Super Hero Purpose

[Huntsman Spider]

Religion? I’m not talking existential content here. It’s purely being able to see a bigger picture

I think what the poster is trying to say, though far be it from me to speak for said poster, is that not everything has to be part of a bigger picture. Sometimes, things can just stand on their own. Of course, we're all connected in one form or another, however directly or indirectly, so . . .

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Even though this is a Marvel thread, Grant Morrison has arguably articulated the appeal of superheroes better than anyone else. They are like gods in the sense that they represent an eternal idea believed by humans, but unlike gods we don't literally believe in them.

If I had to apply Morrison's theory to some Marvel heroes, I do think some of them have a clear 'purpose':

Spider-Man represents empowerment and is the idea that you are strong no matter how weak you feel, or that you can make a difference how insignificant you feel.

Captain America represents freedom/opportunity and is the idea that you can go from nothing to something.

The Black Panther represents strength and the idea that you can withstand anything the world throws at you.

Iron Man represents ingenuity and the idea there are no limits to how much human creativity can shine (you know, like armor *ba sum tss!*).

The Fantastic Four reflect our thirst for discovery and need for family-esque bonds.

The X-Men reflect our tolerance and open-mindedness.

I could go on, and maybe not everyone agrees with all of the above, but the point is they all clearly push an emotional button for people the way gods have traditionally done, and are also eternal in the sense that they don't age.

[jackolover]

I think what the poster is trying to say, though far be it from me to speak for said poster, is that not everything has to be part of a bigger picture. Sometimes, things can just stand on their own. Of course, we're all connected in one form or another, however directly or indirectly, so . . .

I suppose I’m just looking at the intellectual evidence on this thread question. My opinion on the religiosity of Marvel, I think I have already made my views known about that.

[jackolover]

Even though this is a Marvel thread, Grant Morrison has arguably articulated the appeal of superheroes better than anyone else. They are like gods in the sense that they represent an eternal idea believed by humans, but unlike gods we don't literally believe in them.

If I had to apply Morrison's theory to some Marvel heroes, I do think some of them have a clear 'purpose':

Spider-Man represents empowerment and is the idea that you are strong no matter how weak you feel, or that you can make a difference how insignificant you feel.

Captain America represents freedom/opportunity and is the idea that you can go from nothing to something.

The Black Panther represents strength and the idea that you can withstand anything the world throws at you.

Iron Man represents ingenuity and the idea there are no limits to how much human creativity can shine (you know, like armor *ba sum tss!*).

The Fantastic Four reflect our thirst for discovery and need for family-esque bonds.

The X-Men reflect our tolerance and open-mindedness.

I could go on, and maybe not everyone agrees with all of the above, but the point is they all clearly push an emotional button for people the way gods have traditionally done, and are also eternal in the sense that they don't age.

Nicely said Kid. I like the way you summarised some of the characters so succinctly.

[Huntsman Spider]

I suppose I’m just looking at the intellectual evidence on this thread question. My opinion on the religiosity of Marvel, I think I have already made my views known about that.

Fair enough.

Even though this is a Marvel thread, Grant Morrison has arguably articulated the appeal of superheroes better than anyone else. They are like gods in the sense that they represent an eternal idea believed by humans, but unlike gods we don't literally believe in them.

If I had to apply Morrison's theory to some Marvel heroes, I do think some of them have a clear 'purpose':

Spider-Man represents empowerment and is the idea that you are strong no matter how weak you feel, or that you can make a difference how insignificant you feel.

Captain America represents freedom/opportunity and is the idea that you can go from nothing to something.

The Black Panther represents strength and the idea that you can withstand anything the world throws at you.

Iron Man represents ingenuity and the idea there are no limits to how much human creativity can shine (you know, like armor *ba sum tss!*).

The Fantastic Four reflect our thirst for discovery and need for family-esque bonds.

The X-Men reflect our tolerance and open-mindedness.

I could go on, and maybe not everyone agrees with all of the above, but the point is they all clearly push an emotional button for people the way gods have traditionally done, and are also eternal in the sense that they don't age.

Nicely said Kid. I like the way you summarised some of the characters so succinctly.

Agreed.

[DrNewGod]

I think what the poster is trying to say, though far be it from me to speak for said poster, is that not everything has to be part of a bigger picture. Sometimes, things can just stand on their own. Of course, we're all connected in one form or another, however directly or indirectly, so . . .

Close enough. I don't mind these kind of concepts in out of continuity stories, although I'm not wild about them, but dislike them in ongoings. IMO, they narrow the universe (ironic given the scope of the concept discussed in this thread). It makes the environment about the superheroes rather than presenting the environment as something which the characters inhabit, but that's both a personal preference, and probably off the OP's focal point.

[jackolover]

Close enough. I don't mind these kind of concepts in out of continuity stories, although I'm not wild about them, but dislike them in ongoings. IMO, they narrow the universe (ironic given the scope of the concept discussed in this thread). It makes the environment about the superheroes rather than presenting the environment as something which the characters inhabit, but that's both a personal preference, and probably off the OP's focal point.

I’m not following what you mean, “it makes the environment about the superheroes rather than presenting the environment as something which the characters inhabit”?

[PCN24454]

I’m not following what you mean, “it makes the environment about the superheroes rather than presenting the environment as something which the characters inhabit”?

I think they're trying to say that the world feels stagnant because it only focuses on the heroes. Take the Avengers Assemble cartoon. It mostly focuses on the Avengers fights against the bad guys, but the world mostly feels empty. The Avengers don't really leave the Tower other than to work. It'd be easy to forget that Tony's name isn't Iron Man.

Compare that to Spider-Man TAS and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoons. The characters and plot don't just stop because Peter isn't involved. The side characters have their own development that they go through and while Peter is an important part of that, he's still only just a part.

[your_name_here]

Even though this is a Marvel thread, Grant Morrison has arguably articulated the appeal of superheroes better than anyone else. They are like gods in the sense that they represent an eternal idea believed by humans, but unlike gods we don't literally believe in them.

If I had to apply Morrison's theory to some Marvel heroes, I do think some of them have a clear 'purpose':

Spider-Man represents empowerment and is the idea that you are strong no matter how weak you feel, or that you can make a difference how insignificant you feel.

Captain America represents freedom/opportunity and is the idea that you can go from nothing to something.

The Black Panther represents strength and the idea that you can withstand anything the world throws at you.

Iron Man represents ingenuity and the idea there are no limits to how much human creativity can shine (you know, like armor *ba sum tss!*).

The Fantastic Four reflect our thirst for discovery and need for family-esque bonds.

The X-Men reflect our tolerance and open-mindedness.

I could go on, and maybe not everyone agrees with all of the above, but the point is they all clearly push an emotional button for people the way gods have traditionally done, and are also eternal in the sense that they don't age.

That is probably the best way to put it. Couldn’t put it better myself.

[DrNewGod]

I’m not following what you mean, “it makes the environment about the superheroes rather than presenting the environment as something which the characters inhabit”?

I think they're trying to say that the world feels stagnant because it only focuses on the heroes. Take the Avengers Assemble cartoon. It mostly focuses on the Avengers fights against the bad guys, but the world mostly feels empty. The Avengers don't really leave the Tower other than to work. It'd be easy to forget that Tony's name isn't Iron Man.

Compare that to Spider-Man TAS and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoons. The characters and plot don't just stop because Peter isn't involved. The side characters have their own development that they go through and while Peter is an important part of that, he's still only just a part.

PCN24454 interpreted me accurately.

[jackolover]

I think they're trying to say that the world feels stagnant because it only focuses on the heroes. Take the Avengers Assemble cartoon. It mostly focuses on the Avengers fights against the bad guys, but the world mostly feels empty. The Avengers don't really leave the Tower other than to work. It'd be easy to forget that Tony's name isn't Iron Man.

Compare that to Spider-Man TAS and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoons. The characters and plot don't just stop because Peter isn't involved. The side characters have their own development that they go through and while Peter is an important part of that, he's still only just a part.

So what you’re saying is there’s not enough support character moments in superhero comics?

[PCN24454]

So what you’re saying is there’s not enough support character moments in superhero comics?

It's mostly that sometimes, the heroes and other characters can feel like isolated. Even if they had friends and families before they became superheroes, they automatically lose those afterwards.

Writers try to revitalize cast members by giving them super roles, but not only does that imply that there's something wrong with being "normal", but it reinforces the isolation that certain characters have to the outside world.

It's like how lots of people like to interpret the Joker as Batman's best friend. Often times, it feels like Rogues are the only people that Batman "looks forward to seeing" despite having the Batfamily. Everything about his life exists to supplement Batman.

The Avengers can especially feel this way based on how many superheroes seemingly move into the Avengers HQ. It's as though being a superhero is their only purpose.

From a meta standpoint, it makes sense, but it does little to make the world feel alive.

[jackolover]

It's mostly that sometimes, the heroes and other characters can feel like isolated. Even if they had friends and families before they became superheroes, they automatically lose those afterwards.

Writers try to revitalize cast members by giving them super roles, but not only does that imply that there's something wrong with being "normal", but it reinforces the isolation that certain characters have to the outside world.

It's like how lots of people like to interpret the Joker as Batman's best friend. Often times, it feels like Rogues are the only people that Batman "looks forward to seeing" despite having the Batfamily. Everything about his life exists to supplement Batman.

The Avengers can especially feel this way based on how many superheroes seemingly move into the Avengers HQ. It's as though being a superhero is their only purpose.

From a meta standpoint, it makes sense, but it does little to make the world feel alive.

I’ve noticed the narrative of superhero comics sticks to the super side of its focus. The superhero can’t break away from the necessarily urgent focus he or she has regarding the villains who are always just around the corner to ambush them, so they are continually on guard. I think the heroes do deliberately push away normal life under those circumstances, and as the narrative unfolds, their only concern is what’s in front of them, and it’s the bad guys only. I think that would be the natural course a hero would take, and have to abandoned the normal focus of life.

It’s like wrestlers and boxers keep to this synthetic world where they have to keep training, have to keep in-character, and rarely allow themselves to walk among the people. If you ask them “Why don’t you relate to normal folk”? They would tell you they are in their bubble; the environment that they have to keep involved in, to be the wrestler, the boxer for the next fight. Their next opponent dictates what they have to anticipate, and be ready for.

It’s sad, I know, but by prescription superhero purpose tends to automatically isolate them from their normal associates and family, or risk them being drawn into the drama, which is far too dangerous for normals. This predicates the isolationism of superheroes. Peter Parker wanting to have it all with a wife and Aunt he lives with, and Spiderwoman Jessica Drew having a baby, is like what the Wasp said to Wanda, “ Super heroes shouldn’t have children, and you thought you could have two”. Wanda lamented she couldn’t have the normal life and caused House of M over this. Of course she was crazy, but do you call motherhood crazy having that expectation?

Of cause Wanda now has two sons, one of which is a reality warped like Wanda, so is Wiccan going to be more powerful than Wanda and able to take House of M even further one day? Won’t that be a surprise for all those unhappy with the Kings consort in Kree/Skrull politics.

[Huntsman Spider]

I’ve noticed the narrative of superhero comics sticks to the super side of its focus. The superhero can’t break away from the necessarily urgent focus he or she has regarding the villains who are always just around the corner to ambush them, so they are continually on guard. I think the heroes do deliberately push away normal life under those circumstances, and as the narrative unfolds, their only concern is what’s in front of them, and it’s the bad guys only. I think that would be the natural course a hero would take, and have to abandoned the normal focus of life.

It’s like wrestlers and boxers keep to this synthetic world where they have to keep training, have to keep in-character, and rarely allow themselves to walk among the people. If you ask them “Why don’t you relate to normal folk”? They would tell you they are in their bubble; the environment that they have to keep involved in, to be the wrestler, the boxer for the next fight. Their next opponent dictates what they have to anticipate, and be ready for.

It’s sad, I know, but by prescription superhero purpose tends to automatically isolate them from their normal associates and family, or risk them being drawn into the drama, which is far too dangerous for normals. This predicates the isolationism of superheroes. Peter Parker wanting to have it all with a wife and Aunt he lives with, and Spiderwoman Jessica Drew having a baby, is like what the Wasp said to Wanda, “ Super heroes shouldn’t have children, and you thought you could have two”. Wanda lamented she couldn’t have the normal life and caused House of M over this. Of course she was crazy, but do you call motherhood crazy having that expectation?

Of cause Wanda now has two sons, one of which is a reality warped like Wanda, so is Wiccan going to be more powerful than Wanda and able to take House of M even further one day? Won’t that be a surprise for all those unhappy with the Kings consort in Kree/Skrull politics.

And in that same vein, let's not forget that the Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman (later Arachne, now the second Madame Web) was already a mother before becoming a superhero, so that brings up the issue of preexisting familial or romantic ties that the superhero can't necessarily just sever or ignore for the "good" of the non-superpowered individuals so connected to the superhero. Hell, I've said and thought for a long while now that a lot of the problem with modern superheroes is how isolated they are from "normal people," which does create a sense of mutual alienation that manifests in superheroes seemingly not really caring or understanding what regular people go through when they get caught up in superpowered battles, and those same regular people distrusting superheroes because they seem not to care all that much about what happens to them when they're not being protected or rescued from supervillains --- which at its worst extreme leads to things like masses of otherwise ordinary people going "hail HYDRA" because they feel the superheroes have so utterly and thoroughly failed them.

[jackolover]

And in that same vein, let's not forget that the Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman (later Arachne, now the second Madame Web) was already a mother before becoming a superhero, so that brings up the issue of preexisting familial or romantic ties that the superhero can't necessarily just sever or ignore for the "good" of the non-superpowered individuals so connected to the superhero. Hell, I've said and thought for a long while now that a lot of the problem with modern superheroes is how isolated they are from "normal people," which does create a sense of mutual alienation that manifests in superheroes seemingly not really caring or understanding what regular people go through when they get caught up in superpowered battles, and those same regular people distrusting superheroes because they seem not to care all that much about what happens to them when they're not being protected or rescued from supervillains --- which at its worst extreme leads to things like masses of otherwise ordinary people going "hail HYDRA" because they feel the superheroes have so utterly and thoroughly failed them.

Okay, you bring up something that progresses into my next instalment of Super Hero Purpose. I think we have to acknowledge the isolation of superheroes is a little more complicated than just accepting them into Earth 616. Here goes.

What followed (after 1961 appearance of transferred special ability people to Prime Earth) was an exuberant outpouring of exultation at having super powers in a depressed world of drudgery and world war (amidst the Atlas Monster Age). This was the start of their training, the superheroes needed, to get them cooperating and battle hardened in use of their powers, to prepare for the purpose they were always placed here for. These were not Earth 616 citizens. These were alternated Earth “aliens”, acclimatised to their new world, to be its protector, and with no memory of their birth planets anymore.

The actual purpose of this hard wrenching from their home planets is jarring in concept, because the Omega saw it necessary that Prime Earth, 616, had to be protected from Mad Celestial destruction for the sake of all the other Alternate Reality worlds, like the origin worlds of the superheroes. And though Secret Wars 2015 destroyed their Multiversal home origin worlds, the Reed Richards (of another reality, we have to remember), restored all the Multiverse (and his own Reality Earth) for them to live again, in the All New All Different (ANAD) Marvel.

So we have a storyline yet to be explored where all these proto-superheroes go back to their home reality planets to live out their lives in those realities, splitting the Fantastic Four up so they can return, (even Sue and Johnny, who are not brother and sister at all, but from different Alternate realities). So you can see the discussion on isolation in the superheroes case is far wider than just a sociological sense. It’s because they don’t come from Prime Earth.