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  1. #346
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    I’m hoping after this story that’s currently going on, that Betsy has the same confidence that she used to have. She’s been wishy washy for most of Excalibur in IMO. The issues with Cullen where Rictor had to be the one warning her and she’s like just go to bed. Uh.. the Disassembled era was a mess, but Betsy did get some decent spotlight and wasn’t cardboard. I know why Rachel was there when she “returned”, but having Storm there would have been a nice touch. One of the things lacking in Excalibur is the interaction of people that have been friends for awhile. Rogue’s concern and drive about finding Betsy was believable, but it was weird at the same time. Jubilee could have played a better part in the arc. Betsy was the one that pulled her out of the trap in the mall. Jubilee was there for her Hand transformation and adventures after. She was even there when Betsy remade a new body for herself in Hunt for Wolverine. As much as Jubilee has been annoying me in Excalibur, I think she may have been better as the concerned party instead of Rogue.

    This arc needs to clear up and put to rest the feelings of guilt and whatever with Kwannon. Define her powers as CB now that the amulet is gone. Does she even have any anymore besides her mutant abilities? Like sit down and start defining where these characters are going and each stepping up to the plate. Also it would be nice to see Gambit stop being useless. I miss the Gambit that was smooth..

  2. #347
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    I can feel the same way. And something even worse that Captain Britain isn't as powerful as Captain Marvel but is more bland than her in the whole Excalibur 15+issues of story.(But I would put it there is improvement over the latest 1 to 2 issues)
    They've never had an issue showcasing how powerful Brian is as Captain Britain, but the moment a woman comes into the role, suddenly the powers are downplayed. Betsy was one of the most powerful mutants prior to this but I would never be able to tell as a new fan if I was reading Excalibur. In Carol's case, Marvel was grooming her for the role of their leading lady so they had to make her powerful (although I heard that Hickman downplayed her abilities in his Avengers run and wrote her as weak and inept, much like Betsy now), but it seems with Betsy there was no real decision behind this besides wanting to keep their classic 90s Psylocke around a Captain Britain Betsy wouldn't stand in the way like a Disassembled Betsy with the purple costume and psychic butterfly.

    But that's promising to hear that the latest issues have been better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyknight View Post
    I agree, especially with the part in bold. For all the hype surrounding her becoming Captain Britain, she is still coming across like wallpaper. It’s like Marvel decided they don’t have to put any real effort behind the character anymore, just give her an important sounding title, a new costume, plaster her image all over a ton of covers and give her a really long biography in that Marvel playbook and people won’t notice just how dull and insignificant she is now.
    When Carol became Captain Marvel, they treated her like an A-Lister and she was popping up everywhere. Betsy as the new Captain Britain has barely gotten any promotion in comparison and the main X-Books seem to ignore her completely. As Captain Britain, Betsy should now have greater links with the rest of the Marvel Universe outside of the X-Men, but yet we can't even get some basic respect for her in her home franchise. When we first got this announcement, I really thought Betsy would be pushed as an A-Lister but little did I know.

  3. #348
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    Actually Betsy and Kwannon have set a good example here:

    For the 15 issues of Excalibur, there is almost no character development for Betsy and we actually found her unfamiliar like a new character and lost interest on her. She should be one of the focus of the book but feels more like background girl.

    For only the first 5 issue of Hellions, Kwannon has already become her own character and a great one. A ninja mutant that is much more bad ass than Betsy(compare to Asian Betsy) was and you can already tell it is Kwannon in the Asian body but not Betsy.

    I actually don't care what gender the writer is as long as he or she or anything that can write. Also, I don't want to see one of my favorite Marvel character become the expense of the activism.
    The fact that her character is so murky and ambiguous and supporting characters feel more fleshed out and like the real leads is really troubling.

    They are willing to invest so much in Kwannon versus Betsy for obvious reasons because casual fans recognize Kwannon more, or even if they don't recognize her, they find her more visually interesting (for obvious reasons) that fully covered-up and armored Betsy. I know so many casual X-Fans online who don't even know Psylocke has become Captain Britain or gone back to her British body so they think Kwannon is her and Marvel is catering to those fans.

    I think I had good will towards Betsy as Captain Britain with a new female writer because Marvel did that with Carol as Captain Marvel and she became an A-Lister. That clearly didn't transpire here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knightmare View Post
    Who said Betsy should have become Captain Britain? Was is Davis/Claremont?

    Captain Britain should never lead an X-Team, regardless of who has the title. That's not what being Captain Britain is about. It's a very specific set of duties that has nothing to do with mutadom.



    That was explained to the current Excalibur run. Tini's explanation is that because she is a mutant, she'll never be excepted. Saturnyne explains that she's seen it on multiple Earths across the multiverse and it also ends in disaster. Eventually Betsy will have to make a choice between mutants/Krakoa or Britain/Otherworld and it would seem that she chooses mutants.
    When Claremont was writing Betsy in the Outback days, he referenced the resentment she felt towards the fact that she was never chosen as Captain Britain but her brother was. I think specifically in Acts of Vengeance, which is where she got her Asian body. She has all those flashbacks of her life, including how rough and tumble she was as a little girl compared to Brian, playing with swords and enjoying fast motorcycle rides, and she wonders why she was skipped over. Then she reflects on how her one time as Captain Britain, the brutal defeat she received at the hands of Slaymaster.

    Excalibur is considered an X-Team though. And part of the reason that Captain Britain's role hasn't had much to do with mutantkind is because Captain Britain wasn't a mutant. That's a role that could be reframed now with Betsy.

    Oh I see, I'm glad that was addressed, although I feel like we've seen plenty of universes before where Betsy was Captain Britain or involved in the Captain Britain corps.

  4. #349
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    My point about the publicity stunt only meant that Marvel hadn't seemed to put much if any thought to what would happen to Betsy or what she'd do after getting her new body, then now they have to figure it out in a hurry and that rushed job is showing in the work, unfortunately for Betsy...Betsy isn't the lead in Excalibur and most of the characters are often said to be written out a character...there's no problem with character building but it does have to actually go somewhere...

  5. #350
    Extraordinary Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Betsy is the lead of Excalibur. Literally everyone complains that it's a Betsy and her friends title.

  6. #351
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    I've seen many claim the opposite, that she's a spectator in a book that she's supposed to be the leader in...

  7. #352
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    My point about the publicity stunt only meant that Marvel hadn't seemed to put much if any thought to what would happen to Betsy or what she'd do after getting her new body, then now they have to figure it out in a hurry and that rushed job is showing in the work, unfortunately for Betsy...Betsy isn't the lead in Excalibur and most of the characters are often said to be written out a character...there's no problem with character building but it does have to actually go somewhere...
    LOL...how is Betsy not the lead of Excalibur?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I've seen many claim the opposite, that she's a spectator in a book that she's supposed to be the leader in...
    But what do you think? Dont claim other's opinions. Whats yours?

  8. #353
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    Come to think of it, Betsy seems always to be the 'unwanted' or 'loser' in most competition:

    In Excalibur, Brian is chosen to be Captain Britain but not Betsy.

    In X-Men, Jean is best student and Omega telepathy but not Betsy.

    In Krakoa, Kwannon is clearly the favorite of current Marvel out of the two Psylocke but not Betsy.

    In Otherworld, Saturnyne still choose Brian as Captain Britain but not Betsy and she can only get the role by 'stealing' the Starlight sword.

    She is such a stepping stone in Marvel Comics and I guess it will keep going on...

    (I actually think the main focus in Excalibur after Apocalypse left is Rogue but not Betsy.)
    At least Remender in UXF had AoA Jean help Betsy unlock her full potential as an omega-level mutant with telepathic powers that rival the Phoenix. Which is consistent with how Betsy is the only other telepath besides Jean that was able to bypass Juggernaut's helmet, as well as the factor that it was these two women who swapped powers during the Revolution period. It doesn't surprise me though that Hickman doesn't care for Betsy so he doesn't even bother keeping up her status as an omega-level mutant. Part of that is probably also the fault of the 90s since after Claremont left, Betsy was treated as a weak psi whose abilities didn't go much beyond her psychic knife, even though in the 80s, she was considered as competent and powerful as Jean and Xavier. Then the 2000s came and the fake blonde took that role as the amoral telepath, with fans going crazy over her, failing to realize the original and far superior character was British Betsy who did not need to affect a fake accent and was a natural blonde.

    So there is definitely a pattern, both in-universe and by real world terms, that others keep getting picked over Betsy or stealing parts of her identity and role in the X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by MentalManipulator View Post
    I agree with you. 100%. But for the future I don't want her to be CB forever since the role takes aways from her being part of another team other then Excalibur. Patriotic heroes really make me uncomfortable and seems always off putting and silly IMO.
    I was in favor of the CB role because I thought it would elevate her to an A-Lister like Captain America and Captain Marvel but now that she's been treated like this, I wish she would go back. Although I'm afraid they wouldn't even give her the Psylocke codename now. i wonder if they'd go the route of making her Bloody Bess like Claremont wanted instead.

    I heard that Marvel is not interested in the Captain America/Britain franchises much because they're a hard sell internationally. Although that didn't seem to stop Captain America's success in the MCU with other countries.

  9. #354
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Betsy is the lead of Excalibur. Literally everyone complains that it's a Betsy and her friends title.
    I've heard most Betsy fans complain the opposite, that she's supposed to be the lead but she doesn't come across like it at all. Just last page and I'm sure most other pages of this thread, are comments that Apocalypse felt like the lead and now Rogue does.

  10. #355
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalManipulator View Post
    I agree with you. 100%. But for the future I don't want her to be CB forever since the role takes aways from her being part of another team other then Excalibur. Patriotic heroes really make me uncomfortable and seems always off putting and silly IMO.
    Oh yeah I totally agree with that. CB forever isn't the goal but I'd like her to carve out the corner so when she switches she'll have more legs to stand on. I think if she stays as CB for about the amount of time Jane spent as Thor we'll be in a good spot. I'm still upset Jamie got the Monarch codename because that feels like the perfect next step.

    Quote Originally Posted by MentalManipulator View Post
    Evertytime Tini talks about her ideas and the characters in the books it feels right, deep and makes sense...but...the thing is....when reading the book it feels, since the beginning, a little off, not only Betsy but in general.
    So it's complicated when your work of art needs to come with explanations because the audience does not get it.
    Tini's got some stroytelling issues for sure and the art unfortunately doesn't help. I chalk it up to her being rather new to comics in general but she's been finding a good foot (at least in regards to Betsy) since about issue 12. I think about issue 13 a lot and how well received that story was as a whole and still think a stronger artist would help alleviate some issues with this title.

    Tini's got the right ideas she just needs to not give the audience so much credit that we'll always know what she's thinking lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    I don't think Betsy changing back was a publicity stunt. It got no publicity. A few articles but that's it. It was put into a mini that focused on the Retun of Wolverine. Which was drawn out and took forever. It was one issue. And then it was dropped. No writer brought it up. Until maybe Leah Willaims in Age of X-Man. If they want publicity they would have made it a major arc in a A-List X-Title like: X-Men or Uncanny X-Men.

    I am one of the ones that complains about Tini Howards writing a lot. It's just not for me. But I will say that when others who do like it point out things I may have missed I tend to give it an ounce more of appreciation. Also one thing I've always said is that I like how Tini talks about her approach to Betsy but it's just the execution or how it's written down in the issue that I have major problems with. There's much to be desired on my end. There are people that say what are you talking about its all there in the story. But no I want more of HER thought bubbles I want more of HER saying things. And people will say she is BUT I want MORE.

    Another thing we forget is that this is the first time we've had a female perspective writing Betsy for more than 4 issues. Of course we won't agree with everything. Like the insecurities she has now. BUT this is a perspective that I do not think the male writers ever even thought about. So thats something to appreciate about Leah Williams and Tini Howard. It's a woman's take and they see things differently than there male counterparts.

    I'm hoping this arc has her get more focused in telling Betsy's story. Like ALL the juicy bits are here. If you really think about it. We've been waiting for some REAL insight and introspection since before Extermination. And that was like what 2018.

    I would like Rogue and Gambit to go to another title. Captain Britain to join the new X-Men team. Editorial promised that they would elevate her. And what better way then to put her on a title written by Hickman part of the new X-Men squad. WHICH CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG. Cyclops states will be the heroes of Krakoa. And what does Betsy's story beat seem to be currently. That she is adapting to a more heroic status and more responsibilities.

    I also want a series with Captain Britain/Captain Avalon. Since there really is only a few Betsy fans (myself included) that actually enjoy Otherworld and omniverse story beats.

    Rictory and Jubilee can go to New Mutants for all I care.

    I also think that the Captian Britain title being patriotic will limit her in other X-Men titles BUT maybe we'll get a good writer to have her appear in the greater MCU. But please not Jason Aaron.
    CGAR, I was rereading Secret Wars the other day and when I tell you it felt like it could've been the Otherworld title of our dreams! A moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rnap22 View Post
    I’m hoping after this story that’s currently going on, that Betsy has the same confidence that she used to have. She’s been wishy washy for most of Excalibur in IMO. The issues with Cullen where Rictor had to be the one warning her and she’s like just go to bed. Uh.. the Disassembled era was a mess, but Betsy did get some decent spotlight and wasn’t cardboard. I know why Rachel was there when she “returned”, but having Storm there would have been a nice touch. One of the things lacking in Excalibur is the interaction of people that have been friends for awhile. Rogue’s concern and drive about finding Betsy was believable, but it was weird at the same time. Jubilee could have played a better part in the arc. Betsy was the one that pulled her out of the trap in the mall. Jubilee was there for her Hand transformation and adventures after. She was even there when Betsy remade a new body for herself in Hunt for Wolverine. As much as Jubilee has been annoying me in Excalibur, I think she may have been better as the concerned party instead of Rogue.

    This arc needs to clear up and put to rest the feelings of guilt and whatever with Kwannon. Define her powers as CB now that the amulet is gone. Does she even have any anymore besides her mutant abilities? Like sit down and start defining where these characters are going and each stepping up to the plate. Also it would be nice to see Gambit stop being useless. I miss the Gambit that was smooth..
    Gambit and Jubilee should totally leave the book. I've realized that Gambit and Betsy aren't actually that close so he'll never grow beyond his role as Rogue's husband in this book because there's nothing else for him to do lol. I'm not even a Gambit fan and can acknowledge this is a bad Gambit.

    I agree that Jubilee should actually be the one spearheading the search for Betsy over Rogue. You could honestly get rid of both of them and put Dazzler in their place.

  11. #356
    Extraordinary Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I've heard most Betsy fans complain the opposite, that she's supposed to be the lead but she doesn't come across like it at all. Just last page and I'm sure most other pages of this thread, are comments that Apocalypse felt like the lead and now Rogue does.
    Where? Everyone on twitter loves Excalibur and everyone on here has said that its Betsy and her friends title. Except for you and Logan.

  12. #357
    Spectacular Member Psigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    Most of this is being addressed in story. Betsy doesn't "feel" like Betsy because that's how Tini is writing the story. We've had multiple characters even comment on how she isn't acting like herself and doing that thing where she goes inward. She just recently fought in an Excalibur issue and commented on how she still has all of her stealth tactics and it's no surprise they finally come out at a time where she's always been most comfortable: shadow work. Things like handbooks and "official power grids" are arbitrary because they change like the wind. She's had to deal with getting to be CB, people not wanting her to be it, seeing Kwannon running around in her old suit, her finally realizing that Warren might love her in her original body, etc etc. We are literally coming to the head of all that in the current arc.

    The power thing I'll give you but that's more of an issue with Excalibur as a whole. Tini doesn't really write action scenes well and when she does they aren't that quick. We rarely see anyone on the team using their power. It's nothing to do with her as CB. The fight with Isca also falls into the same regard. The fight sucked but that doesn't mean the actual narrative of Betsy's story is bad.

    I can agree that the story could be better told in certain regards but completely disagree that CB Betsy neutralizes any previous development. It uses it as a springboard to take Betsy into new territory. Disassembled Psylocke was a moment but CB Betsy is about how she's grown from that. She leaned too hard into it and left everything she was and now she's coming to terms that she didn't have to to be the hero she wants to be. We probably haven't gotten introspection on Betsy like this since Remender's UXF.
    I hope you are right that the old Betsy will come back eventually and I believe the last two issue of Excalibur(if it ends at #20) will decide whether it can keep fans interest on her.

    And like I said, if Tini can't write action or battle scenes or put character's abilities into good use, she can never be a good Marvel Comics writer but I hope she will improve. I will say the narrative of the story of Excalibur is merely ok. However, popular characters like Betsy, Rogue, Jubilee, Gambit just don't shine in the whole story but just being plain there. You can easily ask yourself whether do you like them 'more' after the Excalibur. One comparison for myself is Hellions that I am not familiar with the whole team(including Kwannon) when I started reading the first issue but loved them after watching just a few issues because they are all portrayed really interesting and fun.

    I agree if they can adjust those issues, CB Betsy should make her character grow more than just being a underground mutant ninja. Actually, we were all excited at the start of Excalibur but just disappointed of we have seen up to now.

  13. #358
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Where? Everyone on twitter loves Excalibur and everyone on here has said that its Betsy and her friends title. Except for you and Logan.
    yeah Rogue definitely isnt the lead. She has no character arc and is merely a plot device to get us from point A to B. She currently only exists as a foil for Betsy's story and Excalibur especially with Apocalypse gone is al about her

  14. #359
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Where? Everyone on twitter loves Excalibur and everyone on here has said that its Betsy and her friends title. Except for you and Logan.
    I don't follow Marvel on social but Psigal said the same as Logan and I did on the previous page. And since Excalibur started, I've seen posts on here complaining that Betsy doesn't feel like the real lead and in general, fans were saying it was basically the Apocalypse book.

  15. #360
    Spectacular Member Psigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I don't follow Marvel on social but Psigal said the same as Logan and I did on the previous page. And since Excalibur started, I've seen posts on here complaining that Betsy doesn't feel like the real lead and in general, fans were saying it was basically the Apocalypse book.
    I would say the story of Excalibur is 'suppose' to be Betsy and her friends in this run. However, what we actually got is Apocalypse's history and playing his own thing in order to setup the event for X Of Swords(but those tournaments sucked so bad that I don't even want to recall them as they are like tortures to my mind...). Betsy and her friends are just the 'tools' for him.

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