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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I think DC Superhero Girls, the animated series and shorts knocked it out of the park with the character. If they can make a Harley Quinn movie and a Stargirl series why not?
    This last point, definitely. The way things are going though, I'd say the best she can ever hope for is an HBO Max series of her own. Second best is her appearing on an HBO Max show as part of the JSA. Third best, a few guest spots in Stargirl, or an animated series of her own, or as part of a modern day JSA animated series, or a JLE animated show, done on an adult basis, like the best of B:TAS or JLU.

  2. #77
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    When it comes right down to it, Power Girl is a flawed, but deeply caring, decent, kind person who's a bit off the cuff at times, but very smart and nearly as good as she thinks she is, (which is about as good as it gets), at the superheroing job. She's courageous, but not fearless, makes mistakes, but more often is right, and these days more closely hews to Superman's ideals than many other heroes in DC.

    She comes across as someone you'd want to know in person, and not just for her looks or powers. It's because she's a good person who you could have a beer with and not feel uncomfortable. And she's one of DC's leader types.

  3. #78
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Which brings up an interesting dilemma. Karen is not just a T&A character; she's got depth and nuance and a rich characterization. But a part of all that is indeed exploring how she deals with the objectification and sexualization that comes with being who she is. Is that something to skip over in a theoretical live action performance? You can ignore all of that and the majority of Karen's character and life experience is still there, but it *does* remove one of her character's more interesting conversations. Or do you accept that this is part of her life and try to capture the dueling thematics of body positivity and objectification, running the risk of the entire production being written off as either male gaze fantasy or femnazi-ism?

    I mean, the casting call would be hilarious, if nothing else; Looking for white female, 20-28, to play empowered alien businesswoman/warrior/refugee exasperated by earthlings' response to her large bust. Minimum c-cup required.

    Alternatively, you could cast a heavier set woman as Karen; that keeps the impressive cleavage and body positive elements without making it (at a distance) seem so porn-y. But if you do that, you're also saying that body positivity is only for fat people, and that the struggle women like Karen deal with doesn't matter because they're pretty.
    My honest opinion would be to at least change her costume some. As it is, it could turn into jokes about it.

    I remember once saying the criticisms about objectification are more about how she is drawn than about her issues with objectification within the story. In the story, she wears a costume meant to draw attention to her more than average chest area and then whines when people look. The first response was, "Yes, just like in real life".

    BUT, I would argue that the story in a movie, assuming they go with the look she has become associated with, should explore the psychological factor that she does that on purpose, not to be lewd but because it has become her subconscious or not so subconscious Litmus test. She wants a guy she believes really cares about her and NOT for superficial reasons and so what she wants is a guy who doesn't keep sneaking looks "there". Of course, to test that, she wears stuff that makes not looking "there" border on impossible.

    She basically has a "testing" mentality. Far from making her confident or arrogant, her looks make her insecure.

    They could just go with what she was before all this objectification started and have her be a good looking young woman without the exaggeration. Or they could explore the issue. The problem is the irony of using objectification to get an audience for a story that derides objectification.
    Power with Girl is better.

  4. #79
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree. Tanya just circumvented the issue by having a circle instead of a hole. She can still have a voluptuous physique and have that be a part of the story. My thing is that these characters don't wear casual clothes, they wear uniforms, which have both a symbolic purpose and are functional. The hole is neither.

  5. #80
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Which brings up an interesting dilemma. Karen is not just a T&A character; she's got depth and nuance and a rich characterization. But a part of all that is indeed exploring how she deals with the objectification and sexualization that comes with being who she is. Is that something to skip over in a theoretical live action performance? You can ignore all of that and the majority of Karen's character and life experience is still there, but it *does* remove one of her character's more interesting conversations. Or do you accept that this is part of her life and try to capture the dueling thematics of body positivity and objectification, running the risk of the entire production being written off as either male gaze fantasy or femnazi-ism?

    I mean, the casting call would be hilarious, if nothing else; Looking for white female, 20-28, to play empowered alien businesswoman/warrior/refugee exasperated by earthlings' response to her large bust. Minimum c-cup required.

    Alternatively, you could cast a heavier set woman as Karen; that keeps the impressive cleavage and body positive elements without making it (at a distance) seem so porn-y. But if you do that, you're also saying that body positivity is only for fat people, and that the struggle women like Karen deal with doesn't matter because they're pretty.
    Honestly, I would treat it as a part of the character and not the focal point of her story arc. I would approach it the same way MCU does with Thor where you occasionally get scenes like the lady who smiles after bumping into him on the subway or Gamora massaging his muscles but the A-plot is not about Thor's attractiveness. The main story would be about Karen as a survivor of another world, CEO and chairwoman of the JSA, mentor to younger heroines and every now and then you get a scene where a character comments on her looks or glances at her but don't center the whole plot on boob jokes.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    When I consider the Witchblade comic and then who was cast in the television series, I have to say I think it's possible to get away from the silicon image, especially since going live action television or movies is usually what draws attention to a character for most people. In other words, since this would be Powergirl's first live action appearance, whoever plays her will set the standard for what she looks like. There have been some cosplay women at conventions that definitely fit the "larger" image. But can any of them act?
    The cosplayers are irrelevant unless they get past auditions for the tv show, Hollywood has a wide cast to choose from if she does make an appearance in any live action media. Melissa Benoist was a major get for Supergirl, being a movie actor, she was in Whiplash, and had a supporting role in Glee, among other things. Witchblade is a good example of a character made for fan service who was remade into a character with depth, Ron Marz went on to do this in the comics, too. Hiring a pretty face is a non-issue, every actor's attractive in Hollywood and many of them have talent - what hinders them is the writing. Adrienne Palicki would be perfect on a tv show or movie, she does both.



    They're going to turn down the fan service for live action, they did that with Supergirl's own show - it's not Smallville any longer.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I think DC Superhero Girls, the animated series and shorts knocked it out of the park with the character. If they can make a Harley Quinn movie and a Stargirl series why not?
    Thankfully they toned down the sensual image with Stargirl. Did you see the artist rendition of the image they wanted for her before we saw footage? She was a bombshell who looked like she was in her mid-20's.

  8. #83
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Hold up what are you talking about? Can you share the image?

  9. #84
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    My honest opinion would be to at least change her costume some.
    Sejic did a redesign of Karen's costume a while back and I really like how he handled the window in it;

    DC Power Girl.jpg

    The window is higher than usual, smaller than usual, and looks more like some standard fashion cleavage while still retaining the basic aesthetic of PG's costume. That's how I'd like to see it handled. Not just in film but in everything.

    The rest of the suit is great too, in my opinion, but it's the window I'm focusing on for this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Honestly, I would treat it as a part of the character and not the focal point of her story arc. I would approach it the same way MCU does with Thor where you occasionally get scenes like the lady who smiles after bumping into him on the subway or Gamora massaging his muscles but the A-plot is not about Thor's attractiveness.
    Oh Karen dealing with sexual harassment is definitely not A-plot material. It's a viable part of the character's conversation but not what you build a whole film around, unless you're trying to do a *very* different kind of superhero movie, anyway. I think the Thor comparison isn't too bad an example but it's usually too subtle for what I envision; Thor's looks don't really get in his way, or make people underestimate him or talk down to him or anything like that. It's just there, but Karen's looks are something she has to work her life around (to a point).

    The Captain Marvel film, despite having all the subtlety of a sledge hammer, hit the right balance, I think, where gender, objectification, etc., played into Carol's interactions in a realistic way without demanding all the attention or distracting from the main plot. Granted, that film didn't handle the topic with any nuance or grace but I think the impact and amount of screen time it took up, if we discount the execution, is about right for Karen.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Hold up what are you talking about? Can you share the image?
    This was official concept art for Stargirl.


  11. #86
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    That doesn't really seem more sensual than the show itself, at least to me. But then again, the actresss is ridiculously attractive and the character's comic accurate suit, without being explicitly sexual, still shows a lot of skin. I mean just look at how Stargirl looked in Smallville and Legends of Tomorrow

    7525f2b02d48d26ef0897235be8bc542.jpg
    928f6d39acaa87151cd876a75296d68d.jpg

  12. #87
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Sejic did a redesign of Karen's costume a while back and I really like how he handled the window in it;

    DC Power Girl.jpg

    The window is higher than usual, smaller than usual, and looks more like some standard fashion cleavage while still retaining the basic aesthetic of PG's costume. That's how I'd like to see it handled. Not just in film but in everything.

    The rest of the suit is great too, in my opinion, but it's the window I'm focusing on for this discussion.



    Oh Karen dealing with sexual harassment is definitely not A-plot material. It's a viable part of the character's conversation but not what you build a whole film around, unless you're trying to do a *very* different kind of superhero movie, anyway. I think the Thor comparison isn't too bad an example but it's usually too subtle for what I envision; Thor's looks don't really get in his way, or make people underestimate him or talk down to him or anything like that. It's just there, but Karen's looks are something she has to work her life around (to a point).

    The Captain Marvel film, despite having all the subtlety of a sledge hammer, hit the right balance, I think, where gender, objectification, etc., played into Carol's interactions in a realistic way without demanding all the attention or distracting from the main plot. Granted, that film didn't handle the topic with any nuance or grace but I think the impact and amount of screen time it took up, if we discount the execution, is about right for Karen.
    I kind of like the redesign of her suit. It actually might work better to put her in that costume and have objectification be a subplot. Or, have her be objectified in her secret identity. By objectification, I don't mean, "Guys are going to look". I mean objectification in terms of what they say and their attitudes.
    Power with Girl is better.

  13. #88
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    That doesn't really seem more sensual than the show itself, at least to me. But then again, the actresss is ridiculously attractive and the character's comic accurate suit, without being explicitly sexual, still shows a lot of skin. I mean just look at how Stargirl looked in Smallville and Legends of Tomorrow

    7525f2b02d48d26ef0897235be8bc542.jpg
    928f6d39acaa87151cd876a75296d68d.jpg
    She does look incredibly attractive though also incredibly young enough that admitting to finding her incredibly attractive feels dirty old man to me. But that be reality.

    I like the Smallville version and the other one. Alas, there is a certain element of modern super costumes, especially in live action, that feel a bit, "Well, is that a superheroine costume meant to give off a slight porno movie vibe OR a porno movie costume designed to give off a slight super vibe?"

    There is a point where trying to criticize objectification while blatantly selling itself through objectification becomes self-parody.

    Based on my profile picture, I clearly have no problems looking at Powergirl. Maybe that's objectification. Or it's just looking. I think the real problem comes when it gets accompanied by crude remarks and sexist attitudes and when it tries to rely on that with no meaningful story.
    Power with Girl is better.

  14. #89
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I'm the same age as her, but I do sort of find myself entering the phase where it becomes uncomfortable to find someone of a specific age attractive. I suppose same could be said of finding a much older woman attractive, but i don't care. Helen Mirren is a fine actress and interesting wokan, and has a smoking body.

    Any way, I like Sejic's design (did he just replace briefs with v cut panties?) but I still think the conversation can be had based solely on her body type and without the unexplainable uniform with a hole in it. Tanya Spears replaced it perfectlt in my opinion

    6020912-power-girl.jpg

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Any way, I like Sejic's design (did he just replace briefs with v cut panties?) but I still think the conversation can be had based solely on her body type and without the unexplainable uniform with a hole in it. Tanya Spears replaced it perfectlt in my opinion
    The conversation definitely can (and does) still happen whether Karen has the window or not. The window, and how large it is as well as where it's placed on her bust, heighten the discussion, but Karen's body type invites the objectification/body positive debate all on its own.

    And I agree, Tanya handled the visual perfectly well. She's a kid right? Cleavage would be creepy and wrong but the circle still evokes the Power Girl aesthetic. It works for her, but I feel like doing the same for Karen would almost be a cop out. I'm not saying the window *has* to be there, but a conversation about body positivity and what that actually entails, and how it bumps into objectification, has opened up around Karen and I think the best thing is to lean into and explore that. Just like Harley Quinn has opened up a conversation about domestic violence that should be had, and putting her back with the Joker would be an insult to the topic these stories are attempting (in their comic book-y way) to address.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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