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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    That just reinforces asian betsy, wich was born from a gross orientalist story, by altering brian as well at the cost of kwannon you aren't being progressive you're just cementing that harmfull change as the definite incarnation of Betsy Braddock, the one that deserves to be shown to the world trough the mcu, at the cost of kwannon.
    It's not logical in the slightest, you can't retcon jaime and brian AND as british aristrocrats, bi-racial british indian would be far more representative of brittain
    How Betsy became Asian in the comics was racist, casting an Asian actress isn't. Betsy being Asian isn't the problem it's how she got there in the comics, which no media is touching with a ten foot pole for obvious reasons. Changing Brian does no such thing, in fact it makes it consistent in universe and why is Brian being Asian bad? Do we need another white man in the MCU? What are we really losing there? I just said how they keep keep Kwannon as a seperate character for the MCU. They're not retconning anything in the MCU by casting Asian actors for those characters, that's not what a retcon is. It's an adaption, what if those characters were made today? It's fiction, if they were like the real British royal family they'd be white people with ancestry from Europe, they don't need to do that as well as the fact their ancestry involves being royalty from a magic dimension called Otherworld.

    Edit: Adding non-white representation would be a win for progress by making those actors Asian or half Asian. The choice isn't only white and Indian, they could make them black - the point is that we don't need more white people and it;'s not like their "whiteness" defines either Betsy or Brian as an identity. They're blank slates.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 01-23-2021 at 05:12 AM.

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    How Betsy became Asian in the comics was racist, casting an Asian actress isn't. Betsy being Asian isn't the problem it's how she got there in the comics, which no media is touching with a ten foot pole for obvious reasons. Changing Brian does no such thing, in fact it makes it consistent in universe and why is Brian being Asian bad? Do we need another white man in the MCU? What are we really losing there? I just said how they keep keep Kwannon as a seperate character for the MCU. They're not retconning anything in the MCU by casting Asian actors for those characters, that's not what a retcon is. It's an adaption, what if those characters were made today? It's fiction, if they were like the real British royal family they'd be white people with ancestry from Europe, they don't need to do that as well as the fact their ancestry involves being royalty from a magic dimension called Otherworld.

    Edit: Adding non-white representation would be a win for progress by making those actors Asian or half Asian. The choice isn't only white and Indian, they could make them black - the point is that we don't need more white people and it;'s not like their "whiteness" defines either Betsy or Brian as an identity. They're blank slates.
    Id rather focus on already diverse non white characters we already have, because id rather see monet, oya, bishop, jubille, sunfire, karma and what not, being given their rightfull due, than to change the braddocks to line up with an incarnation of betsy braddock that's comercial but immensly racist.

    You cant ever seperate an asian betsy braddock from it's gross origins, you can't have a ninja psylocke named Betsy witout the very problematic origins that created it in the first place, it can't be fixed or improved, that's why they seperate the two characters and gave kwannon a fresh start with the psylocke mantle and apearence.
    British aristrocrats with a manor and a lighthouse are NOT a blank state camon now.

    And I used to not care about adaptations taking their own casting decisions, until I noticed how DC for all it's casting choices hasnt given the vixen , cyborg, black lightning, dr light, katana, lady sheva, duke thomas or nubia ANY sort of a push in it's adaptations, so it wouldn;t actually push for diversity, it just gives it a coat of paint for a few years before the characters return to their original white incarnations in the general public's mind, when that effort can be given to the many ALREADY diverse non-white characters that aren't as known and can actually make use of the push.

    If you actually care about elevating poc characters, champion for a faithfull adaptation that will elevate existing ones that will increase their popularity and visibility for years to come , that will secure them continuous presence in the books, games and comics.
    Last edited by Ferro; 01-23-2021 at 06:38 AM.

  3. #153
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    I'm fine with Betsy being either white or Asian so long as the body swap thing isn't touched. If you go with her being Japanese, you could have either be adopted, a half-sister of Brian or a stepsister via Brian's father marrying her mother. You could even make Kwannon her mom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post

    And I used to not care about adaptations taking their own casting decisions, until I noticed how DC for all it's casting choices hasnt given the vixen , cyborg, black lightning, dr light, katana, lady sheva, duke thomas or nubia ANY sort of a push in it's adaptations, so it wouldn;t actually push for diversity, it just gives it a coat of paint for a few years before the characters return to their original white incarnations in the general public's mind, when that effort can be given to the many ALREADY diverse non-white characters that aren't as known and can actually make use of the push.
    Lady Shiva has appeared in the Arkham games and was recently in an animated movie alongside Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon and Batman.

    Cyborg has been in several DC animated projects and is currently on Doom Patrol.

    Black Lightning has a t.v. show and was featured in Young Justice.

    Katana was a deuteragonist in Beware the Batman.

    Vixen was in Justice League Unlimited, Batman: The Brave and The Bold and the CW shows.

    Hell, Steel even had a movie all the way back in the 90s.

    DC pushes their original minority characters just as much as their race-lifted ones if not more.



    If you actually care about elevating poc characters, champion for a faithfull adaptation that will elevate existing ones that will increase their popularity and visibility for years to come , that will secure them continuous presence in the books, games and comics.
    It's not a binary situation. The MCU has done race lifts and still used original minority characters.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-23-2021 at 07:27 AM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    How Betsy became Asian in the comics was racist, casting an Asian actress isn't. Betsy being Asian isn't the problem it's how she got there in the comics, which no media is touching with a ten foot pole for obvious reasons. Changing Brian does no such thing, in fact it makes it consistent in universe and why is Brian being Asian bad? Do we need another white man in the MCU? What are we really losing there? I just said how they keep keep Kwannon as a seperate character for the MCU. They're not retconning anything in the MCU by casting Asian actors for those characters, that's not what a retcon is. It's an adaption, what if those characters were made today? It's fiction, if they were like the real British royal family they'd be white people with ancestry from Europe, they don't need to do that as well as the fact their ancestry involves being royalty from a magic dimension called Otherworld.

    Edit: Adding non-white representation would be a win for progress by making those actors Asian or half Asian. The choice isn't only white and Indian, they could make them black - the point is that we don't need more white people and it;'s not like their "whiteness" defines either Betsy or Brian as an identity. They're blank slates.
    I'd say at least for Brian his whiteness defines him given he looks much like the stereotypical definition of a British man even though Britain is much more diverse than that. Betsy is trickier given that she's been seen as an Asian woman for most of her history.

  5. #155
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    Casting an eurasian betsy and brian would be a great way to rise conversations about the plurality of Uk and many global cities in the world. The notion that blonde caucasians still bear the face of europe is long due to revision. In that case it is mandatory to ignore all eastern culture introjections they did into betsy character in comics (race bending a character to an non dominant ethnicity is not racist, actually it is a common artifice to move away from the white dominance in the media. The cultural appropriation on the other hand would be retrograde)

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Casting an eurasian betsy and brian would be a great way to rise conversations about the plurality of Uk and many global cities in the world. The notion that blonde caucasians still bear the face of europe is long due to revision. In that case it is mandatory to ignore all eastern culture introjections they did into betsy character in comics (race bending a character to an non dominant ethnicity is not racist, actually it is a common artifice to move away from the white dominance in the media. The cultural appropriation on the other hand would be retrograde)
    then cast anya charlotra or naomi scott, indian-british actresses wich achieve what you want unless you want ninja betsy, then kwannon is the answer

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    Id rather focus on already diverse non white characters we already have, because id rather see monet, oya, bishop, jubille, sunfire, karma and what not, being given their rightfull due, than to change the braddocks to line up with an incarnation of betsy braddock that's comercial but immensly racist.
    Diversity isn't a binary choice, Marvel can do everything. You don't need to choose as though making Sitwell Latino needs a transaction of Brian remaining white. Except you're ignoring the context for why what was done in the comics was racist. Shang-Chi's getting a movie this year with a large Asian cast, Black Panther got one years ago.

    You cant ever seperate an asian betsy braddock from it's gross origins, you can't have a ninja psylocke named Betsy witout the very problematic origins that created it in the first place, it can't be fixed or improved, that's why they seperate the two characters and gave kwannon a fresh start with the psylocke mantle and apearence.
    British aristrocrats with a manor and a lighthouse are NOT a blank state camon now.
    Of course people can, that's your issue. Betsy in both her movie appearances were of Asian origins in universe, they weren't white women stuck in Asian bodies. It's a clean slate, that's why it's an adaption not a retcon. Why are you talking about the comics, the discussion is about the movies. What happened in the comics don't apply here. I was referring to the twins identity as white people.

    And I used to not care about adaptations taking their own casting decisions, until I noticed how DC for all it's casting choices hasnt given the vixen , cyborg, black lightning, dr light, katana, lady sheva, duke thomas or nubia ANY sort of a push in it's adaptations, so it wouldn;t actually push for diversity, it just gives it a coat of paint for a few years before the characters return to their original white incarnations in the general public's mind, when that effort can be given to the many ALREADY diverse non-white characters that aren't as known and can actually make use of the push.
    DC has been addingg diversity in their movies for years, and in their tv shows in both departments. Vixen was a supporting character for years in Legends. Katana's appeared routinely on Arrow. Dr. Light and XS were on Flash. Mr. Michael Holt was in the supporting cast for Arrow. Monica Rambeau is in both Captain Marvel movies and Wanda Vision. Cyborg's a lead in Doom Patrol. The Black Lightning tv show. Luke Cage got a tv show on Netflix. Phillipus was in the Wonder Woman DCEU movie. There's so much more, as well, how long have you been following that media because you've missed the diversity of minority characters on those shows that you're complaining about. Rather than increase diversity you'd prefer that media to have even less diversity than they do now? OK. Man of Steel would be extra white with those conditions. I dislike the idea that a characters race means nothing if they're white in other media, as ifs this isn't also representation. Do you hate Iris being black in Flash?

    If you actually care about elevating poc characters, champion for a faithfull adaptation that will elevate existing ones that will increase their popularity and visibility for years to come , that will secure them continuous presence in the books, games and comics.
    Except you've ignored when the companies do that and want more white characters in adaptions instead over racial diversity. Picking between elevating POC characters in the comics and changing white characters into a minority is a false choice, we have both.

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Why do some of you need Betsy to be of asian descent?

    If you want diversity in the MCU X-Men. We have Karma, Jubilee, Kwannon, Sway and Sunpyre. Possibly many others that I can't think of right now.

    Bring characters that actually originated as Asian women.

    Betsy is not that person.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Why do some of you need Betsy to be of asian descent?

    If you want diversity in the MCU X-Men. We have Karma, Jubilee, Kwannon, Sway and Sunpyre. Possibly many others that I can't think of right now.

    Bring characters that actually originated as Asian women.

    Betsy is not that person.
    This zero sum philosophy about representation is getting really strange. As if there's a quota of how many POC are in media and if Betsy takes a spot someone else will be left out. Why would Betsy being Asian take away Marvel adding those characters? Did Sitwell being Latino take away other representation from other POC characters in the comics? Monica Rambeau's doing fine on Wanda Vision right now, despite Sitwell. Because that's what the X-men need in media, more white people.

    Were you against Chloe Bennet being cast as Daisy Johnson in Agents of SHIELD? Quake was white in the comics. That didn't stop the show bringing POC characters into the show, like Antoine Triplett.

    Betsy being Asian in other media doesn't stop Kwannon being there, the fact this gets ignored is annoying. This isn't the comics, and even that separated the two eventually but live action media? Now we only have access to a single Asian actress for either Betsy or Kwannon. It's ridiculous.

  10. #160
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Why do you need Betsy to be Asian?

    Also Daisy Johnson was always half Asian.

    Some of you just want her to be Asian because of your nostalgic views and wanting your favorite character to look like they do in your heads.

    In Feige I trust. I’d rather her not intro in a X-men movie.

    All I need is the British accent and purple hair and fighting abilities.
    Last edited by CGAR; 01-23-2021 at 11:06 PM.

  11. #161
    Astonishing Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    QUEEN ELIZABETH III?!?
    EXCALIBUR #17 preview:
    https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...s-excalibur-17
    Last edited by Thirteen; 01-23-2021 at 11:26 PM.

  12. #162
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Captain Jubilee is dead now, right?

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post

    Also Daisy Johnson was always half Asian.
    No she wasn't. The character was based on Angelina Jolie when she first appeared. Her being half-Asian was retconned into her backstory after portrayal on Agents of SHIELD.

  14. #164
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Diversity isn't a binary choice, Marvel can do everything. You don't need to choose as though making Sitwell Latino needs a transaction of Brian remaining white. Except you're ignoring the context for why what was done in the comics was racist. Shang-Chi's getting a movie this year with a large Asian cast, Black Panther got one years ago.



    Of course people can, that's your issue. Betsy in both her movie appearances were of Asian origins in universe, they weren't white women stuck in Asian bodies. It's a clean slate, that's why it's an adaption not a retcon. Why are you talking about the comics, the discussion is about the movies. What happened in the comics don't apply here. I was referring to the twins identity as white people.



    DC has been addingg diversity in their movies for years, and in their tv shows in both departments. Vixen was a supporting character for years in Legends. Katana's appeared routinely on Arrow. Dr. Light and XS were on Flash. Mr. Michael Holt was in the supporting cast for Arrow. Monica Rambeau is in both Captain Marvel movies and Wanda Vision. Cyborg's a lead in Doom Patrol. The Black Lightning tv show. Luke Cage got a tv show on Netflix. Phillipus was in the Wonder Woman DCEU movie. There's so much more, as well, how long have you been following that media because you've missed the diversity of minority characters on those shows that you're complaining about. Rather than increase diversity you'd prefer that media to have even less diversity than they do now? OK. Man of Steel would be extra white with those conditions. I dislike the idea that a characters race means nothing if they're white in other media, as ifs this isn't also representation. Do you hate Iris being black in Flash?



    Except you've ignored when the companies do that and want more white characters in adaptions instead over racial diversity. Picking between elevating POC characters in the comics and changing white characters into a minority is a false choice, we have both.
    have you noticed how none of those characters are main characters or have their own movies? A black writer was kicked out of the new superman show because she criticized their lack of black characters and how most were villains.
    and black lightning is ending so that's another moot point, I don't care Iris is black but after some thinking I care more that the vixen doesnt have a movie, same for cyborg. If they had movies where they were clearly the main characters theyd be in comics and games and animation from that point forward, hence ELEVATING an already diverse character to permenant exposure.

    Making betsy asian just to return to comics and games to see that ACTUALLY she was a white woman shoved into an asian body because claremont has one trick, and jim lee is a style over substance creator, it's the definition of counter productive.

    And when it comes to betsy none of those adaptations were in any way accurate to her personality, they weren't a british women that had seen the world, neither versions were EVEN clearly telepathic, hell the movie director on apocalypse DIDNT EVEN KNOW BETSY HAD A TWIN, olivia munn had to inform him.
    Using two apearences with 5 seconds of dialogue to prove your point makes no sense.
    They weren't betsy, they were the Psylocke that got popular by capcom, you could give them any first and second name and it be the same, such a clean slate indeed that's not even an adaptation.
    It's adapting psylocke, not betsy braddock.

    If you have a headcanon pass it as such, don't try to impose and try to create this narrative people that disagree with you are agaist diversity, stop deflecting the point and twisting other's words, if you don't want more white people in the x-men movies, that's fine.
    Advocate for characters that can actually use the push and are genuinly rooted on that origin since their creation, not betsy, who already has decades of history to rely on.

    you know who can use a push? sunfire and his sister, karma, sway, jubilee, kwannon. THAT'S a true win for progress because people that fall for those movie adaptations will have an entire history of books and animation and games to find out, and then more in the future.

    Then you do that with betsy, then everyone finds out she was casted and her brother as asian to apease the fans of a racist and problematic story, so why in the hell is it productive to make sure that version of the character is adapted? And why drag brian and jaime into it?
    And if you truly want to represent brittain, indian/pakistani bi-racial british actors are the way to go, but you can't put naomi scott betsy braddock in a psylocke bathing suit with katana, can you?
    Last edited by Ferro; 01-24-2021 at 02:31 AM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    then cast anya charlotra or naomi scott, indian-british actresses wich achieve what you want unless you want ninja betsy, then kwannon is the answer
    I donít agree that Englandís plurality is solely expressed by indian/pakistanese descendants.

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