Betsy Braddock: Captain Britain Appreciation 2021

[Celestialbodies]

So you want kwannon or just a nameless capcom psylocke, just say that LOL because betsy has had all 3 since her body switch, and last issue showcassed betsy's full capabilities wielded by another person witout any remorse/inner turmoil that betsy has been going trough.

Whoa, whoa let me stop you and your projection right there, you're confusing two different points I was making, I have gone on record MANY times saying how I thought her CB could be amazing for her overall. Second the video had absolutely nothing to do with that point, it's just a cool video, moreover when the video was released 4 years ago. Bets was very much still in the Psylocke body which is why I stated what I did about Psylocke not Bets as Psylocke which as of right now there's a difference.

Please slow down with the rhetoric of anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong in their opinion, it is really gross and not at all conducive to a mutual discussion!

[Psigal]

Whoa, whoa let me stop you and your projection right there, you're confusing two different points I was making, I have gone on record MANY times saying how I thought her CB could be amazing for her overall. Second the video had absolutely nothing to do with that point, it's just a cool video, moreover when the video was released 4 years ago. Bets was very much still in the Psylocke body which is why I stated what I did about Psylocke not Bets as Psylocke which as of right now there's a difference.

Please slow down with the rhetoric of anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong in their opinion, it is really gross and not at all conducive to a mutual discussion!

I think you can just ignore Ferro that he or she just 'hate' Asian Psylocke. You can check his/her previous posts whenever you showed some appreciation for Ninja Betsy, it is not allowed and you should just like Kwannon instead, lol. He/She just cannot accept that is part of Betsy's adventure and who she was for a time.

And here is my view on why Betsy being in the Asian body is a karma thing and good for her development instead of just being eye candy in the past decades.

Betsy is like a tomboy when she was young and like to play with sword and other 'boys stuff'. However, she had those 70s/80s female's thought that made her give up those 'boy stuff' and grow up to be a normal girl. She may has strong will to survive but she is also vulnerable in her heart because 'if' she was born to be a 'strong woman', she would just ignore other views and do whatever she wanted but she 'didn't'. Also because of this, she has some mental issue and dislike her 'female body' because she thought it has limited what she can do in the past. However, being in Kwannon's body which is also a 'female body' has changed her view completely. With enough training and practice, even in a 'female body' she can just be strong and deadly and take down her opponent just like men and it shouldn't limit on what she want to do. If it is not for this experience, she would still be the woman that is hiding inside her armor and needs protection but not the 'perfect' Psylocke in Disassembled which is a powerful telepathy and also an excellent fighter.

(I would like to add 'confident' too to describe Disassembled Betsy but people said the writer has implied she may has confident issue again so I guess I shouldn't...It just feel like a regression and it is not necessary. Like I said, it is Marvel and the writer won't let Betsy to move on and thats the reason she has such poor performance in Excalibur.)

[Rnap22]

Yeah.. you’re not allowed to mention how poorly written she is in Excalibur or you’re told that you’re not even reading the comic and just complaining. You can’t mention how confident she was. You can’t mention the butterfly. You can’t bring up anything that you liked about her and definitely state your opinion about where she is going now or else you get a dig at either your intelligence and comprehension of Tini’s writing or just told to like Kwannon instead.

[Adam-X]

1. Betsy in her British body was more careful, and was trying to distract and elude Sabretooth long enough for help to show up. She was well aware she couldn't be a match for him.
2. Betsy in Kwannon's body was reckless and overconfident in that moment. She thought the combination of her ninja skills and physique combined with the new Psychic Knife - she would be able to overcome him. However, he was resistant/immune at the time to the knife. Which is what cost her that battle.

It's not about which body is more useful in your two examples. It's about knowing your capabilities and reading the danger appropriately. Not to mention, again, she was throwing herself in front of Sabretooth to save a child. So...either way...she's got guts and saved the youth in those two examples.

I think you maybe missed my point.
I was implying that Betsy doesn't need to be in her "Ninja" body to be bad arse. Yes, "British Body" Betsy held off Sabretooth till help came - but she held him off. Wolverine has had problems holding him off. An entire society of Morlocks with diverse powers couldn't stop him. And in her "Ninja" body she got gutted.

As I said - it all depends on the story the writer wants to tell. They can make British Body Betsy be just as incredible as Ninja Body Betsy if the story calls for it.

[Psigal]

I think you maybe missed my point.
I was implying that Betsy doesn't need to be in her "Ninja" body to be bad arse. Yes, "British Body" Betsy held off Sabretooth till help came - but she held him off. Wolverine has had problems holding him off. An entire society of Morlocks with diverse powers couldn't stop him. And in her "Ninja" body she got gutted.

As I said - it all depends on the story the writer wants to tell. They can make British Body Betsy be just as incredible as Ninja Body Betsy if the story calls for it.

Basically, you two are talking about the same thing. Actually, this is a good example of Betsy's mental issue with her 'bodies'.

The first 'fight' with Sabretooth in her original british body which she considered 'weak', she is able to survive. Ironically, in the second fight with Sabretooth in Kwannon's body which she considered 'strong', she actually lost and got herself killed.

So in the end, it is always a personal judgement on whether she can make something useful. Like when you can mind blast to disable or kill a person in one shot, why do you still need physical fighting skill? Betsy is just so lost on this matter because if she concentrate working on her telepathy, she may probably just behind Jean and Xavier in the X-Academy. But instead, she walks her own path which got her a lot of trouble and even being killed for a few times. However, that is what made this character appearing when compare to other X-Men(especially among telepathy which I find they are mostly boring).

[Shadowcat]

That is simply not true; her being among the key members from Europe has been a recurring thing for her, during her time in the Asian body, too.
And I'd say moreso than it is for Nightcrawler or Colossus.

How so? Please, give me examples of how being a key European character has factored into her character? I’ve followed Betsy since Uncanny 213, and other than Claremont, I can’t think of any other writers try to explore her “European-ness”. I have seen countless examples of her being tied to stereotypes dealing with Asian culture, specifically Japanese culture since being in Kwannon’s body.

https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/...sylocke_2009_1

https://pin.it/2mUL671

https://pin.it/2AvEtjF

https://pin.it/6nganut

https://pin.it/5x9nvtB

https://pin.it/2ErVvYn

https://pin.it/uKutH8h

https://pin.it/NHBAgAu

https://pin.it/4kpBzHx

And Psylocke remained an English Catholic girl, her scenes meditating have existed since her first days as an X-Man, every telepath is a practitioner of meditation and that has had absolutely nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Meditation wasn’t the point, Dani didn’t suddenly become a token of Norse iconography because she became a Valkyrie. Betsy did become a fetishized Asian caricature after the body swap. I have always loved Betsy, and loved her adventures in both bodies, both ethnicities, both journeys, but now she’s back in her original body, and Kwannon is in her own. Kwannon receiving better character growth because of the writer has nothing to do with which body Betsy is in. It falls on the shoulders of the writer’s abilities to flesh these women out, and help us, as well as the characters, discover who they are. Putting her back in Kwannon’s body just strips her of any agency, or chance to become a fully fleshed out character.

[Shadowcat]

Regardless, I’m a fan of Betsy in either body, but she’s back in her Caucasian form, and this is where her journey should continue.

[Adam-X]

Meditation wasn’t the point, Dani didn’t suddenly become a token of Norse iconography because she became a Valkyrie. Betsy did become a fetishized Asian caricature after the body swap. I have always loved Betsy, and loved her adventures in both bodies, both ethnicities, both journeys, but now she’s back in her original body, and Kwannon is in her own. Kwannon receiving better character growth because of the writer has nothing to do with which body Betsy is in. It falls on the shoulders of the writer’s abilities to flesh these women out, and help us, as well as the characters, discover who they are. Putting her back in Kwannon’s body just strips her of any agency, or chance to become a fully fleshed out character.

This is true that Dani didn't become a frishized caricature. But Psylocke - along with every female X-Men in the 90s was drawn with immense sex appeal.
I mean let's take Rogue who looked like she was 45 years old in her first appearance - then to the 90s when she was in the Savage Land. She got younger. Sexier. And a boob job.



Had Dani been drawn sexy in the Valkyrie armor - people would have probably clamoured all over her too. Instead everyone loved Psylocke because she was running around in a bikini, and people loved Rogue because she was drawn sexy, and people loved Storm because... Well you get the idea. In the 90s - comics definitely seemed to be gearing towards young men who were reading comics like Playboy.

That said - like you - I've always enjoyed Psylocke. I picked up Hellions (very recently) to see what they do with Kwannon.

So far, she reminds me too much of "Betsy Psylocke."

Which I already blabbed about in the Kwannon thread.

[Rnap22]

I wonder if there are any influences from Betsy in Kwannon. I remember after the melding of the two retcon that there was an influence from the Kwannon side on Betsy. I wonder if there is any on Kwannon?

[Ferro]

I wonder if there are any influences from Betsy in Kwannon. I remember after the melding of the two retcon that there was an influence from the Kwannon side on Betsy. I wonder if there is any on Kwannon?

the new powers she has are from betsy, but that's a very interesting question Id love to see kwannon's prespective, or a deeper look at it, since hill focused on a strange retcon instead of ever referencing matsuo or the legacy virus

[Selene]

How so? Please, give me examples of how being a key European character has factored into her character? I’ve followed Betsy since Uncanny 213, and other than Claremont, I can’t think of any other writers try to explore her “European-ness”. I have seen countless examples of her being tied to stereotypes dealing with Asian culture, specifically Japanese culture since being in Kwannon’s body.

https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/...sylocke_2009_1

https://pin.it/2mUL671

https://pin.it/2AvEtjF

https://pin.it/6nganut

https://pin.it/5x9nvtB

https://pin.it/2ErVvYn

https://pin.it/uKutH8h

https://pin.it/NHBAgAu

https://pin.it/4kpBzHx

Those are illustrations, not stories; literally no different than Moonstar riding on Brightwind's back. Those examples are more "persuant" to her being a martial artist than a person of Asian descent, which is why Wolverine or Daredevil are frequently drawn in similar themes.

A handful of writers apart from Claremont have touched upon her origins after her brain got transplanted into an Asian body: Ben Raab, Rick Remender, Alan Davis, and even those who wrote her with mixed results, from Nicieza to Kelly and from Lobdel to Spurrier, gave her the voice of an upper class woman from England.

The only Asian-themed stories she's gotten were a three-part secondary act in the Acts of Vengeance, the Kwannon fiasco during Nicieza's run, the Crimson Dawn and a four-part mini in 2010 (with the later two having had practically zero impact on her progression).

Meditation wasn’t the point, Dani didn’t suddenly become a token of Norse iconography because she became a Valkyrie. Betsy did become a fetishized Asian caricature after the body swap. I have always loved Betsy, and loved her adventures in both bodies, both ethnicities, both journeys, but now she’s back in her original body, and Kwannon is in her own. Kwannon receiving better character growth because of the writer has nothing to do with which body Betsy is in. It falls on the shoulders of the writer’s abilities to flesh these women out, and help us, as well as the characters, discover who they are. Putting her back in Kwannon’s body just strips her of any agency, or chance to become a fully fleshed out character.

That is clearly debatable, when Kwannon's development is conspicuously canibalising on the Psylocke brand. Sorry if I'm getting tiresome with this, but unless this stops, folks here will never stop complaining.

[Adam-X]

Sorry if I'm getting tiresome with this, but unless this stops, folks here will never stop complaining.

To be fair - it's probably not people complaining vs people having a different point of view, which we're all entitled to. We're different people who rose up in different years, different neighborhoods, and had different experiences in life that shape who we are.

So there can be peace - just accepting we're all different and entitled to these different opinions.

[CGAR]

So do we think Tini Howards approach to writing Betsy is: Showing rather than telling or telling rather than showing?

And which one would you prefer?

Honestly, I think its more showing rather than telling because we the reader are left to interpret what Betsy is really going through on panel.

I think some of the insight and reflection should be actually coming from Betsy herself. Inner dialogue or her saying things out right.

For example:

We're shown that Betsy always wanted to be Captain Britain and that she felt she deserved it.

We're shown that an alternate Warren fell in love with a caucasian Betsy so there is a possiblity that 616 Warren could actually love her as well.

We're shown that she feels guilty about Kwannon because of how much she wanted to avoid her.

We're shown that she is insecure with her new role because of outside sources or opinions; Clan Akkaba, Saturnyne, and humans.

What do you all think? I think Tini Howard is relying too much on us interpreting panels but some things are not being written in the actual issues.

Yes I understand that writers are trusting the reader BUT I just don't think she's doing a good job of getting into the nitty gritty of the character.

And I know she is playing the long game and making it seem like it should be deserved but I really think its been dragging.

Some fans are saying that whats happening to Betsy now is so obvious because of issue blah panel this where it shows it.

But we shouldnt have to dig up issues that came out more than 15 yrs ago to understand what Betsy is going through. IMO.

[Ferro]

I mean I respect your opinion CGar and agree it's not perfect, but to me personally comics are a visual medium (and also a pretty bad medium so to me the bar is pretty low), some even use show not tell as major narrative rule, it depends on what each person prefers in the end.

To me I enjoy getting to figure out these panels adding more to it, since from my reading these moments shown all add up in a consistent journey that's gotten more clear when betsy teamed up with kwannon, maybe a text/narration bubble could explain the situation better, that in that moment of honesty betsy brings out the things inside of her she has tried to push down for her guilt and becoming captain brittain.
But you have your's, I respect it since you have been giving the story its fair reading

you have a balanced view even if a negative one that I do not share.

[Rnap22]

So do we think Tini Howards approach to writing Betsy is: Showing rather than telling or telling rather than showing?

And which one would you prefer?

Honestly, I think its more showing rather than telling because we the reader are left to interpret what Betsy is really going through on panel.

I think some of the insight and reflection should be actually coming from Betsy herself. Inner dialogue or her saying things out right.

For example:

We're shown that Betsy always wanted to be Captain Britain and that she felt she deserved it.

We're shown that an alternate Warren fell in love with a caucasian Betsy so there is a possiblity that 616 Warren could actually love her as well.

We're shown that she feels guilty about Kwannon because of how much she wanted to avoid her.

We're shown that she is insecure with her new role because of outside sources or opinions; Clan Akkaba, Saturnyne, and humans.

What do you all think? I think Tini Howard is relying too much on us interpreting panels but some things are not being written in the actual issues.

Yes I understand that writers are trusting the reader BUT I just don't think she's doing a good job of getting into the nitty gritty of the character.

And I know she is playing the long game and making it seem like it should be deserved but I really think its been dragging.

Some fans are saying that whats happening to Betsy now is so obvious because of issue blah panel this where it shows it.

But we shouldnt have to dig up issues that came out more than 15 yrs ago to understand what Betsy is going through. IMO.

See, for me, I don’t really see her wanting to be Captain Britain. She did it in the past and she took a some convincing to take it. When she joined the X-men, we really start to see her wanting to become this warrior. This hero. She’s surrounded by Wolverine and Storm (without powers at the time) and it seems like she feels she doesn’t belong with them. But at the same time we see her staying alive by the attack from Sabertooth where she led him away from the injured Morlocks. She took on the Juggernaut. She was ready to kill Havok when he first appeared because they weren’t sure they could trust him. We see in the one annual that her dream was to become a warrior. The only time she seemed to be upset about Brian being chosen to be CB was when she was being brainwashed by the Hand in the AOV storyline. I don’t take that at face value since all of that was being done to cut ties with those closest to her to get “their rings”. So Asian Betsy was just her getting what she wanted (and not what she wanted - getting manipulated mentally and this time physically).

The introduction of Kwannon kind of killed the original story for me. I do like Kwannon now that we are finally getting development on her in Hellions (sorry FA was awful). I am glad that Betsy is back in the body in which she belongs in. I think Tini wants to do all this stuff with her and it’s just not landing for me. What I see on panel and written word is just not meshing. I listened to the Cerebro podcast and it just sounded like a lot of fan wanking over her writing, which I don’t think is that great. Listening to it, I heard the word “privilege” a lot. A lot. And I don’t think that Betsy has ignored it because she doesn’t care or it’s like a white privilege and I’m back in my body. Kwannon also refused to deal with it. They were both victims. How did Betsy know that Kwannon would come back after she was seemingly killed? She didn’t. I think Betsy comes from the background of privilege, as in money, but I don’t see it as race privilege with what was done to them and how she dealt or felt about it. The trauma is probably NOT dealing with it. Both of them. That’s why it needs to be fully addressed with both parties understanding that they were both victims and apologizing.

I’m fine with her becoming CB. I do really think that there are huge misses in this all of a sudden want to be CB storyline. There were a lot choices that felt weird. The “call me Betsy” stuff in the first issue. Being clueless in war wolves thing (where Tini mentioned that a “gay brown person” had to clue her in that something was wrong - again saying because of her privilege which I still don’t get). I really don’t think I’ve really seen Betsy be clueless in quite some time. She usually seems to be the most observant of people (I missed cloaked creepy telepath Betsy).

I think in this medium, you have to be able to tell a story visually and with words. What a writer may put in their script that they want conveyed my not make it to panel or get lost in translation. Thought bubbles are not the enemy. These are stories where we can be privy to private thoughts of the characters unlike on television or movies. Execution is key and I’ve read every issue and even the ones where I think that was a decent one, there’s stuff that makes me change my mind. What Tini wants to do and what she’s actually doing are two different things.