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  1. #721
    Astonishing Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    An advanced review of Avengers 750:
    https://butwhythopodcast.com/2021/11...ers-issue-750/

    I agree with his summation of Aaron's Avengers:

    Aaron’s run on Avengers has been a bit of a mixed bag; while he’s turned out a couple of solid storylines such as “War of the Vampires” and Heroes Reborn, his grasp on the ensemble dynamics that usually go with the Avengers is less than stellar. He also throws a lot of big ideas at the audience, and while the Avengers do assemble to “face the threats that no single superhero could withstand” it feels overwhelming at times.
    Last edited by Witchfan; 11-29-2021 at 11:24 AM.

  2. #722
    Incredible Member strathcona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecoffeeman View Post
    I'd love to see Jim Zub or Kelly Thompson take a crack at the main title after Aaron.
    Agreed. I think Zub really needs to be given the title. Let him choose his own roster (no editorial saying that certain characters have to be on the team), and give him at least 12 issue guaranteed, or even better 25. Let him build up his story and don't just take it away from him before it has a chance to come to fruition, like with Thunderbolts and Champions.

  3. #723
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I wasn't old when Bendis took over (I was in my twenties) and found his run to be too street level, not at all like the Avengers and hated his dialog. If someone feels that destroying the Avengers is what makes them more appealing, it feels like they just didn't like the Avengers. And maybe just wanted to read something like the Heroes for Hire.

    Him ignoring previous canon to destroy the Avengers to implement his own team didn't feel "natural" either. It just felt forced.
    Fair enough, but when I say "younger readers" I meant someone in their teens.

    I didn't care about canon at all (still don't) and found the earlier stuff boring. I mean for a typical teenager would you be attracted to the old guard Avengers or the New Avengers with Spider-Man and Wolverine?

    This may speak to Bendis' popularity with the big execs and why he gets all of the flagship titles - his talent to attract new younger readers.

    I was not at all interested in Avengers until I saw Spidey & Wolvie on the cover, because before that I was all about the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Batman.

    But I recognize why old heads would dislike his penchant of changing status quo (I'm still salty about Jon Kent)
    Last edited by charliehustle415; 11-29-2021 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #724

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Fair enough, but when I say "younger readers" I meant someone in their teens.

    I didn't care about canon at all (still don't) and found the earlier stuff boring. I mean for a typical teenager would you be attracted to the old guard Avengers or the New Avengers with Spider-Man and Wolverine?

    This may speak to Bendis' popularity with the big execs and why he gets all of the flagship titles - his talent to attract new younger readers.

    I was not at all interested in Avengers until I saw Spidey & Wolvie on the cover, because before that I was all about the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Batman.

    But I recognize why old heads would dislike his penchant of changing status quo (I'm still salty about Jon Kent)
    Yes, because I was a teenager when I first got into the Avengers. I didn't care at all about Wolverine. And I liked Spidey well enough but he wasn't a main attraction for me. I'm also a woman so guys might be different in that regard. I think they would relate probably more to Wolverine and Spidey than Jan and Wanda or Jen for instance.

    What Bendis turned the team into was not the Avengers. So it's appeal was just to people that didn't like the Avengers. I'm glad at least the movies now have gotten people more acquainted with the team itself. It's not the team that was uninteresting.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  5. #725
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecoffeeman View Post
    I'd love to see Jim Zub or Kelly Thompson take a crack at the main title after Aaron.
    Thompson wrote the West Coast Avengers recent series, and I have to say, I sure was not impressed. Plus, she wrote that arc in which Captain Marvel "kills" all the Avengers to "save" them. So, I'm gonna give a hard pass on her. As for Zub, I don't feel strongly for nor against. I'd be open to it.

    Peace

  6. #726
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    I agree with those who say "New Avengers" was a good book up through "Siege." But Bendis and Marvel didn't have to lead into it by showing such contempt for the classic Avengers.

    The idea that Wanda had been crazy all through the Busiek run (and either hallucinated or created Agatha telling her about "chaos magic"), along with wiping out so many of the core old-school Avengers characters, wasn't necessary to set up the new book, it was just a way of saying that the old Avengers were uncool and people who like them aren't welcome.

    Ironically, but luckily for the book, Bendis ended up sticking with one of the most important points of the old-school Avengers, that the book should not be an all-star book but should have B and C-listers on the team who can get character development. And in general I think Bendis's Avengers feels a lot more like the Avengers than Hickman's; Hickman has no interest in the Avengers franchise or history, but one of the themes of "New Avengers" is the difference between the way the Avengers used to be and the way they are now.

    I think even Bendis has acknowledged that the way he came into the franchise by breaking all the toys was not really the best way to handle it, and he did make sure to restore most of the classic Avengers by the time he left, though Hickman didn't end up using them.

  7. #727

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    I'll admit that I haven't really kept up with the Avengers at all in recent years. Has Aaron's run been good enough to read in trade paperbacks for dirt cheap from eBay, at the very least? I'd like to continue where I left off some years ago before he came onto the title, but I've heard middling things.

  8. #728
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Yes, because I was a teenager when I first got into the Avengers. I didn't care at all about Wolverine. And I liked Spidey well enough but he wasn't a main attraction for me. I'm also a woman so guys might be different in that regard. I think they would relate probably more to Wolverine and Spidey than Jan and Wanda or Jen for instance.

    What Bendis turned the team into was not the Avengers. So it's appeal was just to people that didn't like the Avengers. I'm glad at least the movies now have gotten people more acquainted with the team itself. It's not the team that was uninteresting.
    Is there a particular statue quo that you would define as "The Avengers"?

    I always thought they were always a rotating cast of B to C list heroes (in the past)?

  9. #729
    Mighty Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Is there a particular statue quo that you would define as "The Avengers"?

    I always thought they were always a rotating cast of B to C list heroes (in the past)?
    For me, it’s less of a matter of who should be in the lineup as opposed to who shouldn’t be. By bringing Wolverine in, and to a lesser degree Spidey, the book moved away from being “Avengers” and instead turned into “Marvel All-Stars”. Some would argue that if should always have been an all-star book but I find that concept much less interesting. It’s the primary reason why I haven’t picked up the book since Aaron came on board.
    “The Scarlet Witch is the only thing that will scare them. It’s the only thing they’ll respect.” - Hope Summers, Avengers vs X-Men #7

  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Is there a particular statue quo that you would define as "The Avengers"?

    I always thought they were always a rotating cast of B to C list heroes (in the past)?
    Yeah, I would say that the Avengers have a core cast, just like the X-Men, of B and C-list heroes who come and go but traditionally carried most of the character development.

    The Wasp, The Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, The Vision, Hawkeye, Hank Pym (under whatever code name), Wonder Man, Hercules, the Black Widow, maybe even the Beast. You look at any Avengers run from 1965 to 2005 and there is usually at least two of those characters on the roster, and despite the rotating cast, many of them stayed in it for a long time, e.g. Wanda was almost a regular member of an Avengers team (East or West Coast) for something like 75% of those 40 years.

    It's very different from the Justice League, where what fans think of as the core cast is mostly big solo stars plus Martian Manhunter. Avengers started as an all-star book but then a year later it got revamped into a book about B-list ex-villains, and that's sort of been the dual identity the book has had since then.

  11. #731
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Yeah, I would say that the Avengers have a core cast, just like the X-Men, of B and C-list heroes who come and go but traditionally carried most of the character development.

    The Wasp, The Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, The Vision, Hawkeye, Hank Pym (under whatever code name), Wonder Man, Hercules, the Black Widow, maybe even the Beast. You look at any Avengers run from 1965 to 2005 and there is usually at least two of those characters on the roster, and despite the rotating cast, many of them stayed in it for a long time, e.g. Wanda was almost a regular member of an Avengers team (East or West Coast) for something like 75% of those 40 years.

    It's very different from the Justice League, where what fans think of as the core cast is mostly big solo stars plus Martian Manhunter. Avengers started as an all-star book but then a year later it got revamped into a book about B-list ex-villains, and that's sort of been the dual identity the book has had since then.
    I'm showing my age, but I never even knew Herc was part of the Avengers until I read Waid's most recent Avengers run. I alway thought he was associated with Hulk because of Pak's stellar Incredible Herc run.

    See I would never have thought of the Avengers having a core cast, because they either hav solo titles or part of another hero's solo book.

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I'm showing my age, but I never even knew Herc was part of the Avengers until I read Waid's most recent Avengers run. I alway thought he was associated with Hulk because of Pak's stellar Incredible Herc run.

    See I would never have thought of the Avengers having a core cast, because they either hav solo titles or part of another hero's solo book.
    Nothing wrong with that. But yeah, old-school Avengers fans (not all of whom are old, but a lot of us are) know Hercules as an Avenger because he was there in the '60s and then in the '80s he was there for many years including in the famous "Under Siege" storyline, and then he was a regular for much of the '90s. He was originally added to the book because Stan Lee didn't want any star characters to be regulars any more, so when Roy Thomas asked to bring back Thor, Lee told him to use Hercules instead.

    So even though they changed the lineup a lot, they would usually have the same basic mix: a couple of stars with their own books, some B-list characters who had been there for a long time, and some newbies. That's how the Busiek run started out: the "big three" stars, several long-serving members (Vision, Wanda, Carol, Hawkeye), and two newcomers (Justice and Firestar).

    That's why "Avengers Disassembled" was largely about getting rid of the B- and C-list members who were part of the old core cast. Wanda goes nuts, Wasp unwittingly causes her to go nuts and ends up in a coma, Vision dies, Hawkeye dies, and of course the first thing that happens is the mansion gets blown up. It's the way of saying the Avengers is no longer about this bunch of B-listers living in the mansion with the butler.

  13. #733
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Nothing wrong with that. But yeah, old-school Avengers fans (not all of whom are old, but a lot of us are) know Hercules as an Avenger because he was there in the '60s and then in the '80s he was there for many years including in the famous "Under Siege" storyline, and then he was a regular for much of the '90s. He was originally added to the book because Stan Lee didn't want any star characters to be regulars any more, so when Roy Thomas asked to bring back Thor, Lee told him to use Hercules instead.

    So even though they changed the lineup a lot, they would usually have the same basic mix: a couple of stars with their own books, some B-list characters who had been there for a long time, and some newbies. That's how the Busiek run started out: the "big three" stars, several long-serving members (Vision, Wanda, Carol, Hawkeye), and two newcomers (Justice and Firestar).

    That's why "Avengers Disassembled" was largely about getting rid of the B- and C-list members who were part of the old core cast. Wanda goes nuts, Wasp unwittingly causes her to go nuts and ends up in a coma, Vision dies, Hawkeye dies, and of course the first thing that happens is the mansion gets blown up. It's the way of saying the Avengers is no longer about this bunch of B-listers living in the mansion with the butler.
    This is really great information I never knew a lot of this; thanks gurkle you're giving me a lot of context as to why so many of the old heads disliked Bendis' Disassembled run.

  14. #734

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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Yeah, I would say that the Avengers have a core cast, just like the X-Men, of B and C-list heroes who come and go but traditionally carried most of the character development.

    The Wasp, The Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, The Vision, Hawkeye, Hank Pym (under whatever code name), Wonder Man, Hercules, the Black Widow, maybe even the Beast. You look at any Avengers run from 1965 to 2005 and there is usually at least two of those characters on the roster, and despite the rotating cast, many of them stayed in it for a long time, e.g. Wanda was almost a regular member of an Avengers team (East or West Coast) for something like 75% of those 40 years.

    It's very different from the Justice League, where what fans think of as the core cast is mostly big solo stars plus Martian Manhunter. Avengers started as an all-star book but then a year later it got revamped into a book about B-list ex-villains, and that's sort of been the dual identity the book has had since then.
    This pretty much.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  15. #735
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I miss Avengers Mansion.

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