The Avengers Appreciation 2021

[Witchfan]

Is this another reason why we don't see Hawkeye a lot these days other than Hawkeye Freefall ?

I think after the Hawkeye streaming show airs they are going to kill off Clint and make Kate the only Hawkeye. The next time you see Hawkeye in the Avengers, it will be Kate.

[Frontier]

I think after the Hawkeye streaming show airs they are going to kill off Clint and make Kate the only Hawkeye. The next time you see Hawkeye in the Avengers, it will be Kate.

I mean, they undersell Clint over Kate enough as is. Why add injury to insult?

[K7P5V]

I think after the Hawkeye streaming show airs they are going to kill off Clint and make Kate the only Hawkeye. The next time you see Hawkeye in the Avengers, it will be Kate.

That's very sad news. (T^T)

Since Kurt Busiek was doing some work for Marvel again, I thought he'd come up with something new for Clint.
But, it seems unlikely he'll be given the chance


R.I.P.

[mreddie]

I doubt they will kill off Clint but it's very frustrating the team is just the All Stars and even then, they are barely used.

[LAWtoyoto 432]

That's very sad news. (T^T)

Since Kurt Busiek was doing some work for Marvel again, I thought he'd come up with something new for Clint.
But, it seems unlikely he'll be given the chance


R.I.P.

They can't since Clint is way more popular than Kate Bishop, even the Avengers game which features Kate Bishop as the first playable Hawkeye won't boost the player game.

[ETMike1988]

So Aaron ignores Tamaki's work be making Jen savage again.
Ignores Slott by sending Stark back in time during Slott's story and making Howard evil.
Ignores Ewing with this Mummy Phoenix crap.

Editors must be in comas.

Is that mean Aaron is the new Bendis!?

[Nomads1]

They can't since Clint is way more popular than Kate Bishop, even the Avengers game which features Kate Bishop as the first playable Hawkeye won't boost the player game.

And not for lack of trying. The dumbing down of Clint in recent years, in favor of the "great at everything without even trying, however bland as hell" Kate Bishop has been revolting. It's a really sad trend of comics nowadays. They create a subpar replacement for a great character of the past, and, since the new guy/gal/whatever, can't hold a candle to a character that has had decades of great writing and development to win the hearts of the fandom, the only way for them to force some relevance is to tear down the original (sometimes, just the previous) character, making him incompetent, a boor, or just plain unlikable. IMHO, it's a terrible strategy, that pushes away faithful fans and doesn't attract enough replacements for them. In the past, writers had more care not to smear the original characters, when introducing new ones.

Peace

[LAWtoyoto 432]

And not for lack of trying. The dumbing down of Clint in recent years, in favor of the "great at everything without even trying, however bland as hell" Kate Bishop has been revolting. It's a really sad trend of comics nowadays. They create a subpar replacement for a great character of the past, and, since the new guy/gal/whatever, can't hold a candle to a character that has had decades of great writing and development to win the hearts of the fandom, the only way for them to force some relevance is to tear down the original (sometimes, just the previous) character, making him incompetent, a boor, or just plain unlikable. IMHO, it's a terrible strategy, that pushes away faithful fans and doesn't attract enough replacements for them. In the past, writers had more care not to smear the original characters, when introducing new ones.

Peace

The same problem for every DC Legacy heroes like Wally West and Cassandra in flavour to the silver age boner like Barry Allen Flash and Barbara Batgirl.

[Nomads1]

The same problem for every DC Legacy heroes like Wally West and Cassandra in flavour to the silver age boner like Barry Allen Flash and Barbara Batgirl.

Actually, yes. I can't speak for Cassandra/Barbara/Batgirl. Never was a fan of the character (though I'm a HUGE fan of the Oracle/Barbara Gordon character). However, the Flash (Barry Allen), was one of my favorite DC characters right up to COIE. I like the straight arrow type o character. At first, I hated the Wally West Flash, under Mike Baron and Marv Wolfman. I found the character highly unlikable, in his own book, and as bland as ever in the Teen Titans. However, all that started to change when William Messener Loebs came aboard and started to give some depth to the highly flawed character. Wally was made much more sympathetic due to his feeling of inadequacies to living up to the idealized version of the perfect hero of his late uncle. Waid came in right after Loeb, and cemented that idea with the great storyline The Return of Barry Allen (still considered by many, myself included, the greatest Flash story ever). Wally was not as fast as Barry simply because of a mental block, due to his fear of replacing his uncle/idol, in the eye of the public as THE Flash. Until he had no other choice but to do so (with a perfect line delivered to the Reverse-Flash. I won't spoil it to anyone here who hasn't read it). After that, the sky was the limit. The Speed Force was introduced, with his long history in the super-human community, Flash became the all-around nice guy who everybody trusted, and he became one of the most competent speedsters ever, and all this, it's worth noting, without ever undercutting Barry's role as the DCU's saviour and unofficial saint. I still loved Barry, but Wally became my favorite Flash.
Tim Drake is another great exemple that this can be well done. Drake was highly competent, but the original (and still revered as the best Robin ever) was always at his side, training, him, supporting him, and even getting to be the Batam to his Robin, for a while.
DC did this legacy thing much better than Marvel ever did, especially in the 90's. The JSA passing the batton to the JLA, and then becoming it's own legacy team, Kyle Rayner learning the ropes on the fly, while standing in the shadow of the Greatest Green Lantern that ever lived, who had als been responsible for the fall of the Corps (a lot of people complain that it was not very respectful to Hal, but I think it was well done, and he did redeem himself at the end, during the Final Night). Conner Hawke, Cassie Sandsmark (though I didn't like her much when she started out in Byrne's WW. But she was one of my favorite's in PAD's Young Justice), Ryan Choi and others.
Of course, most of this was ruined when DC decided to bring back Barry, Hall, Ollie, etc... and destroy most of what the had spent the last 15 -20 years building. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
My point is, you don't have to tear down what's already there to build something new.

Peace

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Is that mean Aaron is the new Bendis!?

Is? Has been. Look what he did to Thor. Turned him into a wimp. Jen is her cousin. His BC stuff will take until 2030 to complete. Yeah I’d say he’s the new Bendis. All he needs now is to add Wolverine and Spidey to the team to boost sales and he will effectively be Bendis.

Kate Bishop will never be more popular than Clint.

[Nomads1]

Actually, IMHO, Marvel once did a great legacy character. Captain Monica Rambeau Marvel. I mean, her connection to Mar-Vell was pratically inexistent. Her powers and looks had nothing to do with the Kree's. The only sideways link was the fact that she was serving alongside former comrades of the man, and then she went on to find out more about him, and to honor him. But Mar-Vell was still the Protector of the Universe, the Scourge of Thanos, a hero to both, the Kree, even though he stood against them, and Earth. Unfortunately, not many writers could handle Monica well, and an editorial push to side-line her in favour of other characters ended up spoiling her early carreer. Then, along came a sucession of heirs to Mar-Vell's legacy (some I even liked, a lot), and she lost the right to be his successor. Still, it was like Johnny Storm, a legacy done right.

Peace

[Digifiend]

In fact, Monica is so good, that in Crisis on Infinite Earths, published a few years after Monica's debut, DC created an ersatz - the second Doctor Light. They just made her Japanese instead of black so she didn't look like a complete copycat, but she basically has the same powers. Literally the only other difference is that the first Doctor Light was a villain and not a hero.

[Tien Long]

Hey all. Just wanted to know your thoughts on the Avengers during Bendis' run, specifically between Secret Invasion to Siege. This was the era when Bendis was fully in charge of the Avengers and when they were their most divided. For me, I still collected issues, but my rate of consumption went down. Bendis' long form of storytelling was getting to me. Lots of dialogue with little action. And this was the time when OMD/BND was hitting Spider-Man, so it hurt whenever I read New Avengers issues.

Looking back though, I see the premise. The "regular" Avengers were fragmented and eventually Norman Osborn would take charge. Some team of the Avengers was always on the run. Plus the moral center of Cap or the presence of Thor was missing. That was a position the Avengers were never in before. Also, you saw a lot of street heroes as part of the team:



Part of me felt that was cool. The other part of me felt seriously, this is the team that could handle Kang or Ultron? What got me the most was the art. Lenil Yu and Billy Tan were artists then, both of whom are great. But, well, when I look at this:



Or this:



It just feels cluttered, y'know?

Anyway, your thoughts? Was this the Avengers to you?

[Tien Long]

As an addendum, this was what I mean by cluttered. Here we have Bucky mulling over his role as Captain America while dispatching a bunch of the Hood's goons:



Steve Epting, the regular illustrator for Captain America at the time, illustrated it. But, I really can't make out what's going on. The layout, the narration, they get in the way. It's great introspection to be sure, but the other elements aren't working for me.

[Frontier]

Hey all. Just wanted to know your thoughts on the Avengers during Bendis' run, specifically between Secret Invasion to Siege. This was the era when Bendis was fully in charge of the Avengers and when they were their most divided. For me, I still collected issues, but my rate of consumption went down. Bendis' long form of storytelling was getting to me. Lots of dialogue with little action. And this was the time when OMD/BND was hitting Spider-Man, so it hurt whenever I read New Avengers issues.

Looking back though, I see the premise. The "regular" Avengers were fragmented and eventually Norman Osborn would take charge. Some team of the Avengers was always on the run. Plus the moral center of Cap or the presence of Thor was missing. That was a position the Avengers were never in before. Also, you saw a lot of street heroes as part of the team:



Part of me felt that was cool. The other part of me felt seriously, this is the team that could handle Kang or Ultron? What got me the most was the art. Lenil Yu and Billy Tan were artists then, both of whom are great. But, well, when I look at this:



Or this:



It just feels cluttered, y'know?

Anyway, your thoughts? Was this the Avengers to you?

I think this was where it was clear Bendis was trying to shift the team to being more street-level (his bread and butter) and wasn't as much a natural at team books as other past Avengers writers (in my opinion).