Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456789 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 134
  1. #76
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    62,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Why are they even bothering writing a Wonder Woman film to begin with when Rucka already did it for them? Seriously, any of his stories would have been preferable. Could you imagine they did Sacrifice and actually had Cavill's Superman? Stoned, Godwatch? That would have served Cheetah and Maxwell Lord better.
    I mean, I love Superman but I don't think he needed to be in a Wonder Woman film...and unless we were fine with some Wonder Rogues just being henchmen (considering the complaints about Cheetah) I don't think Godwatch would have worked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    And now people on Twitter have found a pic of WW from BvS wearing the severed heads of her enemies as trophies and are demanding Patty put that into WW3. Because clearly Zack Snyder’s version of WW is what they should be drawing on more. Lmao wtf?
    Well that's...concerning.

  2. #77
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Bronx, New York
    Posts
    9,188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But then we would've needed to change Diana's wish and how that effected the plot. I think her heroics and trying to befriend Barbara showed her attempt to move on from her losses in some way.
    I wouldn't have Diana make a wish at all. I feel the opening scene of the movie is pointless as the theme it establishes isn't maintained.

  3. #78
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    I wouldn't have Diana make a wish at all. I feel the opening scene of the movie is pointless as the theme it establishes isn't maintained.
    The point of the opening scene is to introduce the idea that there are no shortcuts to happiness. Diana has to move on to other people instead of just wishing for Steve to come back. Barbara has to find a way to be proud of herself instead of trying to change who she is. The harder path is the true path. Same thing for Max Lord. It's not expressed very clearly but it is there.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    I wouldn't have Diana make a wish at all.
    Why not? I think it's the most relatable part of her story; even the woman that seems to have it all has a wish. Then, at the end, she, too, has to give up that wish; she's not asking for everybody else to do something that she hasn't done herself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    ... I feel the opening scene of the movie is pointless as the theme it establishes isn't maintained.
    I'm surprised by this. "Nothing truly great is born from a lie" is the entire theme of the movie, no?

  5. #80
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    11,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Honestly I preferred parts of the movie take compared to how Rucka handled it.

    The build up to her becoming Cheetah and the envy that drove her to want powers felt better built up and not as abrupt, and her being Cheetah wasn't a "woe is me" moment. She had more agency with Lord than she did with Cale and Godwatch.
    She actually had less.

    Movie Barbara made an innocent wish without seriously expecting it would work, and the stone (and outside force) gradually sapped her empathy as the price for her wish. She didn't make a choice for that to happen.

    Rucka's Barbara Ann is sympathetic, but her own hubris lead her down her path. She CHOSE not to heed Diana's warning, Cale and the twins just sped up the inevitable and kept Diana out of the way. She went back to Cale later because she wanted the power without the drawbacks, but got pissed at Cale for not delivering. She rejected Diana and Circe's spell to cure her. She deflects blame for her own faults, so she's not too sympathetic and actually has more agency than she appears to at first.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Jesus, that's not real is it?

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    2,428

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Jesus, that's not real is it?
    It is, fortunately or unfortunately.

  7. #82
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    62,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She actually had less.

    Movie Barbara made an innocent wish without seriously expecting it would work, and the stone (and outside force) gradually sapped her empathy as the price for her wish. She didn't make a choice for that to happen.

    Rucka's Barbara Ann is sympathetic, but her own hubris lead her down her path. She CHOSE not to heed Diana's warning, Cale and the twins just sped up the inevitable and kept Diana out of the way. She went back to Cale later because she wanted the power without the drawbacks, but got pissed at Cale for not delivering. She rejected Diana and Circe's spell to cure her. She deflects blame for her own faults, so she's not too sympathetic and actually has more agency than she appears to at first.
    She didn't really seem to mind when she realized what it did to her and because she enjoyed the benefits of the wish. I guess some of that was because she was losing her empathy but I think it was still her own choice at the end of the day and I don't think Rucka emphasized Barbara's choice as much as he could, it felt like we're supposed to feel like she was forced into becoming Cheetah rather than through her own choices at least in execution if not in intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    It is, fortunately or unfortunately.
    Well, fortunate in that it wasn't what they ended up with but unfortunate because it shows where Snyder's headspace was at.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,867

    Default

    I don't want Xena war-hungry WW, but the photo makes me curious what story could have been told with these elements.

    (I thought it was a gorgon head at first or something but it's not)


  9. #84
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    62,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I don't want Xena war-hungry WW, but the photo makes me curious what story could have been told with these elements.
    I think "Rule of Cool and Edge" were the driving reason.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    11,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    She didn't really seem to mind when she realized what it did to her and because she enjoyed the benefits of the wish. I guess some of that was because she was losing her empathy but I think it was still her own choice at the end of the day and I don't think Rucka emphasized Barbara's choice as much as he could, it felt like we're supposed to feel like she was forced into becoming Cheetah rather than through her own choices at least in execution if not in intent.
    I think the only instance where it seems she was forced to become Cheetah was when Cale gave her the power back in exchange for leaving Steve, Etta and Ferdinand alone. But even there Barbara rather easily "surrendered" herself to Cale before Etta's group was in any insurmountable danger. she could have escape with them, but she perhaps subconsciously jumped at the chance to take what Cale offered. Earlier, we have both Urzkartaga saying she spoke to him and expressing her envy of Diana's divine blessings and Phobos and Deimos saying she "would make the wrong choice." Both sets of Gods in question are assholes, but it seems consistent with Barbara Ann's obsessive behavior and Diana trying to warn her away from that path, and her not listening.

    She also contradicts herself by saying she called Diana for help, but also says she entered into a marriage pact with Urzkartaga willingly and things went south halfway through the ritual when he discovered she wasn't a virgin. There are elements of truth to her story, but she's not a reliable narrator and Diana is too close to her to see how flawed she is.

    In the movie, unlike the comics, it's not clear if the personal faults that lead to her becoming Cheetah are innately her own or if the stone is making her that way. Yeah, she's not completely Max's flunkie but her personality and decisions are compromised due to an outside factor. It doesn't help that the mechanics of the wishes are kind of vague and flimsy and she and Diana have only known each other for a few days. I think any successes with movie Barbara (who certainly has potential and should come back) are down to Wiig and Gadot having good chemistry with each other than the script giving them the best stuff to work with.

  11. #86
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Bronx, New York
    Posts
    9,188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Why not? I think it's the most relatable part of her story; even the woman that seems to have it all has a wish. Then, at the end, she, too, has to give up that wish; she's not asking for everybody else to do something that she hasn't done herself.
    For one thing the way the movie gave her the wish was contrived. She was the only character who didn't need to verbalize her wish when everyone else had to. I wouldn't have her make a wish as I would have like to have seen Barbara wish be responsible for her decaying relationship with Diana as losing her compassion was her monkey's paw. I would side step Diana making a wish by having her already be familiar with the wishing stone legend.

  12. #87
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, I like to think since that hasn't happened in the movies yet it wouldn't happen in the third film.

    I guess if we do get Cheetah and Circe in a film together it would be a mutual partnership like she had with Lord to some extent, and anything else comes down to direction and screentime.
    The problem is this version of Cheetah is not an interesting character, I do not really want to see this version of Cheetah again.

    She is another "revenge of the nerd" villain like 92 Catwoman, movie Riddler, movie Electro, the bad guy from Iron Man 3, etc. Outside of maybe Catwoman, none of those villains were interesting. Cheetah would need a revamp to be interesting enough to return, otherwise it would be best to focus on a new villain instead.

    Also those Cheetah effects were bad. I do not want to see that again, unless those effects are better next time.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 01-05-2021 at 05:36 PM.

  13. #88
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    62,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think the only instance where it seems she was forced to become Cheetah was when Cale gave her the power back in exchange for leaving Steve, Etta and Ferdinand alone. But even there Barbara rather easily "surrendered" herself to Cale before Etta's group was in any insurmountable danger. she could have escape with them, but she perhaps subconsciously jumped at the chance to take what Cale offered. Earlier, we have both Urzkartaga saying she spoke to him and expressing her envy of Diana's divine blessings and Phobos and Deimos saying she "would make the wrong choice." Both sets of Gods in question are assholes, but it seems consistent with Barbara Ann's obsessive behavior and Diana trying to warn her away from that path, and her not listening.

    She also contradicts herself by saying she called Diana for help, but also says she entered into a marriage pact with Urzkartaga willingly and things went south halfway through the ritual when he discovered she wasn't a virgin. There are elements of truth to her story, but she's not a reliable narrator and Diana is too close to her to see how flawed she is.
    The way Rucka framed it was pretty much a "sacrifice" on her part to save the team and emphasizing the tragedy of her becoming Cheetah again.

    If anything Rucka seems kind of inconsistent with how we're supposed to view her transforming into Cheetah and how culpable she is in her transformation, not helped by the fact that he never actually depicts the original transformation and what led up to it for Barbara on-panel. It just didn't feel as believable to me as it could have.
    In the movie, unlike the comics, it's not clear if the personal faults that lead to her becoming Cheetah are innately her own or if the stone is making her that way. Yeah, she's not completely Max's flunkie but her personality and decisions are compromised due to an outside factor. It doesn't help that the mechanics of the wishes are kind of vague and flimsy and she and Diana have only known each other for a few days. I think any successes with movie Barbara (who certainly has potential and should come back) are down to Wiig and Gadot having good chemistry with each other than the script giving them the best stuff to work with.
    I thought it was pretty clear that it was her own choice to not renounce the wish because she actually enjoyed the power and her newfound popularity. It's not like a lack of empathy made her less concerned about that and she was even still helping Diana up until she learned they were going to undo the wishes, which is why she decided to help Lord (who had no idea about her powers up to that point).

    They were still friends even if it wasn't a deep and longstanding one, but the setup was there for Barbara being jealous of Diana and Diana liking pre-Cheetah Barbara enough to see the tragedy of what she was transforming herself into.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    For one thing the way the movie gave her the wish was contrived. She was the only character who didn't need to verbalize her wish when everyone else had to. I wouldn't have her make a wish as I would have like to have seen Barbara wish be responsible for her decaying relationship with Diana as losing her compassion was her monkey's paw. I would side step Diana making a wish by having her already be familiar with the wishing stone legend.
    Barbara's wish and loss of empathy was the reason for the loss of her friendship with Diana, though?

    Diana making a wish and then renouncing it was pivotal to her character arc and how she related to the main conflict of the movie, especially in relation to everyone else when she needed to make them face the truth like she did. I don't think the emotional conflict as presented in the movie would be as strong had she not had a wish that she would eventually need to take back on her own terms. She needed to wish for something.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    The problem is this version of Cheetah is not an interesting character, I do not really want to see this version of Cheetah again.

    She is another "revenge of the nerd" villain like 92 Catwoman, movie Riddler, movie Electro, the bad guy from Iron Man 3, etc. Outside of maybe Catwoman, none of those villains were interesting. Cheetah would need a revamp to be interesting enough to return, otherwise it would be best to focus on a new villain instead.

    Also those Cheetah effects were bad. I do not want to see that again, unless those effects are better next time.
    I thought she was pretty interesting and I think the way they framed her character worked within the films depiction of her relationship with Diana and eventual transformation into Cheetah...and Jim Carrey's Riddler seems decently liked for his pure campiness.

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    11,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The way Rucka framed it was pretty much a "sacrifice" on her part to save the team and emphasizing the tragedy of her becoming Cheetah again.
    It was at first glance, but when you re-read the run and take into account Diana's assessment of her mental state in the next chapter of "the Truth," it becomes more clear that isn't a sacrifice on Barbara's part (at least not completely). The sacrifice was just a convenient excuse for the "addict' to slip back into her old pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If anything Rucka seems kind of inconsistent with how we're supposed to view her transforming into Cheetah and how culpable she is in her transformation, not helped by the fact that he never actually depicts the original transformation and what led up to it for Barbara on-panel. It just didn't feel as believable to me as it could have.
    I think the actual event should have been shown, and maybe it would have had he stayed on the book. But I think Barbara is clearly established as a brash glory seeker who deflects blame for her own failings onto others (chiefly Diana and Cale, but also even earlier with Dr. Martins) and isn't a reliable narrator to the point where we don't really need it shown. Her own personality and the dialogue of other characters paints the picture we need.

    Same when she rejects Diana and Circe's help out of spite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I thought it was pretty clear that it was her own choice to not renounce the wish because she actually enjoyed the power and her newfound popularity. It's not like a lack of empathy made her less concerned about that and she was even still helping Diana up until she learned they were going to undo the wishes, which is why she decided to help Lord (who had no idea about her powers up to that point).
    I don't know, the film has received criticism for her arc being put on the back burner and her switch seeming abrupt. The stone could be influencing her and exaggerating traits that are already there, but while Wiig's early scenes are great, we also needed more time to get to know her in order to know for sure where she truly ends and the wish effects really begin. I think Rucka's paints a more nuanced picture of what Barbara is like pre-Cheetah than this movie is able to.

    Her wanting to be an "Apex Predator" and specifically a cat-thing is also receiving some cocked eyebrows, even among reviewers who are onboard with her story before that. I don't think a transformation in a monstrous Cheetah form should ever be something Barbara really wants. Because it's a bizarre thing to desire. It makes more sense in Perez and Rucka's versions where she doesn't know 100% what she's getting into and it bites her in the ass hard.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I don't want Xena war-hungry WW, but the photo makes me curious what story could have been told with these elements.

    (I thought it was a gorgon head at first or something but it's not)

    Headcanon - The heads are just props; Diana likes to toss them at people while they sleep. Amazon humor.

    Other than that, I like the picture of her new crew.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •