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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Really late, but since it's still technically National Siblings Day somewhere...

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  2. #77
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    It's a small thing, but the way that first sentence is phrased --"get away from"-- sounds to me like something bad happened, or worse, that there will be some dumb "running away from your problems" element to the story. I had more than my fill of that in Bennett's series (as much as I liked it), and I'd rather not go through it again. But hopefully I'm wrong and just overreacting.

    A new Yasmine Putri cover is most welcome, though.
    Graduating her out from directly under Bruce's shadow isn't necessarily a bad move. Nightwing has Bludhaven. Depends on how it's done.

    Coryanna didn't work so well, but that may have been a testing of the waters. If they came up with a good story reason to put her, Bette, Renee, and Jacob in a different city it could freshen things up. I seriously doubt that's what they're doing here though. I know you'll say why would she leave Gotham it's her home and all that, but various people move homes for a variety of reasons.

    IMO since she rarely interacts with the rest of the Batfamily, apart from showing-up for the occasional cameo like she's just there for a magazine shoot, she might as well be in a different city anyway.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I know you'll say why would she leave Gotham it's her home and all that, but various people move homes for a variety of reasons.
    Sure they do, but real people aren't beholden to some kind of running narrative. What would Kate or any of those characters changing cities actually do, specifically? What would be the actual thing changing there? And that's not even accounting for the why.
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  4. #79
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    What would Kate or any of those characters changing cities actually do, specifically? What would be the actual thing changing there? And that's not even accounting for the why
    Change things-up, put them in a different environment, and introduce an alternative set of circumstances. A different city will have a different group of criminals and social structure to that of Gotham. It could be an opportunity to create a unique rogue's gallery for her, for one thing, and maybe even expand her support cast. It also largely erases the issue of 'why doesn't she just call in the Batfamily for backup', when things get out of hand.

    As for the why, how about a why not. It could keep things from stagnating. Maybe she joins a team, and their headquarters aren't in Gotham, but the work they're doing is important. Gotham isn't the only city that needs protecting. And not all Batfamily members have to stay stationed in Gotham, nor do they all.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Change things-up, put them in a different environment, and introduce an alternative set of circumstances. A different city will have a different group of criminals and social structure to that of Gotham.
    Why is that needed? Why do something as drastic as changing cities? If it's really so vital to shake things up for her (I disagree it is), then find an element of Gotham's crime world she's not gone up against. She's never dealt with the mob in any significant capacity, for instance.

    It could be an opportunity to create a unique rogue's gallery for her, for one thing, and maybe even expand her support cast.
    Again, why? She technically does have a rogues gallery already, but part of what I like is that it doesn't really feel like a typical one. You mentioned hopefully "Graduating her out from directly under Bruce's shadow" (I strongly disagree that that hasn't already happened, but that's a different topic), but yet you want to make her more like Batman by doing this? I don't get that reasoning.

    It also largely erases the issue of 'why doesn't she just call in the Batfamily for backup', when things get out of hand.
    Has that ever been a question? At all? Have there ever been any situations where that would've applied? I can't think of any.

    As for the why, how about a why not. It could keep things from stagnating.
    I mean, that's not a reason. I don't understand why you think things are stagnating with her. She's not appearing regularly enough for things to stagnate. Every single one of her series has had a different premise, and she's never had one that's just a "typical" sort of series. How about doing one of those first before any of this moving cities nonsense? Not just change for change's sake.
    Last edited by Caivu; 04-17-2021 at 08:54 PM.
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  6. #81
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    but yet you want to make her more like Batman by doing this? I don't get that reasoning.
    Where are you even getting that interpretation from - I never said anything about making her more like Batman. If anything, taking her out of Gotham makes her less like Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    I mean, that's not a reason. I don't understand why you think things are stagnating with her. She's not appearing regularly enough for things to stagnate.
    Nothing interesting is happening with her. Mostly she just shows-up for cameo's in Batfamily events to remind everyone she exists. And changing things up to make things interesting is a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    How about doing one of those first before any of this moving cities nonsense? Not just change for change's sake.
    You don't agree, and that's fine, but that doesn't invalidate my opinion. But if you're going to be a jerk about it, Caivu, I'm not going to engage in this discussion with you any further. I could dismiss your ideas as "nonsense" too, but that would be rude.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Where are you even getting that interpretation from - I never said anything about making her more like Batman.
    You mentioned giving her a dedicated, official rogues gallery like most other superheroes, and most famously Batman, has. The fact that she doesn't have one (at least in such a strict sense) is something unique about her. It's part of how she bends away from many typical superhero tropes.

    Nothing interesting is happening with her. Mostly she just shows-up for cameo's in Batfamily events to remind everyone she exists.
    But it doesn't follow that therefore the answer is "move her to another city." There's no connection there, when the much simpler answer is "just use her in something in Gotham."

    And changing things up to make things interesting is a reason.
    I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about in-story reasons, and there aren't any story reasons why her work would be stagnating. From a story standpoint, a character standpoint, how does this idea make any sense at all? Changing things just for the sake of changing them isn't a reason, because it's not based on anything concrete. That's what I'm looking for.

    You don't agree, and that's fine, but that doesn't invalidate my opinion. But if you're going to be a jerk about it, Caivu, I'm not going to engage in this discussion with you any further.
    My apologies. But I'm just so tired of this sort of stuff in regards to Kate. I'm tired of seemingly everyone wanting to overcomplicate her for no other reason than "just because." Whether that be story, or character, anything. I've been seeing that stuff for years here and there, and it's annoying, because it's almost never based on anything substantial.
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  8. #83
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    You mentioned giving her a dedicated, official rogues gallery like most other superheroes, and most famously Batman, has. The fact that she doesn't have one (at least in such a strict sense) is something unique about her. It's part of how she bends away from many typical superhero tropes.
    The one interesting villain she had was Alice, who is now redeemed/recovering (IMO they need to show more of what Beth is up to now). Personally I didn't think much of Safiya and the Knife, but perhaps they could be further developed. Wolf-Spider and Colony-Prime were also meh IMO. She needs some more interesting ones, rather than just renting the typical Batman/family baddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    But it doesn't follow that therefore the answer is "move her to another city." There's no connection there, when the much simpler answer is "just use her in something in Gotham."
    The last time I was genuinely excited about something they'd done with her was the 'Gotham City Monsters' mini, but that was a one-off it seems, and nothing new and dynamic has happened with her since. Sure, she gets to appear in Batfamily events, mostly as short cameo's, and she gets the occasional guest appearance or one-shot, but it's typical 'look-badass' stuff that does nothing interesting with the character. There's no long-game ongoing narrative, and we rarely see her life out-of-costume anymore, or for that matter her relationship with other characters outside of her hero persona. It's all look cool and punch things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    My apologies. But I'm just so tired of this sort of stuff in regards to Kate. I'm tired of seemingly everyone wanting to overcomplicate her for no other reason than "just because." Whether that be story, or character, anything. I've been seeing that stuff for years here and there, and it's annoying, because it's almost never based on anything substantial.
    It's not "just because", it's that we want something to get excited about, instead of more of the same and just 'looking cool'. The ROC, the fight with Batman (the first time, but now that's been done to death) and the DEO blackmail - exciting stuff used to happen. I wasn't the biggest fan of the Tynion 'Tec run, but at least fun stories were happening there too, even if personally I hated what was done with Jacob. Plus, I wish they'd bring Bette back and have them as partners again.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    She needs some more interesting ones, rather than just renting the typical Batman/family baddies.
    Why, though? That just seems like it would flatten her out and make her like any other superhero. It's a good thing that she doesn't have a standard rogues gallery, because not only does that help her stand out, it puts more of the focus on her.

    It's not "just because", it's that we want something to get excited about, instead of more of the same and just 'looking cool'.
    This is the exact problem I'm talking about. You want something new and different without any apparent regard for what it is or whether it makes sense for the story or the character. Just as long as it's new and shakes things up. That's what I'm saying when I use the phrase "just because," since it doesn't seem like there's anything of substance attached to it. If there is, then what is it? That's what I'm not understanding.
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  10. #85
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Why, though? That just seems like it would flatten her out and make her like any other superhero. It's a good thing that she doesn't have a standard rogues gallery, because not only does that help her stand out, it puts more of the focus on her.
    Because she needs excellent villains to bounce off of IMO. A dynamic narrative needs compelling villains, and some real struggle. Best way to do that is to make things personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    This is the exact problem I'm talking about. You want something new and different without any apparent regard for what it is or whether it makes sense for the story or the character. Just as long as it's new and shakes things up. That's what I'm saying when I use the phrase "just because," since it doesn't seem like there's anything of substance attached to it. If there is, then what is it? That's what I'm not understanding.
    Well, you're assuming a lot there about other people's motivations because of a lack of specificity. Character motivation, setting, story, and plot - that's what the writer's are for. Most fans aren't professional writers after all: so when people say they want something to happen, it's just that - they want something to happen, but they don't have any specific ideas because they want the writer's to do that part.

  11. #86
    Fantastic Member Twice-named's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I wasn't the biggest fan of the Tynion 'Tec run, but at least fun stories were happening there too, even if personally I hated what was done with Jacob.
    Perfect example of “just because.”

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice-named View Post
    Perfect example of “just because.”
    Not really. That fit in with his character and provided an explanation for where he was during Andreyko's run.
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  13. #88
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice-named View Post
    Perfect example of “just because.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Not really. That fit in with his character and provided an explanation for where he was during Andreyko's run.
    I've taken to the line of thinking that outside of Rucka and J.H. William III - most writers seem to have it in for Jacob for whatever reason.

    He was absent from both Andreyko and Bennett's runs, and a villain in Tynion's. I've also heard rumor that in the TV show he gets abducted and manipulated every other episode, and is now a drug addict. True or not: I'm not going to watch it to find out.

    I guess the comic writer's think Kate having a loving and supporting father makes her less of a 'tragic-bat' or something.

  14. #89
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    For the DC Pride anthology I believe:

    https://twitter.com/Trungles/status/1385372662428422147


  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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