The Avengers Appreciation 2021

[CosmiComic]

I don't think it's purely just a power fantasy from a male POV for a woman to want to feel strong, attractive, and appealing. I guess we could debate the nitty gritty of how that could look or be depicted but ultimately I think in a visual sense there can be enough commonality.

The most popular portrayals of She-Hulk were written by men, although I don't think they wrote her disingenuous to her gender or so she could appeal just to males.

I don't think any problems here are intentional. But men have been conditioned by society to think a certain way, and you can see that by how female comics characters are depicted. And male viewpoints were and are more prominent in the comics industry than female ones by far. So I can't be sure She-Hulk is the kind of power fantasy a woman would look to. Even within the male gaze, attractive varies.

So you don't think her She-Hulk form informs her personality, at all?

It does, but it doesn't mean her personality changes if her looks do so. Should she be insecure or lack confidence because she's not a "hot model"? Because that's not what makes up a person in the end

[JorgeJ77]

I don't think any problems here are intentional. But men have been conditioned by society to think a certain way, and you can see that by how female comics characters are depicted. And male viewpoints were and are more prominent in the comics industry than female ones by far. So I can't be sure She-Hulk is the kind of power fantasy a woman would look to. Even within the male gaze, attractive varies.



It does, but it doesn't mean her personality changes if her looks do so. Should she be insecure or lack confidence because she's not a "hot model"? Because that's not what makes up a person in the end

Okay, can she just go back to being her and not be like the Savage Hulk? Because this is pretty much what's everyone's saying.

[Frontier]

I don't think any problems here are intentional. But men have been conditioned by society to think a certain way, and you can see that by how female comics characters are depicted. And male viewpoints were and are more prominent in the comics industry than female ones by far. So I can't be sure She-Hulk is the kind of power fantasy a woman would look to. Even within the male gaze, attractive varies.

I guess we'd have to ask female fans .

It does, but it doesn't mean her personality changes if her looks do so. Should she be insecure or lack confidence because she's not a "hot model"? Because that's not what makes up a person in the end

It has though? In terms of how Aaron's handled it. But I feel like that goes into her choosing to be Jennifer Walters instead of She-Hulk 100% of the time.

[CosmiComic]

Okay, can she just go back to being her and not be like the Savage Hulk? Because this is pretty much what's everyone's saying.

Um, ok? Maybe?

I guess we'd have to ask female fans .

That's actually good thinking.

It has though? In terms of how Aaron's handled it. But I feel like that goes into her choosing to be Jennifer Walters instead of She-Hulk 100% of the time.

Huh? sorry, I don't quite follow. You mean, she should choose to be Jennifer if she's more comfortable with her appearance?

[Frontier]

Huh? sorry, I don't quite follow. You mean, she should choose to be Jennifer if she's more comfortable with her appearance?

Yeah, basically.

[CosmiComic]

Yeah, basically.

Ok. but why can't she be comfortable in any form? That could be a positive character development, to show that she can accomplish what she wants no matter how she looks

[Nomads1]

Not to pour gasoline in a fire that already seems to be going out, and that I basically avoided, but Super-heroes are, in general, idealized forms. They are physical creatures that should be in top physical shape. Why is it so offensive to women (or whoever) to have pleasing idealized physical forms, but men being unbelieavably buff is seen as the norm? Honestly, I'm a 50 something year old, who has always nurtred a bit of a belly, and I don't feel at all offended by the unattainable physical conditioning of, say, Captain America, The Falcon, Cyclops, Black Panther, Daken, Northstar, Namor, etc... I also don't droll over idealized female physical forms, even if they put to shame every woman I've ever met, nor do I resent them for that. Storywise, the physiques often make sense, and I find it, overall, pleasing. It's not a modern phenom, just look at art over the centuries. Michelangelo's David, the Venus de Milo, just to name a couple. Physical perfection is often appealing, and Comics is a visual medium and also a form of art (even if I, personally, have trouble finding beauty in the work of MANY creators nowadays). However, discussions of art and personal preference aside (and there is no right nor wrong when it comes to personal artistic preference), in Jen's case, as others have so well argued, it's an integral part of who the character is, and I think Aaron's take on her is awful. Carry on.

Peace

[CosmiComic]

Not to pour gasoline in a fire that already seems to be going out, and that I basically avoided, but Super-heroes are, in general, idealized forms. They are physical creatures that should be in top physical shape. Why is it so offensive to women (or whoever) to have pleasing idealized physical forms, but men being unbelieavably buff is seen as the norm? Honestly, I'm a 50 something year old, who has always nurtred a bit of a belly, and I don't feel at all offended by the unattainable physical conditioning of, say, Captain America, The Falcon, Cyclops, Black Panther, Daken, Northstar, Namor, etc... I also don't droll over idealized female physical forms, even if they put to shame every woman I've ever met, nor do I resent them for that. Storywise, the physiques often make sense, and I find it, overall, pleasing. It's not a modern phenom, just look at art over the centuries. Michelangelo's David, the Venus de Milo, just to name a couple. Physical perfection is often appealing, and Comics is a visual medium and also a form of art (even if I, personally, have trouble finding beauty in the work of MANY creators nowadays). However, discussions of art and personal preference aside (and there is no right nor wrong when it comes to personal artistic preference), in Jen's case, as others have so well argued, it's an integral part of who the character is, and I think Aaron's take on her is awful. Carry on.

Peace

Um, because men are the ones who tend to write these comics. You don't know why some women don't like to be sexualized? Really? because none of them are idealized by being strong and powerful, like men are. And when they are depicted that way, fans complain about the changes

[Frontier]

Ok. but why can't she be comfortable in any form? That could be a positive character development, to show that she can accomplish what she wants no matter how she looks

This was pretty much addressed in Dan Slott's She-Hulk run.

Um, because men are the ones who tend to write these comics. You don't know why some women don't like to be sexualized? Really? because none of them are idealized by being strong and powerful, like men are. And when they are depicted that way, fans complain about the changes

I think "sexy" is fine so long as there is more to the character than just that and not primarily just sexualization (I'm thinking of Cate Blanchett talking about it in a speech), and...She-Hulk isn't strong and powerful ?

[Nomads1]

This was pretty much addressed in Dan Slott's She-Hulk run.

I think "sexy" is fine so long as there is more to the character than just that and not primarily just sexualization (I'm thinking of Cate Blanchett talking about it in a speech), and...She-Hulk isn't strong and powerful ?

Apparently not. Better agree to disagree.

Peace

[Panic]

I think there's a difference between having an idealised form and having an overly sexualised portrayal. For me it's down to the 'camera shots' used, the costume design, and the posing.



On the subject of superheroines in the movies: I've never had any problem with Marvel picking attractive women to play superheroines, but I really hate the way that Scarlett Johansson as BW has a suit that zips all the way up to the neck, yet constantly has it unzipped to display cleavage. The X-Men did the same thing, and it really annoys me because as a straight male I feel it's aimed at me, but I just find it tacky and embarrassing, but I guess a lot of guys must like it if the studios keep doing it. Some things come down to personal preference I guess.

[CosmiComic]

This was pretty much addressed in Dan Slott's She-Hulk run.

Ok. I've mostly read her in Avengers so I need to check that out

I think "sexy" is fine so long as there is more to the character than just that and not primarily just sexualization (I'm thinking of Cate Blanchett talking about it in a speech), and...She-Hulk isn't strong and powerful ?

She's not drawn in the typical way men are. Which makes sense to some extent because she's a woman, but no man is as over-muscled as superheroes are anyway, and not everyone thinks that's the idea man

I think there's a difference between having an idealised form and having an overly sexualised portrayal. For me it's down to the 'camera shots' used, the costume design, and the posing.

The problem is there is no one ideal

On the subject of superheroines in the movies: I've never had any problem with Marvel picking attractive women to play superheroines, but I really hate the way that Scarlett Johansson as BW has a suit that zips all the way up to the neck, yet constantly has it unzipped to display cleavage. The X-Men did the same thing, and it really annoys me because as a straight male I feel it's aimed at me, but I just find it tacky and embarrassing, but I guess a lot of guys must like it if the studios keep doing it. Some things come down to personal preference I guess.

I never liked that either.

[Frontier]

Ok. I've mostly read her in Avengers so I need to check that out

Which Avengers runs?

She's not drawn in the typical way men are. Which makes sense to some extent because she's a woman, but no man is as over-muscled as superheroes are anyway, and not everyone thinks that's the idea man

So I guess it comes down to a difference of opinion

The problem is there is no one ideal

So, again, difference of opinion .

[charliehustle415]

Not to pour gasoline in a fire that already seems to be going out, and that I basically avoided, but Super-heroes are, in general, idealized forms. They are physical creatures that should be in top physical shape. Why is it so offensive to women (or whoever) to have pleasing idealized physical forms, but men being unbelieavably buff is seen as the norm? Honestly, I'm a 50 something year old, who has always nurtred a bit of a belly, and I don't feel at all offended by the unattainable physical conditioning of, say, Captain America, The Falcon, Cyclops, Black Panther, Daken, Northstar, Namor, etc... I also don't droll over idealized female physical forms, even if they put to shame every woman I've ever met, nor do I resent them for that. Storywise, the physiques often make sense, and I find it, overall, pleasing. It's not a modern phenom, just look at art over the centuries. Michelangelo's David, the Venus de Milo, just to name a couple. Physical perfection is often appealing, and Comics is a visual medium and also a form of art (even if I, personally, have trouble finding beauty in the work of MANY creators nowadays). However, discussions of art and personal preference aside (and there is no right nor wrong when it comes to personal artistic preference), in Jen's case, as others have so well argued, it's an integral part of who the character is, and I think Aaron's take on her is awful. Carry on.

Peace

idealized for whom?

[Triniking1234]

I know some of you are being nice but you all are just going in circles now plus it has nothing to do with the book.