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  1. #316
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Yeah, mutant CB with ties to Otherworld and maybe even branching out to fight supernatural threats against mutants is a solid trajectory with lots of potential. We've barely scratched the surface of this new status quo so I'm not ready to revert back to anything just yet. Especially considering that if Betsy did change her moniker right now we'd be right back to square one and having her go through yet another identity change trying to build herself back from the ground up.

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    Yeah, mutant CB with ties to Otherworld and maybe even branching out to fight supernatural threats against mutants is a solid trajectory with lots of potential. We've barely scratched the surface of this new status quo so I'm not ready to revert back to anything just yet. Especially considering that if Betsy did change her moniker right now we'd be right back to square one and having her go through yet another identity change trying to build herself back from the ground up.
    Captain Britain Betsy may have a lot of potential. However, there are reasons we don't like her being CB up to now because it seems to neutralize all her previous development in the Asian body.

    Firstly, her personality changed greatly as she is no longer being a bad ass and lack confident. I don't really see the reason in this because their bodies aren't so much difference beside the skin and hair color. Also, the other mutants have already known this issue for a long time so I don't think there would be much embarrassment. The only reason I can thought of is, does Betsy think the Asian body is better than her original White body?

    Secondly, She seems to lose all the fighting skill of the Asian body and the prove is her 'fighting abilities' in the official power grid as Psylocke was 6 but dropped to 4 as Captain Britain. Does this mean she lost all her skill as Ninja as we have seen none in Excalibur?

    Thirdly, Telepathy is her mutant power and best trait. Usually, mutants with powerful telepathy comes with a weak body like Xavier, Jean, Emma...etc, so they needs to rely on their mind as their bodies are weak. But right now when Betsy given the power of CB by the amulet or starlight sword, she rarely use her mutant power anymore(mainly just for communication or make her brother behave) but rely on the CB power completely(maybe she is still using her Psi-Weapons but is this really necessary as she has much more raw strength now? What I want to say is her mutant power contradicted to her CB power). Moreover, none of her CB power is impressive so far that many people actually wondered if Betsy has all those CB power until we saw the boost in power grid of the official handbook.

    Lasly, remember her duel in X of swords? That is actually the most embarrassing and humiliating moment in Betsy's history...We don't mind that she lost but please at least give her a good fight. From what I have seen, she used her shield to push her opponent once and then got shattered into pieces by the starlight sword. What the hell? Tini Howard can never be a good writer in Marvel Comics if she can't understand mutant abilities and write some good fights or clever use of them.

    So, unless the questions and issues above are answered and solved, I can't support her as CB. She was so great in Disassembled and that is the perfect Betsy/Psylocke in her original body that we have been waiting for but got abandoned.
    Last edited by Psigal; 02-22-2021 at 11:59 PM.

  3. #318
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    I hate to be blunt but people are going to have to get over it as she isnt likely to reclaim being Psylocke anytime soon. Marvel is fully committed to Kwannon as Psylocke and they are doing wonders with her on that fron. Unfortunately Betsy has suffered but without Captain Britian to keep her relevant, she would likely be in limbo. I dont like Otherworld and magic stuff but it does help set her apart as a character. Without being Captain Britain or Psylocke, she just becomes a generic telepath and the X-line has no shortage of those whom they already actively use (Jean, Emma, Cuckoos, Kid Cable, Quentin, Rachel). She really just needs a better writer bc it can work in the right hands

  4. #319
    Mighty Member Psyknight's Avatar
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    Captain Britain Betsy may have a lot of potential. However, there are reasons we don't like her being CB up to now because it seems to neutralize all her previous development in the Asian body.

    Firstly, her personality changed greatly as she is no longer being a bad ass and lack confident. I don't really see the reason in this because their bodies aren't so much difference beside the skin and hair color. Also, the other mutants have already known this issue for a long time so I don't think there would be much embarrassment. The only reason I can thought of is, does Betsy think the Asian body is better than her original White body?

    Secondly, She seems to lose all the fighting skill of the Asian body and the prove is her 'fighting abilities' in the official power grid as Psylocke was 6 but dropped to 4 as Captain Britain. Does this mean she lost all her skill as Ninja as we have seen none in Excalibur?

    Thirdly, Telepathy is her mutant power and best trait. Usually, mutants with powerful telepathy comes with a weak body like Xavier, Jean, Emma...etc, so they needs to rely on their mind as their bodies are weak. But right now when Betsy given the power of CB by the amulet or starlight sword, she rarely use her mutant power anymore(mainly just for communication or make her brother behave) but rely on the CB power. However, none of the CB power is impressive so far that many people actually wonder if Betsy has all those CB power until we saw the boost in power grid of the official handbook.

    Lasly, remember her duel in X of swords, that is actually the most embarrassing moment in Betsy's history...We don't mind that she lost but please at least give her a good fight. From what I have seen, she used her shield to push her opponent once and then got shattered into pieces by the starlight sword. What the hell? Tini Howard can never be a good writer in Marvel Comics if she can't understand mutant abilities and write some good fights or clever use of them.

    So, unless the questions and issues above are answer and solved, I can't support her as CB. She was so great in Disassembled and that is the perfect Betsy/Psylocke in her original body that we have been looking for.

    Yep. This is exactly why I canít stand Excalibur. The book reads like itís designed to get people to lose interest in Betts. Itís been nothing but a loss for the character.
    Last edited by Psyknight; 02-22-2021 at 09:57 PM.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I hate to be blunt but people are going to have to get over it as she isnt likely to reclaim being Psylocke anytime soon. Marvel is fully committed to Kwannon as Psylocke and they are doing wonders with her on that fron. Unfortunately Betsy has suffered but without Captain Britian to keep her relevant, she would likely be in limbo. I dont like Otherworld and magic stuff but it does help set her apart as a character. Without being Captain Britain or Psylocke, she just becomes a generic telepath and the X-line has no shortage of those whom they already actively use (Jean, Emma, Cuckoos, Kid Cable, Quentin, Rachel). She really just needs a better writer bc it can work in the right hands
    That isn't the problem of being Psylocke or Captain Britain. Betsy seems to have a 'reset' on her personality and abilities since she becomes CB instead of 'carry on' of what she has gained and learnt after she left the Asian body. Why we like Disassembled Betsy because she was the one we knew for the last 30 years(the development) but the Excalibur Betsy is totally a new character.

    I think the reason behind is they needs to sacrifice Betsy's development to create Kwannon so they can be different characters. Otherwise, Betsy is going to have everything Kwannon 'got' and she will be always under the shadow of Betsy but Marvel just don't want this to happen so they 'nerfed' Betsy for Kwannon to exist which is a sad decision for Betsy's fans and created the 'hate' on Kwannon. However, it is just all Marvel's fault as they should done something better than this.
    Last edited by Psigal; 02-22-2021 at 11:01 PM.

  6. #321
    Fantastic Member Knightmare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    That isn't the problem of being Psylocke or Captain Britain. Betsy seems to have a 'reset' on her personality and abilities since she becomes CB instead of 'carry on' of what she has gained and learnt after she left the Asian body. Why we like Disassembled Betsy because she was the one we knew for the last 30 years(the development) but the Excalibur Betsy is totally a new character.

    I think the reason behind is they needs to sacrifice Betsy's development to create Kwannon so they can be different characters. Otherwise, Betsy is going to have everything Kwannon 'got' and she will be always under the shadow of Betsy but Marvel just don't want this to happen so they 'nerfed' Betsy for Kwannon to exist which is a sad decision for Betsy's fans and created the 'hate' on Kwannon. However, it is just all Marvel's fault as they should done something better than this.
    Now that I think about it, there was an easy out that would have satisfied most Betsy fans. If she had taken the Sword of Might when it was offered to her, Tini could easily have kept her personality similar to that of Psylocke. Explained that according to lore, those that pick the sword put might before right which if I understand it was Betsy M.O. before. Now that she's taken the Amulet of Right(which she destroyed) and the Starlight Sword(which may also be destroyed) it feels like she's tried to go from being Wolverine to Captain America. It's just too much of a personality shift, that in my opinion can't really be explained by getting a new body.

    Ideally she would have become more like Albion(Bran Bardic) who lived in a world of war and was the first Captain Britain to choose the sword. Instead of trying to create a female clone of her brother.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightmare View Post
    Now that I think about it, there was an easy out that would have satisfied most Betsy fans. If she had taken the Sword of Might when it was offered to her, Tini could easily have kept her personality similar to that of Psylocke. Explained that according to lore, those that pick the sword put might before right which if I understand it was Betsy M.O. before. Now that she's taken the Amulet of Right(which she destroyed) and the Starlight Sword(which may also be destroyed) it feels like she's tried to go from being Wolverine to Captain America. It's just too much of a personality shift, that in my opinion can't really be explained by getting a new body.

    Ideally she would have become more like Albion(Bran Bardic) who lived in a world of war and was the first Captain Britain to choose the sword. Instead of trying to create a female clone of her brother.
    I think if Betsy's character has evolved, she should choose both or neither. A person with power but without the right course is not a hero. A hero without the power is only talk.

    Brian has been a hypocrite at times and Betsy needs to do the job for him. I hope Betsy is finally able to understand this through her journey in the past and is able to make better decision than his brother.

    She wasn't chosen to be a hero but she can make herself a better one.
    Last edited by Psigal; 02-23-2021 at 12:12 AM.

  8. #323
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    Captain Britain Betsy may have a lot of potential. However, there are reasons we don't like her being CB up to now because it seems to neutralize all her previous development in the Asian body.

    Firstly, her personality changed greatly as she is no longer being a bad ass and lack confident. I don't really see the reason in this because their bodies aren't so much difference beside the skin and hair color. Also, the other mutants have already known this issue for a long time so I don't think there would be much embarrassment. The only reason I can thought of is, does Betsy think the Asian body is better than her original White body?

    Secondly, She seems to lose all the fighting skill of the Asian body and the prove is her 'fighting abilities' in the official power grid as Psylocke was 6 but dropped to 4 as Captain Britain. Does this mean she lost all her skill as Ninja as we have seen none in Excalibur?

    Thirdly, Telepathy is her mutant power and best trait. Usually, mutants with powerful telepathy comes with a weak body like Xavier, Jean, Emma...etc, so they needs to rely on their mind as their bodies are weak. But right now when Betsy given the power of CB by the amulet or starlight sword, she rarely use her mutant power anymore(mainly just for communication or make her brother behave) but rely on the CB power. However, none of the CB power is impressive so far that many people actually wonder if Betsy has all those CB power until we saw the boost in power grid of the official handbook.

    Lasly, remember her duel in X of swords, that is actually the most embarrassing moment in Betsy's history...We don't mind that she lost but please at least give her a good fight. From what I have seen, she used her shield to push her opponent once and then got shattered into pieces by the starlight sword. What the hell? Tini Howard can never be a good writer in Marvel Comics if she can't understand mutant abilities and write some good fights or clever use of them.

    So, unless the questions and issues above are answer and solved, I can't support her as CB. She was so great in Disassembled and that is the perfect Betsy/Psylocke in her original body that we have been looking for..
    Yes to this entire list. I'm really glad Betsy got the Captain Britain upgrade because it always felt like a natural choice for her but the execution is completely off.

    She doesn't feel like the Betsy we know, not the Asian one or the British one.

    I have no idea how her fighting skills dropped. Maybe to differentiate her from Kwannon but that's a pretty pathetic excuse.

    Ever since Betsy became CB, I have been dying to figure out what her new powers are and how she'll change her fighting style, but the book has done basically nothing to elucidate the situation and make clear how her powerset has even changed. Brian's powers were well defined but if we're only learning about Betsy's new powers from power grids in the official handbook, something is wrong in the main book.

    I am in shock that any Betsy fan could enjoy Excalibur and I haven't bothered to keep up with it lately because of how badly she's been portrayed. I also have no idea how Marvel didn't think this was the perfect project for Alan Davis or Chris Claremont, both of whom have proven they love and know this character. They've always told us that Betsy should have become Captain Britain so why not give the position to someone who understands that. While it's nice that a female writer was given the opportunity, that's not much of a plus if she fails to capture the character and defends the loss of her butterfly signature.

    And like you said, part of the problem is that we did get the definitive Betsy we've been asking for in Disassembled when she finally got her original body back. She had great interactions with other characters as well like Jean and how they would combine their powers. Then all that was erased for this drivel. Hickman has showed no interest in her whatsoever which is criminal since he is treating many other major X-Women favorites with as much dismissiveness like Jean and Storm. I have no idea how in this current phase of X-Men comics, Betsy wasn't the other X-Woman who was chosen alongside Jean to help save Storm in Giant-Size X-Men 1. Betsy is actually Storm's friend and they've spent plenty of time together on teams, but Marvel decided to throw in the fake blonde they've been pushing even though Storm has never even liked her and been physically, mentally, and spiritually assaulted and violated by her. Betsy losing her classic friendships and comraderies by being shunted off to a niche X-Book is inexplicable. As Captain Britain, she should be one of the leading mutants of the current X-Men era and take her place alongside the other X-Men greats like Xavier, Magneto, Jean, Storm, etc. but she's nowhere to be seen. Are we back in the 90s when she was just wallpaper?

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightmare View Post
    Now that I think about it, there was an easy out that would have satisfied most Betsy fans. If she had taken the Sword of Might when it was offered to her, Tini could easily have kept her personality similar to that of Psylocke. Explained that according to lore, those that pick the sword put might before right which if I understand it was Betsy M.O. before. Now that she's taken the Amulet of Right(which she destroyed) and the Starlight Sword(which may also be destroyed) it feels like she's tried to go from being Wolverine to Captain America. It's just too much of a personality shift, that in my opinion can't really be explained by getting a new body.

    Ideally she would have become more like Albion(Bran Bardic) who lived in a world of war and was the first Captain Britain to choose the sword. Instead of trying to create a female clone of her brother.
    I think part of the problem is that Marvel is treating her like Captain Marvel but the issue is that Betsy is not Carol Danvers. And Captain Britain is not Captain Marvel, specifically not Betsy's version of Captain Marvel. She is not all about law and order and duty like Carol or Steve. She is an action junkie and even as a child she wanted to play with swords compared to her bookish brother. The Sword of Might was the logical choice for her, especially since Betsy has made clear many times that she feels she should have been Captain Britain and she wonders why she was denied that opportunity when her brother seems like the last choice for it.

    It really does seem like when Marvel decided to make Betsy into Captain Britain, they were more interested in creating Captain Marvel 2.0 than in keeping the real Betsy around but in a new identity.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I am in shock that any Betsy fan could enjoy Excalibur and I haven't bothered to keep up with it lately because of how badly she's been portrayed. I also have no idea how Marvel didn't think this was the perfect project for Alan Davis or Chris Claremont, both of whom have proven they love and know this character. They've always told us that Betsy should have become Captain Britain so why not give the position to someone who understands that. While it's nice that a female writer was given the opportunity, that's not much of a plus if she fails to capture the character and defends the loss of her butterfly signature.
    Marvel seems have a thing that they want female to write or direct their 'Captain' woman titles. And sadly Betsy falls as the victim in it that we actually hope she just won't become Captain Britain anymore.

    So, as long as Marvel has narrowed their mind that only woman can understand woman or man can't understand woman. Things will be stayed in this way.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    Marvel seems have a thing that they want female to write or direct their 'Captain' woman titles. And sadly Betsy falls as the victim in it that we actually hope she just won't become Captain Britain anymore.

    So, as long as Marvel has narrowed their mind that only woman can understand woman or man can't understand woman. Things will be stayed in this way.
    That's what I figured. I wouldn't mind if it wasn't just performative activism on their part. I'm sure they are plenty of female writers who actually like and care about Betsy but it was more important to them to fulfill the Captain brand.

    It's so misogynistic on their part as well because we've had multiple Captain Americas and they're all allowed to be different and even Brian's Captain Britain in comparison to Steve's Captain America was allowed to be his own individual. Whereas with Betsy, it seems like they feel they have to stick to a rigid formula as a female Captain and she has to be cut from the same cloth as Carol. I wish Claremont or Alan Davis could get their hands on this book since Excalibur has never really worked without one of them at the helm.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I think part of the problem is that Marvel is treating her like Captain Marvel but the issue is that Betsy is not Carol Danvers. And Captain Britain is not Captain Marvel, specifically not Betsy's version of Captain Marvel. She is not all about law and order and duty like Carol or Steve. She is an action junkie and even as a child she wanted to play with swords compared to her bookish brother. The Sword of Might was the logical choice for her, especially since Betsy has made clear many times that she feels she should have been Captain Britain and she wonders why she was denied that opportunity when her brother seems like the last choice for it.

    It really does seem like when Marvel decided to make Betsy into Captain Britain, they were more interested in creating Captain Marvel 2.0 than in keeping the real Betsy around but in a new identity.
    I can feel the same way. And something even worse that Captain Britain isn't as powerful as Captain Marvel but is more bland than her in the whole Excalibur 15+issues of story.(But I would put it there is improvement over the latest 1 to 2 issues)

  13. #328
    Mighty Member Psyknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Yes to this entire list. I'm really glad Betsy got the Captain Britain upgrade because it always felt like a natural choice for her but the execution is completely off.

    She doesn't feel like the Betsy we know, not the Asian one or the British one.

    I have no idea how her fighting skills dropped. Maybe to differentiate her from Kwannon but that's a pretty pathetic excuse.

    Ever since Betsy became CB, I have been dying to figure out what her new powers are and how she'll change her fighting style, but the book has done basically nothing to elucidate the situation and make clear how her powerset has even changed. Brian's powers were well defined but if we're only learning about Betsy's new powers from power grids in the official handbook, something is wrong in the main book.

    I am in shock that any Betsy fan could enjoy Excalibur and I haven't bothered to keep up with it lately because of how badly she's been portrayed. I also have no idea how Marvel didn't think this was the perfect project for Alan Davis or Chris Claremont, both of whom have proven they love and know this character. They've always told us that Betsy should have become Captain Britain so why not give the position to someone who understands that. While it's nice that a female writer was given the opportunity, that's not much of a plus if she fails to capture the character and defends the loss of her butterfly signature.

    And like you said, part of the problem is that we did get the definitive Betsy we've been asking for in Disassembled when she finally got her original body back. She had great interactions with other characters as well like Jean and how they would combine their powers. Then all that was erased for this drivel. Hickman has showed no interest in her whatsoever which is criminal since he is treating many other major X-Women favorites with as much dismissiveness like Jean and Storm. I have no idea how in this current phase of X-Men comics, Betsy wasn't the other X-Woman who was chosen alongside Jean to help save Storm in Giant-Size X-Men 1. Betsy is actually Storm's friend and they've spent plenty of time together on teams, but Marvel decided to throw in the fake blonde they've been pushing even though Storm has never even liked her and been physically, mentally, and spiritually assaulted and violated by her. Betsy losing her classic friendships and comraderies by being shunted off to a niche X-Book is inexplicable. As Captain Britain, she should be one of the leading mutants of the current X-Men era and take her place alongside the other X-Men greats like Xavier, Magneto, Jean, Storm, etc. but she's nowhere to be seen. Are we back in the 90s when she was just wallpaper?
    I agree, especially with the part in bold. For all the hype surrounding her becoming Captain Britain, she is still coming across like wallpaper. It’s like Marvel decided they don’t have to put any real effort behind the character anymore, just give her an important sounding title, a new costume, plaster her image all over a ton of covers and give her a really long biography in that Marvel playbook and people won’t notice just how dull and insignificant she is now.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    That's what I figured. I wouldn't mind if it wasn't just performative activism on their part. I'm sure they are plenty of female writers who actually like and care about Betsy but it was more important to them to fulfill the Captain brand.

    It's so misogynistic on their part as well because we've had multiple Captain Americas and they're all allowed to be different and even Brian's Captain Britain in comparison to Steve's Captain America was allowed to be his own individual. Whereas with Betsy, it seems like they feel they have to stick to a rigid formula as a female Captain and she has to be cut from the same cloth as Carol. I wish Claremont or Alan Davis could get their hands on this book since Excalibur has never really worked without one of them at the helm.
    Actually Betsy and Kwannon have set a good example here:

    For the 15 issues of Excalibur, there is almost no character development for Betsy and we actually found her unfamiliar like a new character and lost interest on her. She should be one of the focus of the book but feels more like background girl.

    For only the first 5 issue of Hellions, Kwannon has already become her own character and a great one. A ninja mutant that is much more bad ass than Betsy(compare to Asian Betsy) was and you can already tell it is Kwannon in the Asian body but not Betsy.

    I actually don't care what gender the writer is as long as he or she or anything that can write. Also, I don't want to see one of my favorite Marvel character become the expense of the activism.
    Last edited by Psigal; 02-23-2021 at 02:20 AM.

  15. #330
    Fantastic Member Knightmare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    I think if Betsy's character has evolved, she should choose both or neither. A person with power but without the right course is not a hero. A hero without the power is only talk.

    Brian has been a hypocrite at times and Betsy needs to do the job for him. I hope Betsy is finally able to understand this through her journey in the past and is able to make better decision than his brother.

    She wasn't chosen to be a hero but she can make herself a better one.
    Yeah, you're not allowed to choose both. Why? Because what they represent are diametrically opposing views on how a hero should be. Also can't choose neither option, because then she can't be Captain Britain, her journey ends there and then.

    "A hero without power is only talk". Really? I think you'll find that is a bit of a short sighted statement.

    Also when was Brian a hypocrite? I'm not saying he hasn't been, just that I don't remember anything that stands out.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    They've always told us that Betsy should have become Captain Britain so why not give the position to someone who understands that

    As Captain Britain, she should be one of the leading mutants of the current X-Men era and take her place alongside the other X-Men greats like Xavier, Magneto, Jean, Storm, etc. but she's nowhere to be seen. Are we back in the 90s when she was just wallpaper?
    Who said Betsy should have become Captain Britain? Was is Davis/Claremont?

    Captain Britain should never lead an X-Team, regardless of who has the title. That's not what being Captain Britain is about. It's a very specific set of duties that has nothing to do with mutadom.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    The Sword of Might was the logical choice for her, especially since Betsy has made clear many times that she feels she should have been Captain Britain and she wonders why she was denied that opportunity when her brother seems like the last choice for it.
    That was explained to the current Excalibur run. Tini's explanation is that because she is a mutant, she'll never be excepted. Saturnyne explains that she's seen it on multiple Earths across the multiverse and it also ends in disaster. Eventually Betsy will have to make a choice between mutants/Krakoa or Britain/Otherworld and it would seem that she chooses mutants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psigal View Post
    I can feel the same way. And something even worse that Captain Britain isn't as powerful as Captain Marvel but is more bland than her in the whole Excalibur 15+issues of story.(But I would put it there is improvement over the latest 1 to 2 issues)
    Captain Marvel isn't more powerful than Captain Britain, especially now that the CB's power level is based on confidence. Brian for instance has already fought Carol in her binary form(there was no confirmed winner).

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