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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Default Super Hero Purpose

    Two things Bendis did without acknowledgement.

    1. He had represented Super Villains joining in with Super heroes to save Earth in Secret Invasion.

    2. He represented the purpose of the Super Heroes transplanted her in the 616 Earth in 1961, defeating the Death Celestial in Civil War II, the very purpose the Omega made them for.

    I know itís a silly proposition that there was a reason all Super heroes suddenly appeared around 1961 and continue to do so. Itís one I have been seeking for a long time. It came to me one day, in my findings, that there was one already in concept. Back in 2011, an obscure story called Defenders volume 4 by Matt Fraction, proposed an equally obscure group, called the Omega, (youíll have to look them up yourself), transported all Super heroes to Earth 616 deliberately, to defend against the Death Celestials - the Aspirants. (Also for you to explore). This honourable purpose never saw its conclusion until Civil War II #1, when Bendis finally achieved what Super Humans were brought here for.

    But that is neither here nor there. If you think superhumans were now defunct after CWII, they are not. For all the history since 1961 to 2021, superheroes have lived by a code of honor as stipulated by the Golden Age Heroes, the Human Torch, Submariner, Captain America, and Bucky. It is my contention this is the superheroes grander purpose than just to hang around for years upon years twiddling their thumbs. The superheroes maintained the society they were born into keeping the moral and ethical standards alive in the face of all threats, honing their skills by risking life and limb.

    My further question is, after actually achieving what they were collected for in 1961, how do they go forward together post 2016 (CWII)? I am happy for them to continue their secondary purpose in the 616 Earth, to do what they have always done - maintain the state from all threats as they come. Iím happy to see that an answer exists as to the reason superheroes came to be from 1961, in a literary and continuity sense, but also, that a purpose subsidiary to the primary purpose, also takes precedence after CWII, going forward today. I think itís refreshing to see that humanity got through its most engaging threat of the Death Celestials, and now not have that as an impetus of the superheroes existence.

  2. #2
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Kind of reminds me of how in the Earth X timeline, superhumans were ultimately posited as a defense mechanism of sorts for the infant Celestial yet to be born from Earth (which would've resulted in Earth's destruction, as a Celestial's birth ends up wiping out the planet it was born from, and Galactus eating planets was some kind of safety mechanism against that, if I recall correctly).
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I know itís a silly proposition that there was a reason all Super heroes suddenly appeared around 1961 and continue to do so. Itís one I have been seeking for a long time. It came to me one day, in my findings, that there was one already in concept
    I think that the super-heroes came from the Second World War like Superman as a way to entertain people from a bleak present and give them hope in victory.

    The editors promoted heroes with a strong sense of responsability and marvelous powers. The readers wanted to see themselves like that, admired and useful to the society.

    I envy people who believed in a better world, a world of progress after the Second World WarÖ The challenges we face today are not the kind we can fight with an extra amount of power. Reading stories about super-heroes feel more like escapism than a metaphor of what we can do concretely. A nostalgia about simple solutionsÖ that still can be entertaining.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I don't think there needs to be a reason for superheroes in Marvel starting in the '60s anymore than I need there to be a reason as to why rock music took off in the UK in the '60s. Or why silent comedy became all the rage in the 1920s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I think that the super-heroes came from the Second World War like Superman as a way to entertain people from a bleak present and give them hope in victory.
    Except Superman debuted in 1938 two years before the outbreak of war.

    Captain America was created as an explicit anti-Nazi and anti-fascist character but he was an exception.

    Most superheroes were created for the most arcane and mysterious dark art of all...making money. World War II and its occurence was incidental and coincidental to all of that.

    The editors promoted heroes with a strong sense of responsability and marvelous powers. The readers wanted to see themselves like that, admired and useful to the society.
    Let's not overthink stuff. The original comics were intended as children's entertainment and most of the stories in the early years didn't have a real message that you think.

    I envy people who believed in a better world, a world of progress after the Second World War…
    Superhero comics actually declined sharply in popularity after World War II from the 1940s to the mid-to-late 1950s. And during World War 2, the biggest superhero in America in terms of popularity and sales was...Fawcett's Captain Marvel, the #1 favorite of US Soldiers in service at Europe.

    Reading stories about super-heroes feel more like escapism than a metaphor of what we can do concretely. A nostalgia about simple solutions… that still can be entertaining.
    Remember comics don't actually sell or make as much money as they once did. And back when comics had highest sales and highest readership, i.e. the 1950s, superheroes were not by any means the dominant genre. Remember Uncle Scrooge by Carl Barks had higher sales than Superman did in the '50s.

    There is no reason to think there's some larger historical reason or purpose for the popularity of superheroes, it wasn't inevitable that the genre would dominate as they do now, nor is it likely to be permanent.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Ö There is no reason to think there's some larger historical reason or purpose for the popularity of superheroes, it wasn't inevitable that the genre would dominate as they do now, nor is it likely to be permanent.
    Interesting, Revolutionary_JackÖ Still, the genre has a remarkable longevity in US with the main publishers DC and Marvel. It has created a sort ofÖ mythology with fewer and fewer new characters.

    There are some super-heroes outside the US but very few. And a lot of them are just parodies. It canít be coincidental.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Interesting, Revolutionary_Jack… Still, the genre has a remarkable longevity in US with the main publishers DC and Marvel. It has created a sort of… mythology with fewer and fewer new characters.

    There are some super-heroes outside the US but very few. And a lot of them are just parodies. It can’t be coincidental.
    Superheroes do have a unique American quality to it in the way that the archetype of the Western and Cowboy is uniquely American.

    So yeah, you can certainly say these kinds of stories do reflect aspects of US Culture and Society, in the way blues and rock music, hip-hop and rap are American cultural products and exports.

    So you can work with that, which is a lot.

  7. #7
    Boisterously Confused
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    Giving superheroes a shared purpose makes for a good story, but the problem is, those stories tend to limited and finite. It's why I prefer no central source to Marvel's superbeings stories (or DC's for that matter).

    Now don't get me wrong, I love me some connections here and there. In my head-canon, for example, the secret ingredient in Captain America's serum was derived from Terrigen, and most superhumans and all mutants have an Inhuman somewhere up their family tree. That's different from linking their stories.

    If Luke Cage has an existential purpose to his existence, it should be independent of Iron Fist's.

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Giving superheroes a shared purpose makes for a good story, but the problem is, those stories tend to limited and finite. It's why I prefer no central source to Marvel's superbeings stories (or DC's for that matter).

    Now don't get me wrong, I love me some connections here and there. In my head-canon, for example, the secret ingredient in Captain America's serum was derived from Terrigen, and most superhumans and all mutants have an Inhuman somewhere up their family tree. That's different from linking their stories.

    If Luke Cage has an existential purpose to his existence, it should be independent of Iron Fist's.
    To be honest, I think the idea that superheroes are all random and unconnected to each other makes for better reading and is closer to stuff in life than all of them being stuff that came from a single source and single happenstance.

    In Ultimate Marvel, they tried to make everything connected to SHIELD and Nick Fury...what that resulted in over time is that everything becomes a SHIELD story or a Nick Fury story. There's not much to set stuff apart or make things stand well.

  9. #9
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Giving superheroes a shared purpose makes for a good story, but the problem is, those stories tend to limited and finite. It's why I prefer no central source to Marvel's superbeings stories (or DC's for that matter).

    Now don't get me wrong, I love me some connections here and there. In my head-canon, for example, the secret ingredient in Captain America's serum was derived from Terrigen, and most superhumans and all mutants have an Inhuman somewhere up their family tree. That's different from linking their stories.

    If Luke Cage has an existential purpose to his existence, it should be independent of Iron Fist's.
    Technically, Luke Cage is a byproduct of clandestine attempts to recreate and improve on the Super-Soldier Serum, which may have been backed by or an offshoot of Weapon Plus, so there's that for a connection to the greater Marvel Universe that's nonetheless independent of Iron Fist, whose roots lie in a vastly different corner of the MU mythos.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I think that the super-heroes came from the Second World War like Superman as a way to entertain people from a bleak present and give them hope in victory.

    The editors promoted heroes with a strong sense of responsability and marvelous powers. The readers wanted to see themselves like that, admired and useful to the society.

    I envy people who believed in a better world, a world of progress after the Second World War… The challenges we face today are not the kind we can fight with an extra amount of power. Reading stories about super-heroes feel more like escapism than a metaphor of what we can do concretely. A nostalgia about simple solutions… that still can be entertaining.
    The world after WWII is a heavy challenge. I have thought about the other purpose of superheroes, besides the one I mentioned in my post, and do think your ideas of the entertainment and sense of responsibility in particular is what they bring to readership, and that this will carry the medium forward because “readers wanted to see themselves like this”. I think if anything, superhero comicbooks inspire in us something to keep the society we have in tact, and that’s what I see the superhero’s doing in the Marvel Universe by there community and cooperation. Good point.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Giving superheroes a shared purpose makes for a good story, but the problem is, those stories tend to limited and finite. It's why I prefer no central source to Marvel's superbeings stories (or DC's for that matter).

    Now don't get me wrong, I love me some connections here and there. In my head-canon, for example, the secret ingredient in Captain America's serum was derived from Terrigen, and most superhumans and all mutants have an Inhuman somewhere up their family tree. That's different from linking their stories.

    If Luke Cage has an existential purpose to his existence, it should be independent of Iron Fist's.
    There is a problem when the only purpose of superheroes is connected to a single source, but I feel the Omega purpose was not the whole story of superheroes. I think that story still has to see the light, and considering Ulysses is an Omega, now, I have to think, he was only a part of the forward thinking of the Omega. You can’t possibly have superhumans only just be the defender against a Death Celestial. The connective tissue just to get characters from one alternative reality (AR) to Prime Earth boggles the mind. Do we have replacement characters transferred to those AR’s? And the Omega knew the superheroes would defeat the Death celestial because that’s why they sent Ulysses to warn them. But the End Game isn’t the getting rid of the Death Celestial. It’s the journey. I think the journey is what the Omegas were also aiming at, (and now they welcome Ulysses into their group).

    I’m more focused on what the Omega did by compacting so many special humans together in the one place. Now that you have them here on Prime Earth, with the experience of ridding a Death Celestial, the superheroes’ activities then expand as the Prime defender of the Universe, or more. I think this is what Marvel can do from here on in. The Omega have set this Team up and it works fantastically.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Technically, Luke Cage is a byproduct of clandestine attempts to recreate and improve on the Super-Soldier Serum, which may have been backed by or an offshoot of Weapon Plus, so there's that for a connection to the greater Marvel Universe that's nonetheless independent of Iron Fist, whose roots lie in a vastly different corner of the MU mythos.
    Yeah, Iron Fist. One of the students of an alternative universe Kun Lun was guarding the Omega groups Concordance engines making superhumans, so it’s a coincidence Luke Cage hangs around with a potential Omega in Iron Fist. I never thought down this track before. Hmmm.

  13. #13
    Boisterously Confused
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    So much of this feels to me like fans needing a deeper, transcendental purpose to their superheroes than a story of people with an ability to make an impact trying to do the right thing.

    Our superheroes need not be part of a divine plan. If we feel religion has failed us, comics are probably not the place to seek its successor.

  14. #14
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Yeah, Iron Fist. One of the students of an alternative universe Kun Lun was guarding the Omega groups Concordance engines making superhumans, so it’s a coincidence Luke Cage hangs around with a potential Omega in Iron Fist. I never thought down this track before. Hmmm.
    Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    So much of this feels to me like fans needing a deeper, transcendental purpose to their superheroes than a story of people with an ability to make an impact trying to do the right thing.

    Our superheroes need not be part of a divine plan. If we feel religion has failed us, comics are probably not the place to seek its successor.
    Considering both religion and the superhero genre have been commodified for the sake of corrupt entities on the world stage lulling believers into a false sense of security or even higher purpose chiefly to exploit them for personal profit . . . you raise an interesting point there.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    So much of this feels to me like fans needing a deeper, transcendental purpose to their superheroes than a story of people with an ability to make an impact trying to do the right thing.

    Our superheroes need not be part of a divine plan. If we feel religion has failed us, comics are probably not the place to seek its successor.
    Religion? I’m not talking existential content here. It’s purely being able to see a bigger picture

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