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  1. #91
    Incredible Member Alphaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psylurker View Post
    I love that story-arc, I had read a few X-Men issues before but the Lady Mandarin saga really turned me into an X-Men (and Betsy Braddock) fan for life.

    And to answer your question, Claremont's original take was that Asian Betsy was simply British Betsy given Asian features via surgery and magic, so it would make a degree of sense for Logan to recognize her if that was the case.

    Years later when Nicieza came up with the Kwannon retcon, at some point he revealed it was actually Kwannon who attacked Logan in that instance... never mind the hair, eyes and everything that's actually on panel, but that's the official explanation.
    I just got the latest omnibus and totally had the same reaction rereading that. It was such an oversight on the editors part, even if Nicieza missed one issue. It was pretty obvious what Claremont's intension was, but I wonder how much input Lee had on Betsy's change. It was defiantly before editorial push for the artist over the writer, but Claremont usually had great relationships with his artists that I could see Jim suggesting her redesign.

    But all of that was in the 80s and hindsight is 20/20. Having Betsy run around in yellowface is the meaning of 'problematic'. Creating Kwannon was a much better choice, even if it was convoluted as hell.

  2. #92
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    I don't see it as her being in yellowface because it wasn't done of her choosing, it wasn't like blackface that people would have to put on every morning, Betsy was in the body and she couldn't change it and she didn't pick it, so she wasn't pretending to be anything. Her body was the more Asian one, and I don't remember Marvel pushing her as being one of their Asian characters either...

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Logan are you of the white/caucasian persuasion?

    Having someone who is white. Put into an asian body. Even if it wasn't her choice. Is a huge issue. And always will be to others. Even if you don't view it as yellow face. It still is and its bad.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I don't see it as her being in yellowface because it wasn't done of her choosing, it wasn't like blackface that people would have to put on every morning, Betsy was in the body and she couldn't change it and she didn't pick it, so she wasn't pretending to be anything. Her body was the more Asian one, and I don't remember Marvel pushing her as being one of their Asian characters either...
    Yes, the character is not racist in the narrative per say, but the fact they gave a white british character an yellow makeover rather than creating or promoting an actual yellow asian hero is often questioned.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Logan are you of the white/caucasian persuasion?

    Having someone who is white. Put into an asian body. Even if it wasn't her choice. Is a huge issue. And always will be to others. Even if you don't view it as yellow face. It still is and its bad.
    They dealt with it well by having Elizabeth recreate her British body and Kwannon retake her original body.

    That needed to happen.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsontt View Post
    Yes, the character is not racist in the narrative per say, but the fact they gave a white british character an yellow makeover rather than creating or promoting an actual yellow asian hero is often questioned.
    Technically, by the name Nicieza came around they created Kwannon, but killed her off and let Elizabeth possess her body. Meaning Kwannon could not be developed as a person. She was just skin for Elizabeth.

    That was very bad. Plus ninja Psylocke’s connection to Otherworld and Britain were only barely mentioned and Betsy was poorer for it.

    I also like now Kwannon is back as Psylocke we can see more of her past and learn what motivates her.

  7. #97
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    To be fair, her connection to Otherworld and Britain was barely mentioned prior to Nicieza coming on board. It was not a part of her characterization when Claremont brought her to the X-men even when it would have been relevant (Roma bringing the team to the Starlight Citadel). Ironically, Betsy's ties to Otherworld were most pominent when she was in the Asian body years later during HoM and Uncanny X-Force

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Logan are you of the white/caucasian persuasion?

    Having someone who is white. Put into an asian body. Even if it wasn't her choice. Is a huge issue. And always will be to others. Even if you don't view it as yellow face. It still is and its bad.
    Yes I am, just saying that to me black or any other color face is only if it's done by the person's choice to pretend to be someone that they're not, with Betsy she wasn't pretending and would admit what had happened openly...

  9. #99
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Yes I am, just saying that to me black or any other color face is only if it's done by the person's choice to pretend to be someone that they're not, with Betsy she wasn't pretending and would admit what had happened openly...
    And thats problematic thinking for whyu it was able to persist. Betsy isnt guilty of committing yellowface bc as you say, it wasnt her choice. Marvel however is guilty of it. If they went and made Kitty Pryde black, that would be a problem even if she herself didnt choose it. Marvel used Psylocke for years as false face of diversity and the lead Asian representative for the X-men for decades, never elevating anyone the way they did her (Jubilee was the closest). Betsy is a white woman. She is not nor has she ever truly been an Asian woman and it was disingenuous to pretend as if she was for as long as they did. It was yellowface and troublesome. Do you really not see why this is an issue?

  10. #100
    Incredible Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    I don’t see the problem. A story is a story. Betsy gets turned Asian. Abe Jenkins was turned black. Tom Corsi and Sharon Friedlander were turned into Native Americans. Sasquatch was turned female. Characters go through transformations as part of stories. There was no agenda. Some got changed back. Some didn’t. Just enjoy the story. Or don’t.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Yes I am, just saying that to me black or any other color face is only if it's done by the person's choice to pretend to be someone that they're not, with Betsy she wasn't pretending and would admit what had happened openly...
    I think people aren't hanging the problem on the character. It sounds like the finger is being pointed at the writers and editors. It was their deliberate choice that landed Betsy in an Asian presentation for years in our time.

  12. #102
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    To me the thing is that if she chose it that's one thing, but because she didn't then it's different. I've never said that blackface or yellowface was right, only that I didn't see Betsy's case as being either...

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    But IT is.

    Enjoy a story all you want.

    They put a white woman and made her Asian.

    I really don't understand why its hard to compute.

    She's not real Logan. But it's still an issue.

    The writer and editors and the Asian artist (Jim Lee) put a WHITE character and gave her a "story" and turned her Asian.

    They literally could have just introduced an Asian character BUT they made a WHITE person ASIAN.

    You're like actively turning a blind eye to the issue because you, as a white man, don't think that it's wrong.

    You definitely wouldn't like if Warren or Alex were put into an Asian, African-American or Native American body.

  14. #104
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    But IT is.

    Enjoy a story all you want.

    They put a white woman and made her Asian.

    I really don't understand why its hard to compute.

    She's not real Logan. But it's still an issue.

    The writer and editors and the Asian artist (Jim Lee) put a WHITE character and gave her a "story" and turned her Asian.

    They literally could have just introduced an Asian character BUT they made a WHITE person ASIAN.

    You're like actively turning a blind eye to the issue because you, as a white man, don't think that it's wrong.

    You definitely wouldn't like if Warren or Alex were put into an Asian, African-American or Native American body.
    and left like that for the next 30 years

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    you guys know my opinion, not only was it a gross orientalistic story decision, it was also COMPLETLY UNECESSARY. for betsy braddock at the time, it was the worse possible path to take her after the siege perilous.

    It's part of claremont's larger issue with putting female characters trough atrocious and quite honestly problematic narratives to force a redesign or power-change, he did it sucessfully with storm, but no with karma, polaris, psylocke, maddelyn pryor

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