process of trying to kill her. Like Ben thought, what Mary Jane did took brains and guts.
This one of the reasons why I cannot take One Moment In Time seriously. Joe Quesada wrote that to make Mary Jane look weak. He even had Mary Jane telling Peter that he needs to find a woman that is strong enough for him and implied that she's not for him.
Quesada didn't want to just end Peter's marriage. He wanted to end the idea that Mary Jane was right woman for Peter. One Moment In Time was quite obviously written to make Mary Jane look weak and to be the wrong woman for Peter.


What I like about Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was that it was the perfect 'imperfect' marriage.
What I mean is that it was a marriage with its ups and downs (more ups and downs) and seemed Three Dimensional without too much lovey-dovey stuff. They had great challenges and obstacles. They argued and yelled at each other. They walked out on one another at times. Doors slammed. There were doubts and insecurities that they had about how their selves as partners.
When they made up, it was beautiful like when Peter apologized for yelling at Mary Jane when they argued about Harry as Green Goblin, and he apologized with a bunch of flowers.
There was a lot of pain in their relationship because of Peter endangering his life as Spider-mAN, but their love for each other didn't waver.
Peter's love of Mary Jane and wanting go back home to her helped him overcome the odds.
Mary Jane not giving up on Peter during the Second Clone Saga had to have been a great help for Peter.
Peter broke down more than once, but Mary Jane kept herself together and fought for their marriage.

There was lots of depth in Peter and Mary Jane's marriage. It was like reading a real married couple but they had extraordinary challenges due to Peter being a superhero.
I never found their relationship boring.


That's why Peter/Mary Jane is my favorite comic book pairing of all time.
Dick/Kory is my second favorite, and that's because of the 1980-1994 Wolfman run that I read back in 2018 after being Dick/Barbara fan since Batman Animated series and the DC animated movie The Judas Contract. I ended up strongly disliking Dick/Barbara after reading and learning the retcons including especially Dick having sex with Barbara the night before his wedding with Kory
Batman/Catwoman is my third favorite.
Scott/Jean is my fourth favorite, but it feels tainted with Logan and Emma
Clark/Lois is my fifth favorite

Peter/Mary Jane is my favorite pairing and ahead of my second favorite by a lot

unfortunately, I wasn't really a fan of Peter/Mary Jane in the movies
I actually liked Peter/Gwen in the movies more

I just didn't like Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane. I didn't like how she was depicted in the movies.
I think that I liked them to start with Betty and Liz as love interests and then leading to Gwen and Mary Jane. I'd like to see the 3rd movie ending with Gwen killed and Mary Jane comforting Peter. The 4th movie would be about his dating Mary Jane.
I didn't like the 'Peter had a crush on Mary Jane when he was a little kid stuff' that May was talking to Peter about. I actually cringed a little while listening to that.

[Huntsman Spider]

If I recall right, since Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do started in 2001, that was in a period where Peter and MJ were still separated. Married, but separated. Since it was before Peter and Mary Jane got back together for good (barring One More Day), I don't necessarily hold it against Peter, though in retrospect, it wasn't exactly a good look. I can admit that much.

Also, Starrius's last post here is truth and fire. So much fire. So much truth.

[Spiderfan001]

If I recall right, since Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do started in 2001, that was in a period where Peter and MJ were still separated. Married, but separated. Since it was before Peter and Mary Jane got back together for good (barring One More Day), I don't necessarily hold it against Peter, though in retrospect, it wasn't exactly a good look. I can admit that much.

Also, Starrius's last post here is truth and fire. So much fire. So much truth.

Yeah, that makes more sense.

And most if not every line in the big post above is straight facts

[Starrius]

I got into a debate with a Black Cat fan in DC's Titans facebook group. He really annoyed with his remarks about Mary Jane

I had typed:
I actually converted from being a Dick/Babs fan to being a Dick/Kory fan after reading the 1980-1996 Wolfman run comics and the The Judas Contract movie back in 2018 which led me to create a thread on them at Comic Vine.
Before that, I was a Dick/Babs fan for almost 20 years as the result of the Batman animated series.
Now I strongly dislike the pairing.
Dick/Kory is my 2nd favorite comic book pairing after Peter/Mary Jane. My 3rd favorite is Bruce/Selina. My 4th favorite is Scott/Jean. My 5th favorite is Clark/Lois.
I really like Barbara in the Titans show, but I definitely prefer Dick with Barbara as just a friend and Kory as his love interest.


He replied:
Guess, for each those own. In comics I’ve always liked Grayson with Barb, though I did like him with Kory in this show.

Peter Parker is in a comfort relationship with MJ. Him and Felicia are more complimentary, but Felicia has had to deal with lots of Trauma. But her love of adventure but need for stability is good for Parker who becomes complacent, but needs adventure.

I retorted:
Mary Jane had a troubled past too, and she overcame it to be a more supportive wife to Peter and even stuck by him during the 2nd Clone Saga even when he was thought to be a clone. She risked her life from getting killed by Peter and helped him break Jackal's programming. They were married from 1987 to 2008 until Joe Quesada came up with a ridiculous demonic deal to end their marriage to save Peter's Aunt May who got shot as the result of Peter unmasking in front of the entire world.
I read the old comics. Felicia only loved Spider-Man and she didn't love Peter. When he took his mask off, she yelled at him to put his mask back on. She wanted Peter to be Spider-Man all the time. She was amoral and didn't understand why Peter became Spider-Man. She went straight because of Peter and not because she believed that stealing was wrong. She got powers from the Kingpin, but she kept that a secret from him. That relationship was doomed from the start. She ended up playing him as she got into a fling with the Foreigner. She was hating him for dumping her and interfering with the powers that she gained. After she found out that Peter and Mary Jane were married, she started dating Flash and physically threatened Mary Jane as well as was deluded about Peter is going to leave Mary Jane for her. She changed later on and she became a friend to both Peter and Mary Jane. I prefer Felicia to just be friends with Peter. She was in love with Peter in the 2000s, and Mary Jane picked up on it before Peter did. That motivated Felicia to help Peter out.


He responded:
Everyone has had some trauma, but Felicias trauma takes the cake.
Like I said, to each their own opinion. Peter and MJ relationship has been pretty toxic, to be honest. MJ to me has always been just the woman that Peter falls back to. Recently she has become more like Louis, which is fine. Works a bit better for her dating a man with a lifestyle like Peters.
Felicia, in the other hand, compliments Peter’s personality more. She fills in the gaps he has, since he is always pulled towards the life of a superhero. She is fun and adventurous, which is something Peter often fails to get due to his complacency. And, Peter is grounded, which is something Felicia needs.
MJ is good wife. She is a good woman for a man who has a simple life. Who doesn’t need adventure and fun like how Peter needs it. For a man that doesn’t need to always be going on the next rescue mission, etc.

I retorted:
toxic??? Black Cat's relationship with Peter has been toxic!! She didn't even love him as Peter. She even endangered his secret identity during their relationship.

There are a lot of comic panels of Peter and Mary Jane supporting each other as well as having fun in their marriage. Mary Jane wasn't just some woman that just stayed home and be some housewife. She was independent and had a career of her own without breaking the law. She could take care of herself. She has saved her own life from others at times. She is not physically great as Black Cat, but she is courageous. She was quite sane and emotionally stable, and she also helped ground Peter. They complemented each other too. She accepted both Peter Parker and Spider-Man.

Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was at its most successful, mature, and stable during the JMS period after they ended their brief separation after Mary Jane was rescued after she was kidnapped and thought to be dead for many months.

If Peter and Mary Jane pairing is toxic, then Peter and Felicia pairing is way more toxic.

[Jman27]

first how did black cat get brought up in titans lol? second why debate relationships like whats to gain ultimately?

[Starrius]

first how did black cat get brought up in titans lol? second why debate relationships like whats to gain ultimately?

I guess that you skipped the beginning of my post


I had typed:
I actually converted from being a Dick/Babs fan to being a Dick/Kory fan after reading the 1980-1996 Wolfman run comics and the The Judas Contract movie back in 2018 which led me to create a thread on them at Comic Vine.
Before that, I was a Dick/Babs fan for almost 20 years as the result of the Batman animated series.
Now I strongly dislike the pairing.
Dick/Kory is my 2nd favorite comic book pairing after Peter/Mary Jane. My 3rd favorite is Bruce/Selina. My 4th favorite is Scott/Jean. My 5th favorite is Clark/Lois.
I really like Barbara in the Titans show, but I definitely prefer Dick with Barbara as just a friend and Kory as his love interest.


I didn't want to get into a debate. He was typing negative stuff about Mary Jane while claiming Black Cat is better.

I was making rebuttals and defending Mary Jane.

[Jman27]

I guess that you skipped the beginning of my post


I had typed:
I actually converted from being a Dick/Babs fan to being a Dick/Kory fan after reading the 1980-1996 Wolfman run comics and the The Judas Contract movie back in 2018 which led me to create a thread on them at Comic Vine.
Before that, I was a Dick/Babs fan for almost 20 years as the result of the Batman animated series.
Now I strongly dislike the pairing.
Dick/Kory is my 2nd favorite comic book pairing after Peter/Mary Jane. My 3rd favorite is Bruce/Selina. My 4th favorite is Scott/Jean. My 5th favorite is Clark/Lois.
I really like Barbara in the Titans show, but I definitely prefer Dick with Barbara as just a friend and Kory as his love interest.


I didn't want to get into a debate. He was typing negative stuff about Mary Jane while claiming Black Cat is better.

I was making rebuttals and defending Mary Jane.

oh i skim it wrong my bad. does mj need defending considering she won the shipping war? like the outcome will never change. same with how when naruto or bleach ended people were mad at one ship not coming thru but other had. But like whats the points its written in stone. I think sometimes there will be those who make good points but I see that rarely and more so its just one side crapping on the other side to prop up their own.

[marhawkman]

oh i skim it wrong my bad. does mj need defending considering she won the shipping war? like the outcome will never change. same with how when naruto or bleach ended people were mad at one ship not coming thru but other had. But like whats the points its written in stone. I think sometimes there will be those who make good points but I see that rarely and more so its just one side crapping on the other side to prop up their own.

Well Naruto didn't start out by establishing romantic affiliations. They just had a bunch of characters who at first were a bit too young for that. Then at the end of the original Naruto run there were canonically established romantic affiliations that had been written out in the story. This was several years of story writing on the part of the writer of the series. During this time fans made all sorts of fan ideas, and some got upset that their ideas didn't get used. Well there were multiple ships by fans that conflicted, so there was no way any solution would have satisfied them all so it was inevitable that the writer just ran with what made sense to him based on what he had been planning as he wrote the story. For example: Sakura... there is an entire list of ships for her... and also Naruto himself. It's inevitable that it's not going to satisfy most people. I liked some of the official pairings. Naruto+Hinata was basically canonical starting halfway in the series. It should surprise no one that he married her. Now Sasuke? He had a list of choices in-universe. Karin? Sakura?(among others) He ended up with Sakura. What annoyed me more was how some characters ended up not having one at all. Like Karin... doesn't end up with Sasuke... or anyone. Realistically... this was probably because he didn't feel like writing that many more characters. He's kinda sorta leaving them on the sidelines and writing out family lives for them isn't in the story plan.